ESPN’s David Hale: Sign stealing just part of the game
I know many of you are vowing never to read ESPN again, but it appears perhaps the narrative is shifting:
Inside the sideline vs. sideline battle to hide, decode and steal signals (lack of Oxford comma in the original)
A couple of salient points:
The day after the game, cleaning crews made their way through the visiting locker room, and lo and behold, there was [Brent] Pry's original game script, taped back together.
Some of you may remember Brent Pry from his days at PSU; this anecdote was from his time at Louisiana-Lafayette.
Michigan's alleged schemes might have broken specific NCAA rules against in-person scouting and using technology to tape opponents, but the quest to get a leg up by having a little inside information is ubiquitous and, according to many coaches, just a normal and acceptable part of the game.
Still getting the technology rule wrong, but overall a reasonable take.
“Everybody's stealing signals on game day," said NC State coach Dave Doeren. “[…] There's a lot of ways you can do all that, but the way I look at it is, it's on us as coaches, just like baseball, to change up signals all the time. It's just part of the deal."
You think? Gee, it’s amazing what coaches will say when they know they’re being quoted by name.
"Most people in baseball laugh at what's going on in football now," said one longtime MLB manager. "Make better signs! If somebody's stealing your signs, you've got s---ty signs."
If even the managers of Major League “Follow the Unwritten Rules” baseball are laughing…
And, finally, one last tidbit, albeit anonymous:
(Notable given Michigan's place in the headlines: One assistant who spoke to ESPN said his team switched to wristbands against Ohio State because they were aware the Buckeyes were particularly adept at getting signals.)
I look forward to the protestations from Eleven Warriors already… “But! But! That was fair because it was from TV, but doing the same thing without a TV is the worst scandal in the history of mankind!”
November 9th, 2023 at 9:32 AM ^
The narrative is absolutely not shifting on TV. Mike Greenberg just put up a graphic comparing Harbaugh's record through 2020 and Harbaugh's record from 2021-23, then denied he was suggesting it was due to sign stealing, but he clearly intended to leave the impression that it was due to sign stealing. He asked Finebaum about it and they discussed how Harbaugh was about to get fired in 2020, but "something has clearly changed" since then. This was shortly after Heather Dinich said it's not even clear that what OSU and Rutgers did with Purdue was against the conference's sportsmanship policy.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:34 AM ^
I really think we need to investigate why MSU suddenly got good from 2013-2015. Clearly no team can improve without cheating
November 9th, 2023 at 10:40 AM ^
I know you're joking but that was touched on in the rainy-day dossier that one poster mentioned the other day. Aligns with rumors we heard at the time, too....
November 9th, 2023 at 10:58 AM ^
Roid rage comes before the fall
November 9th, 2023 at 9:34 AM ^
and it has nothing to do with Harbaugh basically overhauling his staff....
November 9th, 2023 at 9:48 AM ^
Or generational talents…
Michigan has gotten All-American level production out of several guys over the past few years that we couldn’t say the same for the years prior; Hutchinson, Ojabo, Olu Oluwatimi (and the back to back Joe Moore OL), and now Corum and JJ McCarthy…
November 9th, 2023 at 5:27 PM ^
Plus serious depth at many positions where it was lacking before.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:35 AM ^
If anyone really believed this, they would bet all their money *against* Michigan because the Vegas spreads haven't changed. I mean they must be smarter than the oddsmakers on how many points Stalions was worth
November 9th, 2023 at 10:08 AM ^
yup - this is it. I wrote the same thing earlier but lower on the response chain.
To summarize - money talks and bullshit walks.
There is a lot more of the latter than the former out there.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:36 AM ^
I guess they forgot that Mike MacDonald came in and overhauled the defense.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:06 AM ^
And then they got rid of Gattis and Harbaugh went back to being Harbaugh on the ground. Oh, and Sherrone Moore built back to back, Joe Moore award winning lines. Why do SEC announcers always feel like improvement comes through cheating?
November 9th, 2023 at 10:23 AM ^
“Why do SEC announcers always feel like improvement comes through cheating?”
Because clearly they have a lot of experience in that covering all of the SEC teams.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:36 AM ^
That 2020 team was full of underclassmen.
Dear Mike Greenberg, if you even remotely did your homework you would come to the conclusion that Michigan lost in 2020 due to having incredibly young players who would soon become veterans in 2021 and 2022.
Or, skip that, do the usual and hop on a mic and just say whatever shit comes to mind.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:35 AM ^
Moreover, it was during a pandemic and the entire season was topsy-turvy.
Had we had a normal spring and summer, with guys able to practice/work out normally, and didn't have Dylan McCaffrey, Nico Collins and our safety coach (!) opt out, that team would probably have been in the 8-5/9-4 range.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:54 AM ^
You know which team(s) practiced through the restricted time though, don't you?
November 9th, 2023 at 11:09 AM ^
A glance at the standings can give us an idea.
November 9th, 2023 at 12:58 PM ^
Right. Just like Iowa has a good team every 3 years when their young players are seasoned veterans (and Ferentz’s contract is coming up for renewal). Or is it that Iowa steals signs only once in 3 years?
November 9th, 2023 at 9:39 AM ^
Mike Greenturd, Paul Finebum, and Hater Dinich... Three people who've never played a (real) sport competitively.
Funny thing is, any and everyone who has that's chimed in thinks this whole thing is ridiculous and much to do about nothing.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:42 AM ^
They're also three people who've never been in my kitchen.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:02 AM ^
Or Cliff Claven's...
November 9th, 2023 at 10:02 AM ^
Used this one last week, +1 SDJ
November 9th, 2023 at 10:20 AM ^
Correcting your typo.... Finebum
November 9th, 2023 at 9:40 AM ^
This is so infuriating. So what they're saying is that everyone has signs (Dinich seems to accept that the other schools had the signs) but Michigan having signs made them better but other teams having signs made no difference?
November 9th, 2023 at 9:42 AM ^
Apparently. The cognitive dissonance is strong…
November 9th, 2023 at 9:41 AM ^
Three things...
1. C'mon man, they won't backtrack until the NCAA says "Nothing to see here, move along." They have invested too much time in one sided rumors, that it will actually take a legislative body to say something to shut them up.
2. I absolutely hate that they keep crapping on Harbaugh and the entire school when there's nothing that shows anybody knew what Connor was doing. If there's one thing I wish the school could have said was, "Hey, this guy took advantage of us as well."
3. Dinich is an IU alum. I'm not saying she's biased against Michigan, but it looks like the whole conference is biased against us.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:46 AM ^
Dan Orlovsky calmly pointed out that Michigan has had 11 players drafted on day 1 and 2 of the last two drafts...Only Bama, Georgia, and OSU had more. He suggested that just mayyyybe the change is in our talent level the last 3 years (this one included).
November 9th, 2023 at 10:01 AM ^
Maybe the difference is that everywhere Harb has gone he has produced championship level teams that compete. Are they missing that this guy has a recipe for winning? Period!!!
November 9th, 2023 at 11:19 AM ^
Every single former player on Get Up has said this is no big deal and Michigan is just talented. I wonder if that signals anything
November 9th, 2023 at 9:47 AM ^
Prosecutor: "Is it true that you're a lying scumbag who murdered your own wife and would bulldoze your own mother if there was a profit in it for you?"
Defense: "Objection!"
Prosecutor, winks at jury: "Withdrawn."
November 9th, 2023 at 9:48 AM ^
Mike Greenberg is still working? Did he consult Golic?
November 9th, 2023 at 9:50 AM ^
Greeny probably wouldn't consult with someone he stabbed in the back.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:48 AM ^
I saw this segment as well this morning but thought the best side of the debate came from Dan Orlovsky. He talked about how well Michigan has played, scored, and sent high quality draft picks to the NFL. The other commentators only provided single data points (loss to TCU because they changed their signs and Finebaums line that Michigans record would be tainted if we win the CFP).
The smart football people know the truth. The overall narrative is changing. Hopefully it will make a difference with the B1G commish.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:49 AM ^
The ESPN narrative is a huge outlier right now. Unfortunately, the mouse still rules sports media.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:00 AM ^
Not sure why, but the Athletic is still hanging on to the same narrative as well right now.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:56 AM ^
Next time any jackass uses this "look how much better Harbaugh has done since 2020" argument, first punch them in the throat for being stupid, and then next display these statistics to them.
Jim Harbaugh at UM 2015-2020: 49-22, 69.0% Win
Jim Harbaugh at UM 2021-Present: 34-3, 91.9% Win (a 22.9 percentage-point improvement in win %)
Kirby Smart at Georgia 2016-2020: 52-14, 78.8% Win
Kirby Smart at Georgia 2021-Present: 38-1, 97.4% Win (a 18.6 percentage-point improvement in win %)
Therefore, if the "you're winning more now than you did the few years earlier, therefore you must be cheating" argument holds, Georgia is definitely cheating. While his improvement in win % is slightly smaller than Harbaugh's, Smart has lost only one game in almost three full seasons, but was losing about three per season in the 5 years before that. I mean, he MUST be cheating, right? RIGHT???
November 9th, 2023 at 10:43 AM ^
And what about San Diego, Stanford, and the 49ers? There was no Connor Stalions around for any of that.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:56 AM ^
Oh, is the 20-21 improvement the new talking point? I was hosting a trivia night yesterday and a guy seated right next to my audio setup was basically shouting this.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:57 AM ^
What's really troubling to me is that this has gotten to the point where this neg. PR campaign is targeting the players. Now Blake Corum has to answer questions from reporters about his relationships with Stallions. There's nothing to suggest anything improper is going on, (even if he does have a business relationship with him) he is at liberty to do that, just like you or I. It still hasn't been determined that Stallions has done anything wrong but the mere mention of him associated with a player somehow makes his relationship with Corum nefarious? GTFOH!!! He was on the staff and they likely crossed paths and perhaps have some relationship. OMG, go after Harb. if you wanna, he can handle media scrutiny and has the best lawyers in the business, but just leave our kids out of it.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:01 AM ^
Yeah...I agree that the narrative is not really changing. Its somehow morphed into this double standard of:
- Everyone does it and it isn't that big of a deal OR that big of a competitive advantage, so what are we doing here?
- BUT WHAT HARBAUGH 'SANCTIONED' IS STILL CLEARLY CHEATING AND MICHIGAN IS ONLY GOOD NOW BECAUSE OF IT AND THERFORE DESERVES TO HAVE EVERY GAME SINCE HE WAS HIRED VACATED
Listening to or reading most people's takes on this is still infuriating.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
Makes sense. They hate Jim.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:44 AM ^
This is the dumbest narrative. They seem to forget that Michigan was good for five years before 2020, got new coordinators in 2021, and had a 5 star QB come in for the first time in forever that year
November 9th, 2023 at 11:40 AM ^
What some of the commentary points to (IMO) is that a lot of commentators make their money without understanding the nuts and bolts of the game. I have long suspected it's the case with Finebaum, Dinich, and a lot of the rest of this crowd. (Has anyone Dinich or Finebaum analyzing plays?) Mostly, they skim along the surface, highlighting the National Enquirer-level stuff, keeping more people involved than would ever be possible if the price of entry were understanding the impact of the spread on football, RPOs, whatver. It's taken years of surfing this site in the limited time I've got to absorb some of this stuff, and while it enhances my enjoyment of the game, it's work.
People watch because other people watch, because it's social, regional, tribal, a way to play out our passions without braining each other. Mostly. That people at a pretty high level are pretty ignorant is both not great and not surprising.
None of this is really about making the football landscape fairer or killing the goose that writes their golden paychecks. And why would we expect that?
November 9th, 2023 at 11:53 AM ^
Regrettably, I also saw this earlier today. Heather Dinich, towards the end of the segment, "confirmed" something to the effect that Conner Stalions was not at a TCU game last season, and Greenberg jumped all over that, which the implication that it's the only game that Michigan lost last season, and "qualifying" it by saying he's not making accusations, just stating the facts.
It was so ridiculously biased that it suggests nothing but a concerted effort on part of the network (or at least that show), to go after Michigan.
November 9th, 2023 at 12:18 PM ^
When 20 guys are drafted in the spring, will everyone attribute the uptick in wins to “stealing signs” or will they finally attribute winning to a talented roster? JJ running a 4.5 and throwing lasers while scrambling are dependent on which pre-snap info? Corum juking or carrying 2 guys after 5 yards is a pre-snap read? Mason shucking OL is related to Stallions in what way?
It’s not the Xs and Os, it’s the Jimmies and Joes.
November 9th, 2023 at 12:31 PM ^
A few things
1) they only use 2020 because we had 10 win seasons before and in contention except for osu having brown’s signals.
2) 2020 COVID- an aberration
3) give bill Poggi being brought in in 2021 for the new culture. He showed harbaugh how to harness his enthusiasm and competitiveness in a positive atmosphere for the team rather than a caustic hammering be better damn it attitude. This cannot be stated strong enough or often enough.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:33 AM ^
If ESPN sniffs that the B1G / Michigan relationship is crossing the Rubicon - the narrative will shift as they will want a shot at getting Michigan back into the fold in the future (as an independent or part of the ACC or SEC).
But first - they will want to push the Michigan army across the river.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:34 AM ^
This is the year folks, when we win it all. And it'll be sweeter because of it.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:35 AM ^
The argument will continue to be, it’s still against the rules because they used electronic devices in person against future opponents to steal signs!
November 9th, 2023 at 9:36 AM ^
Maybe some lazy journalists will say that and of course toxic social media but I wouldn't worry about that too much.
Vegas lines haven't moved or even moved in our favor. NFL scouts won't give two shits about this. My only slight concern is on the recruiting trail but I doubt it would have a significant impact if we keep winning.
To summarize - money talks, bullshit walks.