NCAA Opens Investigation Into UM Scouting Opp and Stealing Signs
More than a rumor....ugh
October 19th, 2023 at 12:45 PM ^
Sign stealing has nothing to do with HH's 5 TDs, to be blunt. Sign stealing is why Ojabo and Hutch were able to tee off on Stroud. Sign stealing isn't why Cornelius Johnson broke two tackles to run down the field to paydirt, or why DE was able to break off 2 back breaking runs to put the game away.
It MAY have been why Cornelius Johnson was "WIDE OPEN" but...considering the rest, I think the contribution seems limited. Maybe it's why we dominated Penn St tho.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:49 PM ^
It's not the sigh stealing that's the problem here. It's sending analysts to other teams game, which NOBODY does.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:53 PM ^
And did Michigan do that?
October 19th, 2023 at 12:56 PM ^
The article says "coaches this season became aware of sign stealing." We're talking about ECU, UNLV, BGSU, RU, NU, Minnesota and IU.
ECU didn't have games we could scout since it was their first game. RU, NU, Minnesota and IU all had success on offense for a drive that was suddenly stopped - doesn't sound like sign stealing or even great scouting.
So this just doesn't pass the sniff test, and on its face is ridiculous.
October 19th, 2023 at 1:12 PM ^
IU was so concerned about it that they fired their OC and came up with a new game plan just so Michigan's sign-stealing was ineffective.
/s
October 19th, 2023 at 3:06 PM ^
A current popular method to combat sign stealing is to use 3 players to relay signs. One wears a yellow hat, one wears a green hat, one wears a blue hat. It won’t be obvious to the sign-stealers which one is live. If you’ve scouted the team beforehand, you can work out what the signs mean. So you spend a drive or two playing vanilla trying to figure out which hat is live. If your opponent is dumb enough not to mix that up during the game, that’s on them.
My suspicion is that when the teams share film with each other, they don’t include sideline shots of the three sign signalers. You need someone watching the game in person to get that detail.
This is all very NFL-level stuff that started with the Patriots. I would not be surprised to find out the Ravens use something like this to counter the Pats. Harbaugh and the Ravens have a symbiotic relationship. It’s not a stretch for a paranoid opposing coach to conjecture such a situation. Before casting judgment, I will wait to see what evidence the NCAA has.
October 19th, 2023 at 1:49 PM ^
So do people think UM hates an analyst enough to send him to watch Rutgers-NW to start the year? Because that's what the article lists as a team that could be complaining. Also, we don't honestly know what other teams do but Texas, for example, has well over 50 "analyst"-type guys and I'm sure they are all doing a variety of random shit.
October 19th, 2023 at 1:53 PM ^
Literally every program has guys that’s job is to personally scout one team all year and write up reports and whatnot.
that former Penn State tight end that works for BiG10 network and does stuff with Jake Butt admitted to it on a twitter post several weeks ago.
October 19th, 2023 at 2:30 PM ^
Yeah, I just can't imagine that somehow this is a unique loophole that Harbaugh and UM have discovered where they send a guy to a game to scout future opponents.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:37 PM ^
Ahh who cares. I say fuck it and break even more rules.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:39 PM ^
Could we be forced to vacate wins over this?
October 19th, 2023 at 12:49 PM ^
I don't understand the down votes. I couldn't care less about if Michigan actually did this. I don't know much about this rule and I'm just hoping they can't vacate wins over something like this.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:57 PM ^
It's a good question. I don't like the line that "Michigan State was notified of the investigation Monday." Why, exactly?
October 19th, 2023 at 1:02 PM ^
I did notice that and found it amusing and odd.
October 19th, 2023 at 1:01 PM ^
No corresponding penalty is listed.
Article is not long or paywalled. I suggest reading it.
October 19th, 2023 at 2:44 PM ^
I wondered this as well. Sorry for the downvotes you got!
October 19th, 2023 at 12:39 PM ^
This is DUMB if Michigan gets caught for it. This is a rule that NOBODY breaks because it's so obvious and you can get any game film you want (unlike recruiting rules, etc.).
Michigan will be made an example of if true (vacated wins, etc.)
October 19th, 2023 at 12:41 PM ^
I am so curious about the evidence they may have to actually open up an investigation. They have a picture of someone wearing a Michigan hat at one of those games.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:42 PM ^
Nobody does it? The linked article specifically says Clemson was well known for doing it. What are you talking about?
October 19th, 2023 at 12:48 PM ^
Right, but that's not the alleged problem. Stealing (or decoding) an opponent's signs during a game is not against the rules. However, the rules prohibit teams from pre-scouting their opponents in-person. The NCAA has accused Michigan of the latter, not the former.
October 19th, 2023 at 1:03 PM ^
The tickets are available to the public, so not I'm not sure why this is a rule. I can see if someone broke into or filmed a private facility. But the tickets are available to anyone, you and I can both go to Columbus and attempt to discern each team's signs.
October 19th, 2023 at 1:11 PM ^
According to the article, the rule dates back to 1994. As with many of these obscure rules, its origins appear linked to parsimony. Small schools could not afford (or did not want) to pay for staffers to attend other teams' games and do advance in-person scouting. Instead of choosing between trying to keep up with richer schools or foregoing the advantage, they outlawed the practice. It's the same mindset that generates the potential new rule outlawing photoshoots during recruiting visits.
October 19th, 2023 at 1:12 PM ^
The article said it was a rule as a cost save, I would guess it was unequal for poorer programs who can't afford as much travel cost. But I can't imagine this is easy to prove even if it's happening. As you said, tickets are available to the public, and people who are interested in college football attending games isn't illegal.
I get that sending a coach to another team's game with a camera would be a problem, but it seems like almost anything short of THAT level of egrigiousness would be impossible to prove? What's the line between "illegal scouting" and "person interested in college football goes to a game?"
October 19th, 2023 at 1:27 PM ^
My guess is that they would have Michigan if they could prove one of the two prohibited things took place: sending a staffer or "friend of the team" to scout away games against upcoming opponents, or recording/obtaining video footage of an upcoming opponent's play signals.
Absent actual evidence of Michigan sending someone in a work capacity to scout future opponents in person or the actual video footage of opposing teams signs being in a Michigan coach's possession, I'm not sure if they have a leg to stand on here.
October 19th, 2023 at 3:59 PM ^
It's a rule because the NCAA members (including Michigan) voted to make it a rule.
October 19th, 2023 at 4:14 PM ^
I mean it's dumb if an MLB pitcher gets caught with pine tar smeared on his arm on the mound. That doesn't mean every time an opposing team's manager asks an ump to check the pitcher that the pitch is actually doing what the manager suspected them of doing.
They could have broken rules, or it could be the only thing that was broken were the feels of less talented teams. We won't know until the NCAA delivers a non-transparent ruling on their non-transparent investigation supported by evidence they refuse to release.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:39 PM ^
It’s not illegal who cares. Finally acting like a big boy program and you can see the results on the field over the last three seasons. Fuck MSU OSU PSU and anyone else with a complaint about this. Steal every last damn sign and stuff it down their throats. Everyone wants to act offended as soon as Michigan starts playing like everyone else.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:45 PM ^
Stealing signs isn’t illegal per say…it’s understandable if you can figure out your opponent’s tendencies. “We are confident a run is coming here, but we’ll play it as a pass” said no coaches ever. HOW you steal signs is the issue, especially if it involves in-person scouting, which isn’t permitted.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:40 PM ^
Seems like something that a lot of teams do, and heck, isn't even against the rules. But if MI is stupid enough to get caught, or if they were sending people in-person, man, WTF... Just hope this doesn't ruin this season
October 19th, 2023 at 12:41 PM ^
Because it's Michigan this will be discussed on-air for every game from here on out.
NCAA has a serious axe to grind - what a bunch of losers.
UGH
October 19th, 2023 at 2:18 PM ^
Yes, this smells badly of an unmitigated attempt to smear Harbaugh's reputation, regardless of whether anything actually happened. It's a pretty obscure rule violation that's very hard to prove, yet they go out of their way to notify the world and MSU that they've started this investigation. As you say, there is someone at the NCAA in a position of power that absolutely hates Michigan/Harbaugh.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:43 PM ^
It feels like basically 99% of every NCAA rule is made of gray areas and maybe 1% is clearly-defined:
Sign stealing is not technically prohibited and has a long and colorful history as part of the game. Scouting opponents in person has been prohibited since 1994. Whether the NCAA believes Michigan was using staffers or others who may be loyal to the program is unknown. So, too, is whether information was detailed via video or some other means or if head coach Jim Harbaugh is involved.
The rulebook does express the need for coaches to follow the so-called “Football Code” and states that “only the highest standards of sportsmanship and conduct are expected of players, coaches and others associated with the game.” It further lists numerous examples of unethical and unsportsmanlike conduct but sign stealing is not among them.
Ah, yes. The "rule" is that you must follow "Football code". What is the "football code"? Just follow the highest standards of "sportsmanship and conduct"
October 19th, 2023 at 12:46 PM ^
Michigan against the world.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:47 PM ^
So Kansas got 3 year probation for what they did. Let's do a proportional response- Michigan accepts 2 hours of probation and let's be done with it
October 19th, 2023 at 12:47 PM ^
Let me see if I get this right.
The allegation is that you had somebody associated with the program go to the other team's games and either take notes or better yet, film their sideline signals and then, figure out what the signals were so you could steal them during your game. And, its the doing it in person that is the issue.
Quite the diabolical plan. Kill Moose and Squirrel.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:51 PM ^
that just reeks of stupidity and/or laziness of those teams to not change up their signals from week to week
October 19th, 2023 at 12:48 PM ^
My read on this is that we might be getting another drip from whatever that former recruiting guy said to the NCAA, since I assume these claims aren't from the first 6-ish games of the year. I haven't seen the actual accusations so not sure the scope but this feels not unlike a prosecutor throwing everything he has against someone to see if anything sticks. So it's the burger thing, it's watching some videos of a guy working out, it's possibly "sign stealing, but not in a way we like". Mind you, this is the same NCAA that just said Kansas was cool even though they had blatant violations for years.
It's part of the deal, I guess, with Michigan. UM is willing to act like the NCAA isn't full of shit so the NCAA is going to milk that cow for toughness until UM stops listening to them.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:57 PM ^
From the article it looks like 2 of our opponents this year accused us of sign stealing.
"Two of Michigan's opponents this season told Yahoo Sports they became aware that Michigan knew their play signs."
October 19th, 2023 at 1:04 PM ^
Sure. But you're allowed to know their play signs. It's how you got them that has rules around it. I agree the article is implying that two opponents are saying we illegally stole signs, but it doesn't actually say that.
October 19th, 2023 at 1:18 PM ^
It seems almost impossible to know how someone knows something. In any case, teams could change their signs weekly to totally negate it anyway.
October 19th, 2023 at 1:54 PM ^
It seems almost impossible to know how someone knows something.
We're not talking about knowing whether Harbaugh lied or misremembered. This isn't a mind-reading exercise. There could easily be a paper trail that pretty conclusively shows they broke this particular rule.
Let's all hope there isn't such evidence, either because they didn't break the rule or they're smart enough to not leave the paper trail.
October 19th, 2023 at 2:17 PM ^
If there is a paper trail they deserve to be punished for being stupid. If no trail and just allegations fuck off NCAA
October 19th, 2023 at 1:34 PM ^
I thought this at first, but it's ambiguous. Could be that two of those opponents became aware due to the NCAA telling them about their investigation and were told that Michigan knew their play signs.
At this point, we aren't sure how those opponents "became aware" of something as definitive as this. It could well be that the NCAA is the common source for both of those teams' "awareness".
October 19th, 2023 at 1:43 PM ^
See, I read that as some teams saying UM seemed to know their signs, not that they were accusing them of stealing. If the NCAA just got these accusations then they likely had to have come from the first couple of games since I doubt the NCAA got a complaint from Indiana on Monday and then moved on it Thursday.
That's why I assume it had to have been beforehand, especially when it includes possibly "stealing signs" of future CFB opponents - I doubt ECU or BGSU's staffs would have tried to see if a guy with a big UM hat on was staring at the sidelines of a Georgia-Vandy game.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:49 PM ^
Michigan is 6-0 and ranked No. 2 in the country heading into a rivalry game Saturday at Michigan State. The Spartans staff was notified of the situation earlier this week.
The yahoos at Yahoo Sports can't even count to 7-0.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:49 PM ^
https://bigten.org/news/2023/10/19/general-big-ten-conference-statement.aspx
Late Wednesday afternoon, the Big Ten Conference and University of Michigan were notified by the NCAA that the NCAA was investigating allegations of sign stealing by the University of Michigan football program. The Big Ten Conference has notified Michigan State University and future opponents. The Big Ten Conference considers the integrity of competition to be of utmost importance and will continue to monitor the investigation. The Conference will have no further comment at this time.
So it's true the NCAA is investigating. But nothing more than that in here.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:50 PM ^
Unless they can prove Michigan transmitted this to players on the field in real time, I'm not sure I see how this is problematic for Michigan other than just the optics of it.
Sure, MSU/OSU boards are going to bash Michigan to death over this, but Harbaugh could've stepped on an earthworm and they would've bashed him for that, too.
If its proven that this was done electronically then its a rule break and it should be handled accordingly. Otherwise.....whatever. You can't tell me this is the worst thing going on in college football right now.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:52 PM ^
The NCAA only investigates Michigan because their administration, for some unknown reason, still views the NCAA rules as legit. Such bullshit.
Never mind the programs committing actual violations, let's go after Michigan because they haven't told us to fuck off yet.
October 19th, 2023 at 12:53 PM ^
Not sure how this can be proved. NCAA vs Harbaugh Part 2 the saga continues.
Feels like the NCAA is going to keep coming at Harbaugh full force until they can get him.
October 19th, 2023 at 1:11 PM ^
I'd be happier to see harbaugh dismantle the NCAA than to win a national championship.