What would it take to change your mind (either way) about Harbaugh
It appears that we are all pretty locked-in on our positions about whether it was the right or wrong call to give Harbaugh a contract extension. I do not want to rehash that decision here yet again. Nor do I want this thread to turn into the usual pissing match about Harbaugh’s record since coming to Michigan. We already know about his 10-win seasons (on one side) and about his record versus OSU, ranked teams, etc. (on the other side). If you want to engage in this type of debate, please do it in one of the other threads discussing that topic.
What I am genuinely curious about is this: what it would take for you to change your opinion? For those that supported keeping Harbaugh, what would it take for you to believe that it’s time to move on? For those that wanted to see him let go, what would it take for you to support keeping him?
I’ll start.
I’m on record that I believe it was the right choice to keep Harbaugh. I’m also on record that I think 8-4 is the floor for this team. Anything less than that would be a disappointment. So what do it need to see to support keeping Harbaugh or, alternatively, finding a new head coach?
- I think a 9-3/8-4 season probably warrants keeping Harbaugh for another year.
- A losing record would be a deal-breaker. I’d hate to see Harbaugh go, but I’d support the decision to get rid of him if we have a losing record.
- A 7-5 or 6-6 record would depend on other factors, most importantly offensive competency. I think the defense is going to struggle, especially in the beginning of the season. If the offense is keeping us in games, scheming to their advantages, utilizing their talent, showing some tempo, and above all scoring points, then I’d look forward to the future when the defense is fully installed and we’ve recruited the right players for the system. If, on the other hand, we see a disorganized offense with no growth, failure to use tempo when needed, inability to keep us in the game, etc., then I’d support pulling the trigger and let Harbaugh go.
- Improved QB play. This probably goes with the point above about the offense, but I don’t see any reason to have mediocre QB play this year. Cade has a full two years in the offense and should be able to make any of the plays the coaches ask him to make. Bowman should feel at home in the offense that we run. Either guy should give us above average play without counting on JJ this year. I’m not asking for superstar QB performances. But (late-season) 2015 Rudock, 2016 Speight, or 2018 Shea levels of QB play should be the baseline comparison. Again, anything less and I’d support letting Harbaugh go.
Again, please do not turn this thread into an argument about the past. I’m genuinely curious about what you need to see in the future. And please no mudslinging. We all support the same team.
Go Blue!
April 24th, 2021 at 12:41 PM ^
If they play hard and look good doing it, I won't care about their won-loss record. Fin.
April 24th, 2021 at 12:44 PM ^
What you said kind leader of Russia. I will add if it looked like Michigan football was fun (approaching Howardian basketball) due to the new, youthful hires, and lost some of its Seth-killing-taking-itself-too-seriousness, we could put up with some ups and downs.
April 24th, 2021 at 12:58 PM ^
Agreed. Part of what infuriated me over the past few years - and specifically last year - was how uninterested the team looked.
The other part is game planning. Sometimes it looks like the coaches have no idea how they want to beat a team, and just go out there running random plays. Sometimes it seems like the coaches aren't actually interested in scoring on any given drive. And the majority of the time it looks like the team hasn't been coached for tempo, that clock management doesn't seem to matter. When we get behind, the coaches keep plodding along like there's 20 more quarters to play.
Play hard, and put players in positions to succeed. Do that, and I can live with pretty much any win-loss record
Lol. A team with Michigan's talent that has fun and game plans well is in the top 10 every year. Just like we were when we were doing those things in 2016 and 2018.
Unfortunately, that isn't an area in which coaches have traditionally demonstrated an ability to improve. Look at Les Miles: he never figured out the whole in-game coaching thing (or the whole don't-cheat-on-your-wife thing, though that's a different story).
April 25th, 2021 at 12:32 AM ^
I had sideline seats at the Penn State white out game a few years back and I was shocked how little energy our team had. Other than Don Brown the entire sideline was a dead fish. Brown kept a semi circle of his starting defense around the bench and was fiery and engaged with them. Every other sideline player was as into the game as the few Michigan fans in the crowd during the drubbing. Basically the exact opposite Michigan's basketball bench. Our guys didn't seem to enjoy playing football.
My opinion of him would improve if he would order his steak medium rare and drink beer with it instead of milk.
Seriously, Put? This isn't Little League, teams don't win medals for participation. So if Michigan wins only 3 games this year, including losses to Ohio State, MSU and Rutgers, but plays really hard and looks good in losing, you would cheer this result? That's a mighty low bar for a P5 program. Maybe acceptable for a Vanderbilt but not Michigan.
How you interpreted what Putin wrote:
"... you would cheer this result?"
What Putin wrote:
"I won't care about their won-loss record."
Not the same ...
There's an MGoBlog user that spent several months trying to gaslight MGoBlog on COVID-19 issues. S/he often constructed straw creatures as part of that effort. You just did the same.
- - -
On-topic, I'm not expecting any significant improvement from Harbaugh. His odd personality isn't going to change and I lack faith that he'll abandon his Schembechleresque "establish the run" approach to the game.
As long as they fill the stadium (and fund all the other sports) I won't care.
You are correct Blue Heron, he did not say he would "cheer" this result. Is it preferable if the original phrase "I won't care about their won-loss record" is used? In which case, I find it hard to believe that any Michigan fan "would not care" if the team went 3-9, losing to OSU, MSU and Rutgers, but tried hard and looked good doing so. And I would call on all that put themselves in that category to post on November 27th stating they don't care about the won-loss record but by golly the boys sure played hard and looked good in the effort in 2021 and Harbaugh met expectations for our coach, should that eventuality - or any losing record - come to pass.
As for comparing the use of "cheer" in the original post to gaslighting MGoBlog on Covid-19 issues, the hyperbole you employed in effect creates its own straw man. I'll let the irony speak for itself.
Conceded: Part of my post lacked a sense of proportion.
But, I was honest about not caring. I'd be good with a losing record if the coaches and players did the best they could. (I don't think that has happened much recently.)
Football funds non-revenue sports. I should have also mentioned its (unknown) effect on general fundraising.
Win THE game!
'15 and '16 come to mind.
I'd be okay with 7-5 if the five losses were all close games in the fourth quarter. I'm tired of two score losses where we are clearly the inferior team. This is my problem with people that say UM has always been an 8-4 to 10-2 program. I agree with that but in the Bo and Carr years when we were 9-3 those three losses were usually soul crushers where we lost by one score or less in the fourth quarter. Give me those losses and at least I'll stay interested and hopeful for the future.
Hmmm...good thought. Unfortunately that does usually correspond to wins/losses. If Harbaugh manages less than 4 losses, beats MSU, and either beats OSU or loses by less than 10, he can have another year.
Actually, if he beats MSU and OSU, I’ll allow 4 losses.
April 24th, 2021 at 12:42 PM ^
I do not like this topic, but I agree with your assessment 100%. You deserve the upvote. Now I hope this stays civil...
April 24th, 2021 at 12:42 PM ^
Q: "What would it take to change your mind (either way) about Harbaugh?"
A: Beat Ohio State and win the Big Ten championship.
In each of the past TEN season, OSU football has only ever lost either 0 or 1 conference games per season.
Their recruiting has improved dramatically during those 10 years, to the point where it is at even a higher point in the last few years than it was at for the most of this unprecedented run of dominance.
Regardless of who is the coach at Michigan, the only way anybody in the Big Ten even has a small chance at beating OSU is if their team doesn't show up prepared to play. Against Michigan, that is just not going to be the case. It's not happening with Harbaugh, it's not happening with Soup Campbell, and it it still wouldn't happen if we hire Nick Saban.
This reality is uncomfortable, but the sooner we come to terms with it and stop directing massive volumes of toxicity and vitriol towards the program, the better off we will be.
There are lots of things Harbaugh can do a lot better in terms of running the program. There can be plenty of valid reasons to think we might do better with another coach, but if we hold a new coach to that standard we will be repeating this whole cycle all over again in only a few years. Your standard is utterly ridiculous given the current landscape of the Big Ten and CFB in general, and you have lost touch with reality and are living in a fantasy of the past if you don't understand that.
No reason that that one loss OSU has to a lesser team can't be to us.
Yes there is.
That loss only happens when OSU doesn't show up to play and their opponent plays their best possible game. Both of those things need to happen. The first one isn't going to happen against Michigan.
Wrong. Both PSU and MSU have beaten them when that was the most important game on their schedule.
OSU isn't rivals with PSU or MSU...
How is that relevant? A night game at Penn State for the division lead in 2016 is definitely a game they were up for. Same with the two times they lost to msu, the stakes were big ten titles in each game. There's no doubt we have 1/10th as much talent as they do, but the deal breaker is we have 1/100th the coaching they do
Beating Michigan means more to OSU than a Big Ten Championship. See Cooper, John.
April 25th, 2021 at 12:59 PM ^
How much coaching does it take for OSU's QBs to hit WRs that are wide open on every single play because opposing DBs can't keep up with them?
OSUs QBs have put up ludicrous, video game numbers in the past decade. How has that translated to NFL success where you actually have to make reads and hit tight windows?
How much playcalling expertise does it take to identify that Michigan's 3rd corner can't keep up with OSU's 3rd receiver and then go to that again and again until Michigan pulls guys out of the box and then you start running it.
We definitely can be that one team, but they're less likely to overlook us than anyone on the schedule. Even when Michigan stinks, OSU sets aside time at every one of their practices to prepare for Michigan. They're not doing that for Purdue or Iowa. OSU gets caught sometimes when they overlook an opponent who is fired up to beat them. They will never lack the motivation to play Michigan hard. We get their undivided attention no matter what we put on the field.
No one wants to hear it but it’s probably the truth.
And this is why I back an expanded playoff, so that we aren’t forced to beat a loaded OSU at the end of the season to ever have a shot.
Every other level of college football has a 16-team tournament. Division I-A should too. The hell with the “sanctity of the regular season.” Give me December Madness.
No matter what osu will never look at psu,msu etc they way it looks at Michigan!
9 & 3: you're correct; the game against you is our season defining success. Also, I've noticed the Iowa and Purdue type games would usually come the week after a huge, emotional and draining win against another contender, like MSU or PSU. Hell, even Indiana has given us game the last 8 years. Urban was pretty bad getting us sky high for a PSU white out, but not too many college teams can get that revved up week after week after week.
Bama has been stung like that a couple times the last few years as well.
Btw, your women's field hockey beat us for BIG championship today....congrats....I love ALL BIG championships....keep em in my pocket like a good luck charm
Yeah, we're a Field Hockey School!
/did I do that right?
April 24th, 2021 at 10:34 PM ^
You did it right only if you laughed at your own joke as you hit the save button.
April 25th, 2021 at 12:09 AM ^
This mentality is fucking asinine. Bo came in his first season and beat an OSU team on a 22 game win streak that most of the country considered unbeatable.
Moeller and Carr beat 9-0-1, 11-0, 10-0, 9-1, and 10-1 OSU teams. The fact we can't beat them once in six years is total horseshit. 3 of the games have been blowouts, 4 of them would have been if played last year.
Auburn just fired a coach that has 2 wins against Alabama in the same timespan that Harbaugh has been here.
It is amazing that people have backpedaled so far on their expectations just to defend Harbaugh no matter what.
The Bo win was over 50 years ago in a different world. I was 18 and watching Michigan for the first time and became a life long fan.
Moeller and Carr beat Cooper who is nowhere near being a great coach. And again a different world from what college football is now.
What's different? Football is football and rivalry games are still rivalry games...except not really because we look so lifeless on the sidelines all the time it makes sense why we don't beat them. Go watch players body language from the 69 upset or the games in the 90s and tell me Harbaugh's teams look the same.
You didnt answer how Auburn has been able to beat Alabama who is on a more historic run of success, but it's unreasonable to expect a win over OSU.
Or better yet how MSU plays some of their best football whenever they come to Ann Arbor, but every year it's "Oh they're not a threat".
April 24th, 2021 at 10:59 PM ^
As great as this would be, it just isn’t a realistic benchmark at this time for Michigan. Michigan clearly has an Ohio State problem that eventually needs to be solved, but still hasn’t had a season under Harbaugh without losing to someone else. I’d be thrilled to see Michigan go 8-1 in conference with a loss to Ohio State; that’d be Harbaugh’s best season yet! I think that’s a more realistic goal at this point, and would be enough to convince me that he can get Michigan back on track.
Looking at this schedule and what Michigan has returning, I’d be stunned with anything better than 9-3 as I see at Wisconsin, at Penn State, and Ohio State all as guaranteed losses. The rest are winnable but they probably lose at least one more.
Unfortunately I think Harbaugh’s best years are behind him, and keeping him is just delaying the inevitable. I hope Warde has been curating a list of replacements and is ready to go right away at the end of the season if necessary. His approach to extending Harbaugh did not inspire confidence in his ability to make a decision.
April 24th, 2021 at 12:45 PM ^
I was on team replace harbaugh. Not because I’m super pissed or think it’s impossible for him to improve. In fact I wasn’t looking forward to another coaching transition but for the sake of getting it over with and seeing what we had with a new coach sooner, it made sense to me to rip the bandaid.
to get me back on board with Harbaugh for another season after this one, I’d say it’s less about record than about feel. There’s so many new coaches, new players, and unknowns I have no idea what to expect in terms of record.
but I do expect the players to look well coached and get dramatically better over the season. I do expect the game plans to make sense consistently and the play calls to be smart. I do expect the team to fight like hell. I do expect the recruiting to take a step forward. I do expect we can play with any team in the league based on talent alone and make games look like dogfights. I do expect a hoke-level effort vs Ohio state.
if those things happens I’m probably back on the give it one more year train.
April 24th, 2021 at 12:53 PM ^
I like this answer, and the one's from Putingrad and UgliEric below. I think a team that shows fire and looks well coached should be given the benefit of the doubt.
The only reason I consider a losing season to be a deal breaker is because it would mean that we would probably lose not only to OSU, PSU, Wisconsin, Washington (which sucks, but ok...), but also at least 3 losses to teams that we should beat (Indiana, Maryland, MSU, Rutgers, Northern Illinois, Nebraska, or Western). 3 losses against those 7 teams would just seem bad...
I think what you are saying is that it is hard to reconcile the idea of a team that looks well coached and a losing record. If we go 0-4 against OSU, PSU, Wisconsin and Washington and lose even 2 of our remaining 8 games, that suggests to me either multiple coaching blunders, a number of key injuries and/or a team playing without fire.
If we are well coached and playing with fire, we should absolutely expect to win: Western, Northern Illinois, Rutgers at home and Nebraska away. At worst, we should expect to lose 1 of Northwestern at home, Indiana at home and Maryland at Maryland. That puts us at worse at 6-1. I also expect this team to beat at least 1 of PSU, Washington and MSU away. That would put us at a still very disappointing 7-5. For me to be on the Harbaugh train at that point, most of those 5 losses better be close and all of those games better be competitive into the second half. I will also want to see significant improvement throughout the season and have a real reason to believe the team is going to continue to grow and be substantially better in 2022. I think that even at 7-5, it is extremely unlikely that all those other criteria would be met and expect that if all the things that need to happen for me to regain confidence we would likely have to go at least 8-4 and probably 9-3.
I absolutely think this team is capable of that type of record but I would feel much better if they get an impact transfer at nose tackle. (Come on down John Ridgeway).
Well said.
The only way I see a well coached team, with this talent, hitting 7-5 or worse is if the defense puts us in a hole early. This could force the offense to be one-dimensional and level the playing field against teams like MSU, NW, Indiana. But even in that type of situation, I would at least expect the offense to keep us in the game and make it competitive even if we lose. In that case, I'd just shrug my shoulders and give it time until the defense puts things together.
April 24th, 2021 at 12:46 PM ^
He would have to run off a streak like Saban
April 24th, 2021 at 12:49 PM ^
As for team performance, I would like to see a well coached team with a coherent plan on both offense and defense that is well executed. We have solid talent, and if they are well coached and motivated the results will follow. If we never exceed (or even meet) OSU's talent, I'm ok with that. I just want our team to be as well, or better, coached on average.
I like Jim because he goes beyond just coaching duties and engages the students in opportunities to grow in other ways as well. This is something that I value deeply (and I get it that others may not). I expect him to continue in those efforts (as nature allows), and to demonstrate good character as a representative of the university.
If he does all that, I'm happy to have him as our coach.
I don't think anyone would disagree with the "extra" stuff you mentioned as being a big positive. However, this isn't an Ivy League program. He has to be able to win, period. Programs like Michigan exist to win football games. That should be the primary goal. If not, go join the Ivy League and exist as an academic institution that has fun with a little football every now and then.
April 24th, 2021 at 12:51 PM ^
I'll support Harbaugh for one more year but his team needs to 1) beat Penn State AND Wisconsin this season as they are expected to lose both games. Then 2) see a change of Jim on the sidelines per 2015 and 2016 seasons attitude and a much better team chemistry because it dropped way off last season.
Beating Ohio Sate is a bar too high to get over and no one likes to lose, even a close game but this team will need to show that they deserve to be on the same field as Ohio State.
This all leads to a 2nd place finish in the B1G East and that will win me over for Harbaugh to keep his job.
As for losing his job, then losing to Penn Sate and Wisc along with 1 or 2 other loses and getting blown out by Ohio State and the team goes 6 and 6 (or worse), then bye-bye Jimmy.
April 24th, 2021 at 12:51 PM ^
The exact opposite of what I saw last season (excluding Minnesota)
April 24th, 2021 at 12:54 PM ^
One successful 2 minute drill. That's all I'm asking for. I dont want to see any more of this hurry up and wait stuff he does or lets settle for a field goal.
April 24th, 2021 at 12:54 PM ^
I realize this is a tall task, but just one season of Harbaugh beating OSU, winning the Big Ten, and making the playoff would do absolute wonders for how the fan base feels about him.
April 24th, 2021 at 12:58 PM ^
He would have to renounce his love for Judge Judy, & acknowledge that she is indeed a bitch to just about everyone that appears before her.
April 24th, 2021 at 12:59 PM ^
For me, he can do two things to keep his job this season:
-Beat OSU
OR
-Get to Indy.
I think I am even being pretty damn generous saying he can go 0-11 and beat OSU the last week of the season.
To the "you need to be realistic" crowd: Why? Why was it OK for us to have unabashed unrealism when he was hired but now we need to tone it down? Dude was brought here to win championships (plural). And we are now talking about being OK with them going 8-4 in his SEVENTH year?
Nothing will ever be perfect in college football. We've had plenty of seasons with elite senior talent and favorable home games and fell on our face. We've had seasons where the expectations were low and the team did a lot better than they should. It happens all the time. If this dude is what we hope he is, he can beat an underdog once in his life.
If he fails to either beat OSU or get to Indy, what are we doing here? We can bring in any above average coach to do what JH is doing.
He's out of runway. No more moral victories. Either do something of consequence now, or we wish ya well.
So if Harbaugh goes 11-1 and loses in double overtime to Ohio State, makes it to the semi-fnals and loses another close game to Alabama, you would fire him?
I find this pointless to ask because this situation would NEVER happen. The powers that be hate Michigan football and so a one-loss team who fails to beat Ohio State and get to the B1G Championship game, let alone win the thing, is NOT getting voted into a 4-team playoff. It’s just not going to happen, so the exercise is pointless.