BoFlex

November 2nd, 2023 at 11:47 PM ^

Embing for board:

"They aren't allegations. It happened. There's video evidence. There's ticket purchases you can track back. We know for a fact they were at a number of our games." - Ryan Walters on Michigan's sign stealing scandal

— Sam King (@samueltking) November 2, 2023

Matt Rhule too, I guess

On3’s @Andy_Staples spoke with Nebraska HC Matt Rhule on the Michigan Sign-Stealing Scandal:

“As we tell parents, ‘We’re going to teach them how to be young men.’ I think the first thing we teach them is integrity and honesty.”

— On3 (@On3sports) November 2, 2023

 

I was secretly hoping that the silence from the majority of B1G coaches was them quietly agreeing that this "sign-stealing" thing was being overblown, but I guess not.

JHumich

November 3rd, 2023 at 12:01 AM ^

It'll be just like Deflategate.

We'll beat them all even worse when the supposed advantage is gone.

Part of the faux outrage is precisely because Michigan DOES do better than any other school at producing great men. If I had a son who was going to play major college football, I'd want him to play for Jim, because the sort of man that he becomes would be the most important aspect of the decision.

Buckeyeelite

November 3rd, 2023 at 10:04 AM ^

I had to log in just to respond to you. My god "great men" LOL you are the epitome of a tool bag. Your school produces as many "great men" as it does not so great men. This is why everyone wants Michigan to burn. You truly believe the shit that comes out of your mouth. It is incredible yet ridiculous at the same time. 

"If i had a son who was going to play major college football, I would want him to play for Jim" HAHAHA why so Jim can sleepover at your house and you can jerk him off? 

If you had a son remotely close to being able to play college football you would want him to go where he is going to succeed. Not to your fantasy school because you want to blow the coach. 

God damn I love Michigan fans. They never seem to disapoint. 

Bosch

November 3rd, 2023 at 11:27 AM ^

And what are you the epitome of?

Lurking a rival team's message boards, getting butt hurt because fans of that team are perhaps a little biased towards that team, and then announcing to that message board that you just had to respond.  I'm sure that your circles are proud of the man that you are.  

BoFlex

November 3rd, 2023 at 1:31 PM ^

Let’s slow the roll on that a little lol:

“I find it deplorable.” said Lou Holtz regarding Michigan’s sign-stealing scandal. “I’ve been coaching a long time… when I first started out I used to be a scout, I would go scout the other team. “Then they said no scouting, you can’t go… so there hasn’t been any scouting for years.”

NeverPunt

November 3rd, 2023 at 12:51 AM ^

It’s just posturing for posturing’s sake. What do you want them to say? We all do it? It’s part of the game? This is a chance to stand on your high horse and claim holier than thou ground. Of course they will. They are supposed to be developing young men and blah blah blah. No one wants to see how the sausage is really made and if someone gets caught with rats in their sausage, the other companies are definitely going to say that’s wrong and they would never 

Romeo50

November 3rd, 2023 at 7:02 AM ^

Well if you had any integrity or honesty you would acknowledge you all do it as encouraged by your league that doesn't want what the NFL and HS already use to solve it. Your league also told the playoff teams in person scouting was ok for the biggest games and in reviewing the advance scouting rule found its advantage negligible to the point of a slap on the Baylor coach and a strong lean to doing away with the arcane rule itself.

Do better at your job and voila you too may 7 years later reap the benefits. Lots of ass-kickings await that day after all you weren't born on 3rd base.

BoFlex

November 3rd, 2023 at 7:43 AM ^

Your league also told the playoff teams in person scouting was ok for the biggest games and in reviewing the advance scouting rule found its advantage negligible

I am hesitant to use this as a “smoking gun” argument because in both cases the eventual outcome were not positive in our favor. The CFP immediately added a rule against in-person scouting, so they only allowed it because of an oversight. The NCAA ultimately shot down and disagreed with the recommendation to remove the rule too.

Hensons Mobile…

November 3rd, 2023 at 9:30 AM ^

The CFP immediately added a rule against in-person scouting, so they only allowed it because of an oversight. The NCAA ultimately shot down and disagreed with the recommendation to remove the rule too.

That may be correct, but that's not quite how I remember it from the one Yahoo article that came out about it.

The CFP had no rule about it initially. Why not? Probably because nobody gave a shit or ever thought about it.

When OSU asked the NCAA about it, the NCAA asked the CFP, and ultimately the CFP decided (for 2022), yeah it's fine. They and the NCAA had an opportunity in 2022 to tell OSU it wasn't okay, but said the opposite.

I think the NCAA basically said, we don't have a rule about in-person scouting at the CFP one way or the other, so this is up to the CFP. The CFP justified their decision based on (a misunderstanding of) the NCAA rule about allowing in-person scouting during NCAA tournaments.

The CFP then reversed course after 2022 and decided to not allow it for future years. No explanation given, but probably to align with the actual NCAA rules.

Nevertheless, as you say, it's not a smoking gun argument. All that really shows is no one actually really cares about it one way or the other. They only addressed it because OSU brought it up, probably because they wanted to catch us in the act in the CFP for their dossier. Sad for them, we were allowed to in the CFP (if we even did, who knows).

growler4

November 3rd, 2023 at 8:56 AM ^

In fairness, if the allegations involved MSU, Penn State, or Ohio State, many on this board would be up in arms as might Michigan's staff.

I think it best to have an investigation, see if rules were indeed broken and by whom, see if the staff was involved, and try to gauge if, indeed, any competitive advantage was gained by any alleged rule violation.

If so, then decide what action may be appropriate. If not, say so and move on.

Hensons Mobile…

November 2nd, 2023 at 11:47 PM ^

"We've had to teach our guys a new language in terms of some signals and we'll operate different offensively," Walters said. "You might see us in a huddle for the first time this season. So it is what it is, but we're excited to go play and I think it would make for a great story."

Hey genius, if you're so afraid of people stealing your signs in a no-huddle offense, then that should have always been a concern because sign stealing is allowed and everyone who cares about their football program does it.

Um1994

November 3rd, 2023 at 1:20 AM ^

He already has an excuse.  His team is TERRIBLE.  They got worked by Syracuse; the SU QB ran for 195 yards and passed for 184.  Yeesh!  SU is currently 0-4 in ACC Conf play.  Sign stealing is legal, Mr. Walters.  And a team with Michigan's players does not need in person scouting to beat that sorry team.

MaizeBlueA2

November 3rd, 2023 at 12:58 AM ^

The Athletic already ran an anonymous poll and I believe something like 17 coaches said yes, and 33 lied no.

Not sure if the exact number and too lazy to go back and look, but it has been asked.

But yes, most teams steal signs. Except they're Grant Newsome to Josh Gattis role, remember when Newsome was always next to Gattis in the booth?

Most teams hid the person up there, or they make them part of the social media content team.

Teams have very elaborate in-game scouting techniques, but what Stalions did was egregious. The fact that people are trying to compare his actions to "but everyone does it" is sad...Michigan has never been that in my lifetime.

For me, it's not that "but everyone else does it." I just don't think it's that big of a deal.

Michigan passed the ball 4 times versus OSU in 2021. When Donovan Edwards had his two big runs last year, they were obvious run situations. Just like the first CJ TD was an obvious passing situation. 

I just think it's incredibly lazy to think signs had that much to do with the outcome, anyone with a brain knew that Michigan was going to run in those situations (or pass on 3rd down and long).

Stealing signs isn't how Cam Martinez ended up running back to Michigan while trying to cover a "WIIIIIIIIDE OPEN" Cornelius Johnson.

So that's my point, what Stalions did is fucking ridiculous and it's embarrassing. But he had NOOOTHING to do with OSU not filling a run gap in a game they're losing with Michigan 75-85 yards away from the endzone.

DennisFranklinDaMan

November 3rd, 2023 at 1:54 AM ^

I'm not as confident as you are. OSU, in both 2022 and 2021, failed to score much at all in the second half. It's at least conceivable, surely, that that was at least in small part because our defense knew what plays they were calling.

Please don't get me wrong. I don't, personally, believe that that's what happened. But I think claiming as a matter of empirical fact that we didn't benefit at all from sign stealing (if we did it in the first place), is not a particularly effective argument to the rest of the country right now. Why would we have done it — why would we have a sign stealer on staff — if it's impossible to benefit from it at all? 

I like the arguments supporting the position that we didn't actually cheat at all, or that if we did, it was Conor Stalions in a sort of rogue operation. One or both of those seem quite likely to be true, and either would essentially get us off the hook (the former more than the latter, obviously, but still). But saying, essentially, "sure we broke the rules, sure we cheated, but it didn't help us at all, because knowing the other teams' plays in advance simply does not help," isn't, in my opinion, a very compelling argument.

JonnyHintz

November 3rd, 2023 at 5:12 AM ^

If we knew what plays they were calling, why did we only stop them from scoring in the second half? Wouldn’t it have been an all game thing? 
 

Sign stealing in game is LEGAL. So it seems more likely, in your scenario, that we picked up on their signals throughout the game and applied them effectively in the second half. Which is, again, entirely legal. Add in the fact that it’s been well-documented that OSU changed their signals in 2022. 
 

The NCAA itself nearly overturned the rule in 2021 because it gave “minimal or no competitive advantage.” Largely, because everyone has a designated staffer whose sole job it is to watch the opposing sidelines and try to decipher their signals. There’s also a reported network of “comparing notes” between Big Ten staffs. Which is itself very common in college football (I remember a story from early 2022 about UM and Georgia comparing notes on Alabama in the CFP). 
 

"sure we broke the rules, sure we cheated, but it didn't help us at all, because knowing the other teams' plays in advance simply does not help," isn't, in my opinion, a very compelling argument.
 

Here’s my theory on that. The fact that EVERYONE tries to do this, with varying degrees of success, is what makes the advantage of doing so very minimal. But by NOT doing it, you’re putting yourself at a competitive DIS-advantage. It’s not an advantage if everyone does it, it’s a level playing field. If you don’t do what everyone else is doing, it’s an uphill battle.

 

Where Stalions went wrong (I’ll hesitate to say “Michigan” until there’s some evidence showing this went higher than a rogue support staffer) was skirting along the grey areas of the rules in his quest to accomplish his goals. Do I think Michigan is the only school to have someone on staff trying to find loopholes and skirting the rules to find an advantage somewhere? Absolutely not. Hell, I’d wager Michigan is far from the only school to have someone on staff (under their own desire or directed from the program) to attend or film games of opponents. 

Blinkin

November 3rd, 2023 at 6:07 AM ^

And regardless of signs, Ryan Day is one of the more predictable coaches in CFB. He ALWAYS runs screen passes out of 3rd and 4th and short. His team blows at power running, so it's not even a bad strategy for him necessarily, but it's predictable enough that even casual fans like me pick up on his tendencies. Hell, FRAMES of all people blew up a 4th and short screen pass from OSU 2 weeks ago, everyone knew what was coming in that situation, signs or no. 

goblu330

November 3rd, 2023 at 8:28 AM ^

Hmmm.  He doesn’t run screen passes, does he?  He throws a hitch or two and just allows the WR to work on the edges, but shit I can’t remember OSU running ANY true screens under Day.

He should talk to Al Borges about tunnel screens.  They are really finicky and require unrealistically good timing from 4 players AND they never really gain much yardage.  Really good play to have in the bag.

BlueMk1690

November 2nd, 2023 at 11:49 PM ^

We're getting more outspoken hate in CFB than all the killers, pimps, rape and domestic violence enablers or fraudsters combined. We should embrace the notoriety for it exposes the hypocrisy of these clowns.