Is Sherrone Moore going to be David Shaw 2.0?
Full Disclosure- I'd love to have Coach Moore take over as HC. I've also been a David Shaw fan, in part, because he went to high school with my brother at Rochester Adams.
If Michigan goes with Coach Moore, I started last night about what Michigan could learn from Shaw's run at Stanford. It's a similar situation- popular OC takes over as Harbaugh goes to the pros. Shaw did have the advantage of having Andrew Luck at QB for his first season as HC while Michigan's coach next year will be starting over from scratch.
Shaw had 8 winning season, 3 Pac 10 Championships and was 4 x Pac 10 coach of the year before the wheels fell off the program. Watching his teams at their peak, they still had that "Harbaugh edge" to them. I'm not entirely sure what happened to their program but it sounds like the combination of high academic standards and Stanford not being quite as up to date on the changing landscape in recruiting did him in.
January 25th, 2024 at 10:57 AM ^
I just clicked to neg you
January 25th, 2024 at 10:57 AM ^
I will support Sherrone - or, whoever Michigan’s head coach is.
It’s a great opportunity for Moore and Michigan. There will be growing pains - and, I hope the culture he’s been part of developing can be sustained. It’s “on everyone” in the program and begins with the players.
Go Blue!
January 25th, 2024 at 10:58 AM ^
I just hope everyone isn't clamoring for him to be canned if we go 9-3 or something next year. THIS year was always going to be the crescendo for this cycle, we had a bunch of NFL caliber guys come back with some NIL enticement, we had the 1st round caliber QB that puts a very good team into national title winner territory. It's unreasonable to expect you can hit on everything and have that level of a team year after year after year without some lulls.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:07 AM ^
It kind of depends on how he goes 9-3.
We have an elite defense coming back. If he goes 9-3 Iowa-style by just putting a stagnant going-through-the-motions offense out there, then there will be some grumbling.
If he goes 9-3 because we played well but some things just didn't go our way because we have the hardest freaking schedule in the country, people will be patient.
January 25th, 2024 at 12:15 PM ^
I don't know what the offense is going to look like next year, but depending on how the QB situation shakes out, Michigan may not have much more of an alternative than to play Iowa-style on offense.
The OL should be pretty good but every starter is still being replaced, RBs should be good, TEs should be good, but QB is a major question mark and WR has extremely little production coming back. For a team that really didn't utilize receivers much anyway. Sounds a lot like Iowa.
Now don't get me wrong, I DO NOT think Sherrone Moore's vision is to have Michigan playing like Iowa next year. I'm just saying that unless Orji is a revelation by September, or if Jadyn Davis is the equivalent of true freshman Trevor Lawrence, Michigan's offense may not have the capacity to look much different than Iowa's next year.
January 25th, 2024 at 3:44 PM ^
I don't see how the offense could be Iowa bad, but I get the sentiment. If that's the floor for 2024, I'll take it though. Could definitely see a 9-3 Iowa style though.
January 25th, 2024 at 10:59 AM ^
Football is an ever evolving sport. Coaches have to reinvent themselves every few years as others adapt to their style and tendencies. My hunch is that Shaw rode the wave a few years and then got stuck in the mud and maybe didn’t find innovative new coaches to evolve. Plus at Stanford, once the wheels started to fall off it’s a tough place to recruit your way out. I’m thinking late Lloyd Carr days where UM played dinosaur football in a spread world and eroded slowly after 97. Moore has the benefit of better recruiting and now we hope he can fill his staff with smart up and coming coaches and not old retreads
January 25th, 2024 at 10:59 AM ^
No, he won’t. The biggest difference is that while Harbaugh took Stanford to some pretty high points during his tenure, Stanford was still towards the bottom of the P10(12) as far as desirable football schools for recruits. Michigan will always stay in the top third of b1g schools and the top 20 for CFB schools for places to go to play football. Given that, while Moore may never get Michigan to the very top again(though he may, depending on things), Sherrone Moore will be a very good coach for Michigan until he leaves or retires.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:01 AM ^
Yesterday evening I decided to play the "Mgoblog David Shaw Comparisons Drinking Game" and was already passed out long before this thread appeared.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:05 AM ^
Happy to be of service! Drink up!
January 25th, 2024 at 11:07 AM ^
Moore will have a much easier time recruiting talent to Michigan than David Shaw would have had recruiting to Stanford, im going to guess.
If there's a ? with Moore as HC, it won't be offense and it won't be recruiting, it'll be defense and how he manages being the top dog, running the entire program, imo.
Here's to hoping they do get Moore signed on as HC ASAP and give him all the support and $$ he needs to retain and replace assistants.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:26 AM ^
I'm supportive of Moore becoming the head coach. There are a few questions - or uncertainties - which would be similar for the head coach almost regardless of who they would be. So, what are my questions - and the "differences" between Harbaugh and Moore.
First - Harbaugh is unique - and, I felt ideal for Michigan. He grew up around Michigan football through his father - played for Bo - was indoctrinated with the culture - and was successful everywhere he went. And, he "lives, eats, and breathes football."
Second - experience and identifying how high a player's ceiling is. I am not involved in recruiting at Michigan - but, this staff was great at seeing a player's potential - Mike Sainristil is one example. I don't know how involved Harbaugh and Moore were in that "early talent identification" - but, Harbaugh had almost two decades of head coaching experience before he arrived at Michigan. The experience at the college level (San Diego and Stanford) helped. Now, Moore may have a "good eye for talent" - or Harbaugh's eye might be a bit better - I don't know, but - I'm certainly hopeful the staff can continue that.
Third - in game coaching. This again, touches on experience, and good decision making. The example that comes to mind is - Illinois in '22. Harbaugh decided to "take points" via field goals - with an injured Corum and a feisty Illinois team. Those field goals (thanks to Jake Moody) - closed the gap in the score - which resulted in a key Michigan win. Moore was great in adjusting the offensive game plan in State College (with a nicked up JJ) this year - to win a road game in a hostile environment. There will be similar situations in the future.
Last (for now) - the culture and emotion. People in the media were quick to "comment" on the emotions Moore expressed after the Penn State game - and, a lot of those comments, IMO, were negative. I don't view it that way. College football is different from the NFL - the rosters are young men - and emotion can be a factor. I appreciate Moore's passion and reaction. Which leads to culture - and, how unique the program's culture is today. Moore seems to be an integral part of it - as is Herbert. I hope that the culture can be sustained - with NIL and the portal - only time will tell.
Again - wishing Moore and everyone who will be part of Team 145 - nothing but the best.
Go Blue!
January 25th, 2024 at 12:04 PM ^
I've been asking these questions to myself and to other people since the final game. I have no clue how it's going to pan out but identifying players and their ceilings, to me, is the critical advantage we had that nobody else could compete with.
January 25th, 2024 at 1:02 PM ^
I'm not sure how involved Harbaugh was in this - particularly during unofficial visits. But, IIRC, Jim would look at prospect playing other sports - besides football. Not sure how that was done - but, the assessment of the ceilings was nothing short of fantastic.
My guess is - Harbaugh has honed his skills since the days when he was an unpaid assistant working for his dad - which was 30 years ago.
The landscape - with NIL and the transfer portal is creating a huge challenge - especially for those schools who will compete against those who are "buying the best team they can". We've seen what Michigan's approach is toward NIL - and hopefully, the model will be competitive and allow the culture to be sustained / thrive.
On the NIL front - I have no right to tell anyone how to spend their money. But, for these young men who are provided with NIL opportunities - I hope they PLAN effectively for their future - and, take care of their basics first.
College student athletes are extremely busy. So, getting from "point A to point B" in a car makes things easier. My preference is - the parking lot outside of Schembechler Hall / Glick never has a Lamborghini in it.
Go Team 145 - and Go Blue!
January 25th, 2024 at 11:07 AM ^
start banning these idiots... reserve your opinions for twitter/X
January 25th, 2024 at 11:14 AM ^
Shaw inherited the best college QB prospect since Elway, that might have helped.
We'll see what Moore can cook up at that position. Right now it doesn't look great.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:15 AM ^
The Good News: Wherever Harbaugh went and left, the program maintained "goodness" for some time. So Moore will likely be able to harness that and learn the job on the fly.
I think he will be good. Will he be great? time will tell.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:19 AM ^
Let me get out my tarot cards and I'll get back to you.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:19 AM ^
Will Sherrone punt on 4th and 1 from the opponents 40? Or always throw a fade routes on goal-to-go situations?
If the answers are no, then he's not David Shaw.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:30 AM ^
I suspect that Harbaugh was grooming Moore in order to keep Minter as his prize that he wanted to take from Michigan.
Change my mind.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:48 AM ^
I can't disagree - or "change your mind". The NFL coaching carousel is in motion. Where will Mike Macdonald wind up? And - Minter, as you point out - well, it would be a surprise to me if Jesse doesn't become the Chargers DC.
Baltimore might have a need for a DC - depending on whether Macdonald is offered a head coaching position. And, if Baltimore will need to replace Macdonald - do Jim and John play a game of "Paper, Scissors, Rock" to see who gets Minter - is there another member of the Ravens defensive staff that could replace Macdonald? My guess is - it might take a few weeks - but, by mid-February things should be settled.
SO, Michigan will have an opening for a DC on the defensive staff. People have commented on Clink / Elston as being the "new" DC, or possibly "Co-DCs". This might work - though, a big part of me would welcome seeing a "younger assistant / analyst" coming to Michigan's staff from the Ravens. This assistant / analyst might be a defensive position coach.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:31 AM ^
Well I certainly hope he's able to continue the success, but I am not liking the 'wheels fell off the program" part OP describes
I would have been happier had they just retained Harbaugh
January 25th, 2024 at 11:38 AM ^
I love this forum and come here for a some good people and good UM chats but damn it’s been absolutely exhausting the last couple weeks.
Nobody knows the future but Moore has earned his shot and this was the plan all along Why asked these dumb ass questions?
.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:41 AM ^
Shaw had a successful career post Harbaugh. Stanford just reverted back to the mean.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:51 AM ^
Stanford is a great academic and athletic institution. It's fair to say that football is a "bit more visible" at Michigan than it is in Palo Alto.
The landscape is / has changed a LOT. We all know about NIL and the portal - along with academic standards. And, I have no idea how those changes have impacted Stanford.
And, there's probably been an "ebb and flow" with other Pac-12 teams - a few teams come to mind - including Oregon, Washington, Utah, and USC.
January 25th, 2024 at 12:48 PM ^
The type of recruits that would choose Stanford probably are those least affected by NIL.
January 25th, 2024 at 1:37 PM ^
A good friend of mine's son was recruited by Harbaugh - and played at Stanford under Shaw.
He had a great experience.
January 25th, 2024 at 1:37 PM ^
Dupe.. deleted
January 25th, 2024 at 11:47 AM ^
Sherrone Moore should be able to continue the same success we have enjoyed during the Harbaugh years. Gary Moeller was an unsuccessful head coach at Illinois but when he became HC at Michigan he had good teams, laid the foundation for 97 national championship team and probably who have won another had not been fired. Lloyd Carr did not have any college head coaching experience when he replace Moeller. As long as Sherrone keeps the staff together and replace the coaches who leave with quality replacements we will be fine.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:50 AM ^
David Shaw won 3 Pac-12 Titles and 2 Rose Bowls his first 6 years... we could do a lot worse than that.
January 25th, 2024 at 12:49 PM ^
But . . . now we know we could do better.
If the gods of football made me this deal right now: "You can have Shaw's exact post-Harbaugh ten year record, or you can just take your chances" . . . I would take my chances.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:51 AM ^
Since Stanford resumed football in 1918, David Shaw is...
- first in wins
- third in winning percentage behind Clark Shaughnessy and Pop Warner (which means ahead of Harbaugh and Walsh)
- first in bowl wins
- tied for first in conference championships with Pop Warner and Claude Thornhill
- first in COTY awards, and more than all other Stanford coaches combined
If that's what we're getting with Sherrone Moore, bring it on. And if at the end of it all the "wheels have fallen off" and we're back to baseline like Stanford was, so be it. Our baseline isn't quite the same as theirs.
January 25th, 2024 at 12:33 PM ^
That's kind of my point. There's recency bias with Shaw but I'd be stoked if Moore could match what Shaw did in his first 7-8 years
January 25th, 2024 at 3:38 PM ^
I knew it was but I thought it was worth being explicit. The guy has the most wins and most titles in school history, at a school that's had three of the greatest coaches ever, and people are talking about him like he was some sort of failure there.
January 25th, 2024 at 11:53 AM ^
The key for Moore is to quickly build a good staff. He really needs a good dynamic OC. Is he there on the staff. Would Hart make a good OC? Or should he look for a big name who can improve the passing game. Moore himself will be goo with the running game.
January 25th, 2024 at 12:10 PM ^
Could it be "Co-OCs" - one pass game coordinator and one run game coordinator?
Then - who will be the play caller on Saturday? I'm not being contentious - but, a single play caller would probably work well. Though I like Moore, I think it's important that someone beside Moore call the plays - because Sherrone's plate will be pretty full as the head coach.
January 25th, 2024 at 12:00 PM ^
If I knew, I wouldn't tell ya
January 25th, 2024 at 12:01 PM ^
David Shaw has gotten like 3 interviews this offseason for NFL HC jobs. It was a Stanford problem moreso than a Shaw problem.
January 25th, 2024 at 12:12 PM ^
Shaw is brighter than Sherrone. Sherrone does a better job of relating to his players.
Sherrone will certainly recruit better than Shaw. Hopefully Sherrone makes better future hires for open positions than Shaw.
Not sure why this question is getting so many thumbs-down. It's a legit question. We dont know how well Sherrone will do over the next few years, and Shaw could give us some hints towards how well Sherrone does at UM.
#GoBlue
January 25th, 2024 at 12:33 PM ^
How do you know Shaw is brighter than Moore?
Stanford is a tough place to win, and to do what both Harbaugh and Shaw did there deserves a lot more credit than people want to give. Yes, Harbaugh built the foundation (like he has here) but Shaw carried it on for quite a while longer than you could reasonably expect at a place like Stanford.
The reality is there is no guarantee any first time coach will succeed, and there's plenty of coaches who had success that don't at their next stops. Or vice versa. Saban didn't succeed at MSU, he turned out OK at LSU and Bama. Coaching is an odd profession that way. Prior success, or lack of, is not a marker of what will happen next.
No one knows what kind of program head Moore will be but I do know the players and staff all seem to love him and I know we cannot afford (literally and figuratively) to rebuild this program via the portal like other schools can.
So keeping Moore makes the most sense right now. Maybe he's good, maybe he's not but right now if you want to keep most of what Harbaugh built up you have to promote Moore to HC.
January 25th, 2024 at 1:25 PM ^
Not sure how you know Shaw is "brighter". Harbaugh described Moore as:
Smart, smart. Wicked smart
And obviously Harbaugh has worked with both. Per Harbaugh:
I mean, nobody I have more respect for than Sherrone Moore, nobody that I worked with do I have more respect for
January 25th, 2024 at 12:12 PM ^
Shaw won the Pac 12 3 times in his tenure. He had a solid run.
January 25th, 2024 at 12:20 PM ^
Moore was suspended by the university. Why? What does this say about his future? https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/michigan-offensive-coor…
January 25th, 2024 at 12:22 PM ^
Stanford nosedived after they fire Shannon Turley. It was pretty immediate and indisputable.
So never lose Ben Herbert and we’re probably fine.
January 25th, 2024 at 12:28 PM ^
NO,he might be Gary Moeller(without the off the field stuff).I'm guessing that a contigency plan has been in place since the Natty.Hart to OC,Clink/Elston DC.
January 25th, 2024 at 12:29 PM ^
I like having a former lineman as a head coach because SMASH
January 25th, 2024 at 12:41 PM ^
I don't know that their talent level fell off even towards the end of Shaw's tenure. Stanford was able to recruit at its level pretty consistently. I think that it was Shaw's scheme, especially their defense fall behind the curve.
January 25th, 2024 at 12:45 PM ^
If Shaw 2.0 is the floor, I'd take it in a heartbeat. We all know Michigan could certainly do a lot worse than Shaw at his best.
January 25th, 2024 at 12:55 PM ^
What if it is the ceiling though?
January 25th, 2024 at 1:18 PM ^
More B1G titles and a couple more rose bowl wins?
I’ll take it