December 5th, 2019 at 4:01 PM ^
LSU could always match up player for player with any team in the country. Coaching was holding them back. Michigan isn't at that point.
December 5th, 2019 at 6:22 PM ^
LSU could always match up player for player with any team except at QB. For the most part over the last 10 years their QB play has probably been below average. Every now and then they'd have a decent QB. Burrow, along with their willingness to pass more often, has completely changed their offense.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:01 PM ^
This board has become the 247 board.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:07 PM ^
So when did the board become a clothing/decorative store?
December 5th, 2019 at 4:38 PM ^
Since 06/29/2009
December 5th, 2019 at 4:37 PM ^
That's why I canceled my membership.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:02 PM ^
LSU has the advantage of being the only major program in their state and being in one of the most fertile states/regions for recruiting. Also not giving a shit about ethics in the SEC also helps. They have always had elite talent, just shit coaching on the offensive side of the ball. They have great assistants on both sides of the ball now.
December 5th, 2019 at 5:13 PM ^
Correct. LSU is a far better comp for OSU. Those two schools have massive recruiting advantages as the only school in talent rich - football obsessed states which means all the talent stays home.
Their Les Miles days were like OSU's John Cooper days. Supremely talented, meh coaching.
Now they have excellent coaching on both sides of the ball.
The one relevant comparison is that you can get a lot better, immediately, with home run coordinator hires.
Michigan isn't as talented as LSU but they're not far behind. Michigan just ran into a historically good OSU team this year and made several unfortunate mistakes (unforced) in a game that required them to play nearly perfectly.
December 5th, 2019 at 6:25 PM ^
FYI: Per 247, in the current cycle...
State of Louisiana has eleven 4 stars.
State of Ohio has nine 4 stars.
State of Michigan has seven 4 stars.
The supposed 'talent rich state' theory is...not that big of an advantage, at least for OSU.
OSU has eight verbals from the state of OH, four of which are their four bottom rated recruits (these four are 3 stars). The recruits that have OSU recruiting at the Alabama/Clemson level are mostly not from Ohio. Only two of OSU's fifteen 4 stars are from Ohio.
Michigan has eight verbals from the state of Michigan.
MSU is not getting any state of Michigan recruits this year that Michigan really wanted. MSU's top state of Michigan recruit is no. 17 in the state and a three star.
One weird thing: Three of the top four state of Michigan recruits this year are from Oak Park. None of those three are going to Michigan. Going to Kentucky, Penn State, and Purdue...
December 5th, 2019 at 6:47 PM ^
It's not just how many 4 stars, it's are they high or low level 4 stars.
On 247 for 2020 OSU has two 5 stars and thirteen 4 stars. The catch is almost half their 4 stars are in the Top 100 in the country: 33, 48, 63, 79, 82, 93.
Michigan has zero 5 stars and twelve 4 stars. The catch though is only one of Michigan's 4 stars is in the Top 100 in the country: 90.
Almost half of UM's 4 stars are rated below 200. Only two of OSU's 4 stars are rated below 200.
December 5th, 2019 at 7:18 PM ^
You are listing OSU and UofM verbal commits. But I am talking about the number of 4/5 star high school players in each state.
People often say the OSU gets a big advantage because the state of Ohio has a lot more high school talent than the state of Michigan. But this factor is minimal, at best.
The 247 ranking for the state of Ohio lists eleven 4 and/or 5 stars (and that means one five star, and ten 4 stars). The state of Michigan has eight 4 stars.
The 247 composite ranking for the state of Ohio lists just six 4 stars and zero 5 stars in the current cycle. In the 247 composite the state of Michigan has seven 4 stars and zero 5 stars.
The difference in the top of the talent pool between the two states is minimal. It may be non-existent. At any rate, it is not enough to give OSU a significant edge over Michigan in recruiting.
Further, given how OSU recruits, with the vast majority of the top half of their class NOT from Ohio, the high school talent pool in Ohio is not really that much of a factor in the recruiting gap between OSU and Michigan. The recruiting gap is almost all due to other factors.
Interestingly, the no. 11 player (the last 4 star) in OH is former Michigan commit Kalil Branham. Branham is a verbal commit to Kentucky.
December 5th, 2019 at 8:56 PM ^
Gotcha. I misread your original post.
December 6th, 2019 at 11:07 AM ^
Of the 85 scholarship players in this year’s OSU roster, 30 are from Ohio. (35% of players). In the 2021 class, OSU may sign 8 of the top 10 recruits in OH, with only the 10th ranked player not being a 4 star or above and they are getting the top player in the state in the 2019, 2020 and 2021 classes, all being 5 stars.
December 7th, 2019 at 11:38 AM ^
No matter the players you get, you still have to develop and coach them up. Osu has the same players from their worst defense in years last year. They only lost 1 starter from last year's defense. The biggest change was that they got rid of the d coordinators and brought in new coordinators that Day can work with.
Look at northwestern in the mid to late 90s. That had back to back very good seasons, won the big ten and rose bowl. They do not and have not been able to land top recruiting classes.
We need better position coaches with great recruiting abilities. But it's getting harder every year we don't win our bowl games or rivals.
December 5th, 2019 at 7:21 PM ^
Someone needs to go talk to that Oak Park coach. With a bag of money in one hand and a baseball bat in the other.
That school produces some good talent and we get none of it.
December 5th, 2019 at 10:47 PM ^
Their coach is Greg Carter. College baseball All-american.
He played college ball in Kentucky, but at Kentucky State.
December 6th, 2019 at 2:20 AM ^
Looking beyond this year shows:
2017
OH: 17 (7) (21 total recruits)
MI: 10 (7)
2018
OH: 12 (4) (26 total recruits)
MI: 6 (3)
2019
OH: 13 (5) (14 total recruits)
MI: 9 (2)
2020
OH: 6 (2) (25 total recruits)
MI: 7 (3)
When MI has a lot of recruits Harbaugh has to do well and generally has. 17 his best class had the most MI 4/5 in the time period. However 19 wasn’t a good year for him in state and 2020 is only a little better. But most of the misses in state have been by choice or understandable.
Compared to OH MI’s highest number was equal to OH’s lowest number and MI only had 1 year with more than OH. osu also seems to take a lot of OH players when they want to. In the years where they didn’t take at least a third of their class from OH (18 & 20) they took the top 2 players in state (20) or 2-5 (18).
December 5th, 2019 at 11:11 PM ^
LSU was basically Tressel OSU. Now they have modern offensive coaching and a good QB and they look like Meyer OSU, plus Bama is in a down year (by their standards).
December 6th, 2019 at 9:08 AM ^
The "massive recruiting advantage" for OSU in Ohio may be true, now, but when Bo was coach, UofM always got roughly 50% of Ohio's best players. What's changed? IMO, the main reason is that UofM is not recruiting Ohio and OSU has made it a point to cultivate HS coaches and players.
December 6th, 2019 at 1:08 PM ^
Damn, Bo hasn't coached in over 30 years. That's what's changed, welcome to the new century. College football today doesn't remotely resemble what it was like in Bo's day and age. Time to get with the times.
December 6th, 2019 at 2:47 PM ^
Not talking about football. We're talking about recruiting. UofM switched to recruiting nationally and to focus on the Northeast, at the expense of Ohio. I think that was a mistake. Tressel may have made it more difficult, but it's impossible to get kids from Ohio if you choose to ignore them. .
December 6th, 2019 at 1:29 PM ^
Jim Tressel is the reason we don't get players from Ohio at the same level we use to.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:03 PM ^
LSU and Ohio State are the two teams in the country who benefit from having a ton of high school talent in their states and not really sharing it with another high profile school. For that reason they should always be good.
Utah is the team that makes more sense to look at as it relates to Michigan. They have been good for years and with that consistency they are a step away from the playoff this season. It may not happen for them season to season but they are an upper tier team more often than not. Blowing things up and starting new is not always the way to go...
December 5th, 2019 at 4:07 PM ^
OSU is not in Utah's division.
Our comp is Auburn, except their OSU is the in-state rival.
And that's the SEC.
We have no comp.
The Michigan Difference
December 5th, 2019 at 4:12 PM ^
Auburn has won a championship in the BCS/CFP era.
Auburn is 11-9 against Alabama over the last 20 years (We are 3-17 against OSU).
I fail to see how we are anywhere close to Auburn.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:14 PM ^
Just division dynamics. My point was looking at Utah's path to the CFP doesn't help us at all.
Looking at the SEC West doesn't help either. He said LSU = OSU, which means we are Bama and MSU is Auburn.
December 5th, 2019 at 6:17 PM ^
That's because Alabama in the early 2000s before Saban was awful, losing 8 or 9 games a year. Auburn won 6 in a row pre-Saban. Those were basically Auburn's version of the John Cooper years.
Since Saban arrived, Auburn is 4-8 in the series.
Yes, that's more competitive than Michigan who is 1-11 against OSU in that time frame, but its not too far off either.
December 5th, 2019 at 8:01 PM ^
We're a 2pt play, a short spot, and a Metellus dropped interception/1 O'Korn overthrow away from being 4-8 vs OSU in that time frame. Not even counting that weird 2012 game.
Conversely Auburn is Mr. 250k man Cam Newton, Kick Six, and Bama Backup QB throwing 2 pick 6s away from being 1-11 too
December 5th, 2019 at 6:35 PM ^
Redo those records in the alternate universe where Michigan buys Cam Newton (and others too) just like Auburn did...
December 5th, 2019 at 9:08 PM ^
I wasn’t really comparing us to anyone and I am well aware Utah does not play OSU every year. I was saying if you stick with a winning formula, even if that formula comes with some bumps, you may have the occasional season where the schedule and talent sets up nicely for the results we all hope for. Utah’s consistency, in both results and coaching, is a big part of this years excellent season.
On a somewhat related note it is beyond annoying that our best teams (in the Harbaugh era anyway) continue to pop up the years we play OSU at home. I think all agree that 2016 game played in Ann Arbor is a win for the good guys.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:12 PM ^
The biggest difference I see with the Utah - Michigan comparison is the divisions. Sure the Pac 12 South has USC (I would compare them to perhaps, PSU or even us) but the rest of that division is pretty weak. Only 3 bowl-eligible teams in that division. We have 5. We also have 4 teams with at least 8 wins, they have 2. Utah clearly has a much easier opportunity to get through their schedule. But that's an interesting thought experiment around what teams we compare to and what they do/have done to get over the hump. I almost look at us more of a Georgia, outside of the geographic advantage.
December 5th, 2019 at 5:39 PM ^
Michigan’s comp is Georgia when Richt was there. They’re slimier now due to Kirby and that’s what Michigan should do if they want to beat OSU. Sad but true.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:52 PM ^
If there's a program that's analogous to us, it's probably (and sadly) Texas...
December 5th, 2019 at 5:02 PM ^
Moreso during the Mack Brown - Lloyd Carr eras.
It was an annual competition of who would do less with more talent every year...Texas or UM.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:34 PM ^
Hard to understand if that truly is a knock or a compliment to Carr. I say the latter. Carr got the talent. That's all one can hope for...
December 5th, 2019 at 11:36 PM ^
Hard to understand if that truly is a knock or a compliment to Carr. I say the latter. Carr got the talent. That's all one can hope for...
December 6th, 2019 at 1:32 PM ^
And didn't do squat with it. Lloyd should have won 3 National's with that talent.
December 5th, 2019 at 10:09 PM ^
If UM played in the Pac 12 they'd have multiple conference titles and playoff appearences. They have a better record than any Pac 12 team from 2015-today.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:04 PM ^
They even used a transfer QB, which is definitely the key to success. Harbaugh is ahead of the curve.
December 6th, 2019 at 7:55 AM ^
Orgeron hired Joe Brady, someone who has had known great success. Jim Harbaugh has hired unknown factor coaches to run the passing game the last 3 years.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:05 PM ^
From what I've read on here since the game, the recipe for success is paying your recruits and letting your players take online classes. So Orgeron's probably doing that.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:09 PM ^
This came across as sarcasm and yet it's probably true.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:32 PM ^
Not sure if serious but this is 100% true
"Obviously, I don't go to class because I take online classes so I don't get to see any of those people," Burrow said. "I just wanted to see them for the first time and just thank them for coming to the games, making this the best atmosphere in the country."
December 5th, 2019 at 4:05 PM ^
They took an OSU QB.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:05 PM ^
Straight cash, homie.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:06 PM ^
Very highly paid and capable assistants, lock down state of LA recruits, and now national recruits
December 5th, 2019 at 4:07 PM ^
https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/football/assistant
In 2018 their DC makes $2.5M and they have a Heisman Trophy Candidate QB.
So top 5 defense + Elite QB Play = Success
December 5th, 2019 at 4:15 PM ^
We've been top 5 on defense under JH, and our new OC was brought in specifically to develop the pass game & big plays.
DO we have the QB's to take the next step, and can Brown just slow down OSU ever?
December 5th, 2019 at 4:22 PM ^
Browns biggest issue is a lack of pass rush from the DTs. They had good ones in 16 and 17 and that’s partially why the games were much closer. But our DT problem became an issue last year and that was the issue this year. When you give an OSU QB ages to throw, they’re going to find one of their elite receivers. Michigan needs to get bigger on their DL and win that battle in the trenches. Doesn’t matter if it’s getting someone who’s already 300+ lbs or DE that needs to put on weight. Ultimately your DTs need to make an impact. That’s how OSU, Bama, Clemson do it every year.