WaPo: Evidence that Michigan coaches/staff were involved
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/10/25/michigan-computers-sig…
Not great. At least it doesn't tie back to Harbaugh at all.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:52 PM ^
4.11.h states: "Any attempt to record, either through audio or video means, any signals given by an opposing player, coach or other team personnel is prohibited".
This rule is found under "Article 11: Prohibited Field Equipment", a section setting forth the "Jurisdiction covering the presence and location of communication equipment (cameras, sound devices, etc) within the playing enclosure..."
Seeing as the attempts to record did not take place within the playing enclosure, many have argued it doesn't apply to UM.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:01 PM ^
Is the playing enclosure not the stadium in which the game is being played?
October 25th, 2023 at 6:43 PM ^
Can you provide a page number? I cannot find the rule at 4-11-h. Rule 4 deals with the actual ball in play. And the index to the rules you linked doesn’t shed any further light. In fact, I can’t seem to find any 4-11-h at the link you posted. Also, my understanding was you could not use electronic means to monitor signals in the same game. That’s not what Michigan is accused of doing.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:50 PM ^
The reference is to Rule 1, Section 4, Article 11(h):
Any attempt to record, either through audio or video means, any signals given by an opposing player, coach or other team personnel is prohibited.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:44 PM ^
Who cannot record? That is a key point. How do they know a coach was using it.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:48 PM ^
You've said this on multiple threads. It's incorrect each time. That section does not apply outside of games in which you are a participant.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:55 PM ^
I thought that only pertained to electronic surveillance of the other sideline "in-game." Not at a different game than the one you're currently playing.
October 25th, 2023 at 7:19 PM ^
you are misinterperting that rule. It is about on field equipment during a game. It doesn't apply here.
Saying that I do not think that paying someone to do our scouting lets us off the hook on that one.
October 25th, 2023 at 7:20 PM ^
This is an IN-GAME field rule, and does not pertain to scouting.
October 25th, 2023 at 7:55 PM ^
It's not. That section pertains to the teams playing the game. Start with Article I:
The game shall be played between two teams of not more than 11 players each, on a rectangular field and with an inflated ball having the shape of a prolate spheroid
For the section you cited to apply, it must have been done by one of those two teams.
October 26th, 2023 at 12:12 AM ^
I think you're missing something important here:
ARTICLE 11 Jurisdiction regarding the presence and location of communication
equipment (cameras, sound devices, etc) within the playing enclosure resides
with game management personnel
Item h under this heading would indicate it involves the field of play. So you can't record a team's signals from your own sideline. Has nothing to do with what someone may be doing in the stands.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:33 PM ^
There is no such rule.
The only rule that might have been broken is that teams are not allowed to "scout" other teams in person. The question, of course, is what "scout" means and whether observing signals is scouting.
October 26th, 2023 at 9:28 AM ^
This rule is ridiculous. In literally every other level of sport this happens and is known to be part of the game. That's why it's called scouting! I'm not saying you're wrong at all, I'm just saying this is one of the most ridiculous of the many ridiculous NCAA rules
October 25th, 2023 at 6:26 PM ^
Any chance this is just Stallions’s computer?
if not this is really stupid. If this involves more than Stalions then the SEC shorts skit is more of a reenactment lol.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:35 PM ^
. . . Michigan's planned signal-stealing travel for the rest of the season.
That's priming the narrative.
Let's say this proves to be true. I dont understand the logic. How would any coach be involved in this with so little benefit?
October 25th, 2023 at 7:40 PM ^
It was probably page 212 of Stalions’s manifesto. He was tracking his schedule, makes sense.
The article asserts other coaches managed the computers with files but does not say what files, who, when, where, how, or why.
October 25th, 2023 at 8:18 PM ^
No details on who created the detailed schedule? If it's Stalions, then this seems like no news.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:13 PM ^
Got it. This is not great, as I don’t think it will matter how the evidence was obtained.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:16 PM ^
The sign-stealing investigation threatening to disrupt Michigan’s football season began after an outside investigative firm approached the NCAA with documents and videos the firm said it had obtained from computer drives maintained and accessed by multiple Michigan coaches, according to two people familiar with the matter, evidence that suggests the scandal’s impact could broaden beyond the suspension of one low-level assistant.
That's the gist of it, plus what I posted above. The article goes out of its away to point out that there is no evidence that Harbaugh himself was aware of this.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:19 PM ^
Well, the "Stalions acted alone" angle seems to be gone, which basically puts us squarely in totally fucked territory lol
October 25th, 2023 at 6:22 PM ^
There are quite a lot of weasel words in there to make it sound worse than it is.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:24 PM ^
We don't know that.
October 25th, 2023 at 7:36 PM ^
I don't agree with the notion that the "Stalions acted alone angle is gone," in fact, the article to me seems to kind of point to some obvious truths that you don't think about being particularly relevant until you hear them.
For instance, it's not really at all surprising that Stalions would be maintaining all of this information on the computer he used at work. Just because the information was on a drive others could access, doesn't mean they did or knew what was in it. Most workplaces have shared drives.
Also the article talks about how detailed the information was in the drive. Given what we found out about Stalions earlier today, most notably that he maintained a 600 page "Michigan manifesto," it isn't exactly surprising that he had a detailed record of his scheme on his work computer.
That's not to say that it can't turn out that other were involved, just that the information presented here doesn't really push the needle that way in my opinion.
The wording and the way it is presented though, is obviously in such a way that it is designed to make you think that.
October 25th, 2023 at 7:47 PM ^
I 100% agree with this. But here’s what I can’t get over.
Sure, Will Hobson’s anonymous source would feed him information in a certain way. But why does The Washington Post—THE WASHINGTON POST fergodsakes—have to present it that way?
Why not ONE sentence that says it’s unclear who or how many people actually accessed the files? Or if they know who or how many, then why not say that?
Very disappointing from the Post.
October 25th, 2023 at 8:06 PM ^
Media is designed to be as sensational as possible now. I know, I work in it. There's not really many good journalists anymore, and tbf it isn't really their fault, it's just that the incentive structure has changed drastically since the days of print journalism.
WaPo, like every other outlet, does this now. Most people decide which ones they hate based on topics I am not going to get into here, but they're all the same. Just depends on what side you like better.
October 25th, 2023 at 8:16 PM ^
As someone who has lived in the DC area since 1990 and subscribed to the WaPo from the very beginning, I've long given up on the notion that Washington Post and Journalism belong in the same sentence.
They don't even check for middle school-level typos anymore, much less accuracy and completeness on the important stuff.
October 25th, 2023 at 8:34 PM ^
Clicks. They want money; this gets them money.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:45 PM ^
My general impression of the WaPo has always been that its function, aside from the usual functions of a local paper, is to provide a conduit for semi-official federal leaks. If intelligence or the DOJ or the State Department wants to get something out to the public they've got a friendly Post reporter who will do it for them.
This story's outside their usual bailiwick and it's not of particular local interest. So I guess I'm wondering if the PI is making use of a contact he already had.
October 26th, 2023 at 7:51 AM ^
Very disappointing but, as others have noted, not surprising. I read the WaPo and have a subscription. But virtually *any* news outlet these days is going to sensationalize things as much as possible for clicks. If you’ve ever received media coverage for anything remotely controversial you know that it usually runs the gamut from “merely benign” to “largely false and completely inflammatory.”
October 25th, 2023 at 6:55 PM ^
"Maintained and accessed" can mean a lot of things. I do "maintenance" and have "access" to some of my customers' network drives, but that doesn't mean that I can or do see everything that's on them.
October 25th, 2023 at 8:18 PM ^
This is a huge point that people are glossing over. The WaPo article specifically says:
cellphone videos depicting the coaching staffs from these games were uploaded to a computer drive maintained and accessed by Stalions as well as several other Michigan assistants and coaches.
My emphasis. As anyone who has dealt with computer forensics knows, access to a drive doesn't mean someone accessed the actual files. In fact, you're often hiring a computer forensics firm specifically for this reason - to determine if that access to particular information occurred rather than just general access to the drive.
The fact that someone had access to a (likely shared) drive is pretty meaningless in terms of actually meaning anything. And nobody who actually knows and deals with this stuff on a regular basis would think that is in any way conclusive. It's absolutely garbage phrasing either by someone who is clueless or intentionally wording it weirdly.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:18 PM ^
They aren't clueless, and the wording isn't "weird." If they had evidence of access they'd say so. They don't, so it's worded in a way calculated to deceive careless readers into thinking there was access.
This is not investigative journalism, it's a mudslinging operation. Everyone involved--the writer, the investigating firm, the people who hired the investigating firm, the NCAA leak--is hostile.
Never forget that. And apply Yeoman's Razor: Never ascribe to incompetence what can be adequately explained by enlightened self-interest.
October 26th, 2023 at 7:54 AM ^
Ditto. At my job I save most of my work product to a drive that can be accessed by any of the 25-30 colleagues in my division. They each save their own work product to their personal section of the same drive, and we can all theoretically access each other’s product. So if I saved something on my work computer, it would be saved to “a drive accessed and maintained” by 25-30 other people, even though none of them would have any idea it was there.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:57 PM ^
Theres a lot in there. Whos hiring an investigative team to snoop on Michigan and how did they access Michigan PCs. Two major questions
October 25th, 2023 at 7:12 PM ^
The article goes out of its away to point out that there is no evidence that Harbaugh himself was aware of this.
So evidence so far. Given all of this, I find the thought that Harbaugh wasn't aware of the elaborate sign stealing operation with it's own detailed budget and schedule with clear links to multiple coaches on staff to be rather absurd.
October 25th, 2023 at 7:45 PM ^
Where do you get the information that this was "elaborate sign stealing operation?" A single simple spreadsheet could contain all the info that the NCAA leaker claims was found.
And from where do you get the info that there were "clear links to multiple coaches on staff?" That's ALSO not in the WaPo article.
The "evidence" presented in the WaPo article adds nothing to the discussion except the info that some football coach seems to have paid someone to hack computers used by a Michigan coach.
October 25th, 2023 at 7:59 PM ^
Where do you get the information that this was "elaborate sign stealing operation?" A single simple spreadsheet could contain all the info that the NCAA leaker claims was found.
From the article, where among other things, it said that "Michigan’s sign-stealing operation expected to spend more than $15,000 this season sending scouts to more than 40 games played by 10 opponents." The size, scope, and budget of such an endeavor more than qualifies as an elaborate sign stealing operation in my book.
And from where do you get the info that there were "clear links to multiple coaches on staff?" That's ALSO not in the WaPo article.
I think you need to reread the article... here's the relevant part: "Days later, the outside firm told the NCAA, cellphone videos depicting the coaching staffs from these games were uploaded to a computer drive maintained and accessed by Stalions as well as several other Michigan assistants and coaches."
The "evidence" presented in the WaPo article adds nothing to the discussion except the info that some football coach seems to have paid someone to hack computers used by a Michigan coach.
On the contrary, if proven true, this seems this seems to be the smoking gun definitively proving that the Michigan coaching staff had knowledge of and culpability in Stalions sign stealing operation.
October 25th, 2023 at 8:12 PM ^
uploaded to a computer drive maintained and accessed by Stalions as well as several other Michigan assistants and coaches."
"maintained and accessed" is doing some really heavy lifting there. If the evidence coaches were involved is so good, I would've expected something more concrete there. Like "videos were viewed and edited" rather than a "drive was maintained and accessed"
October 25th, 2023 at 8:24 PM ^
A public drive is "maintained and accessed" by everyone who can get to it. That does not mean that everyone looks at every file on the drive. I had files on a public drive at work that anyone could maintain and access, but nobody else ever did. They were too busy with their own stuff.
These kind of public drives become unwieldly junkyards with 1,000s of haphazard files.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:05 PM ^
Also, you can restrict access/password protect individual folders on a shared drive. So just because coaches can access a drive doesn't necessarily mean they could access specific data on it. Not saying Stalions did that, given he didn't even hide his Venmo activity, but saying multiple coaches had access doesn't really mean anything.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:44 PM ^
Judging from the language and substance of the story, there isn't any real new detail here that implicates anyone beyond Stalions. First of all, why was an outside firm "approaching" the NCAA with investigative material it gleaned independently from the NCAA.
The story suggests the information was volunteered and came from a
Who hired the third party investigator and directed the agency to do what it did? Secondly, if Stalions is as dedicated to his work as SI and other stories about him suggest, it appears to me he is the the primary organizer and manager of the advance scouting operation.
I doubt Michigan's position coaches and coordinators have the time or inclination to go through files and files of iPhone camera recordings to decipher and decode signals from this electronic surveillance. I'm thinking this is what Stalions does as part of his job and he devoted himself to supplying reports for the coaches to review, hence the access capability to other computers.
The story doesn't detail linkage, it implies it. The point is, this is another tool in game planning preparation. Michigan hired Stalions ro handle this part of the game planning effort for teams on its schedule.
Not trying to deflect or deny responsibility for any illegal surveillance activity. Stalions is a man who got the job done, one that other people on staff didn't have time to do. To the extent that it helped Michigan win, who knows, but it apparently was useful to spend time and money on doing.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:39 PM ^
right. there's no 'fruit of the poisonous tree' as far as the NCAA is concerned. that's not to say they can't go after the people responsible for obtaining the info, but they can still use the info to hammer Michigan.
This sucks. What a way to take the wind out of what was becoming a really fun season.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:15 PM ^
Lol great Wapo
October 25th, 2023 at 6:15 PM ^
"The photos showed these people seated at games of Michigan opponents this season, aiming their cellphones at the sidelines. Days later, the outside firm told the NCAA, cellphone videos depicting the coaching staffs from these games were uploaded to a computer drive maintained and accessed by Stalions as well as several other Michigan assistants and coaches."
Guys, I know I was a dick yesterday, and I apologize. I just don't see any good coming from this. It feels like this is the tip of the iceberg, and only more stuff is going to come out. I just want everyone to prepare for the worst. This is not good.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:18 PM ^
It's signs you can continue with your doom and gloom but I won't. At this point it's a witch hunt about other teams signals. Not their playbook. Of course he reported back to certain coaches that's common sense.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:21 PM ^
You're a fragile soul.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:21 PM ^
I think that this is the iceberg.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:21 PM ^
You may have been a dick but sometimes dicks are right. Even IF this is the entirety of the evidence, I think it will be enough to sic the hounds. I for one think the best defense will be an aggressive offense by the athletic dept that we most likely won’t see. This is also precisely why I was against the voluntary suspension at the beginning of the season. These bastards won’t be satisfied til the football program is pulp.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:48 PM ^
I think the best defense is to state "a staffer saved this on a hard drive" and hopefully display evidence he was told not to scout in person but to review tape. Then to acknowledge this violates the spirt of the rules but portray him as an overzealous wolf who recruited interns and friends, and point out these are considered minor, level 2 infractions that a majority of coaches and opponents have said have very little effect on the game's outcome. Fire the staffer, and ask for a statement that agrees this is a minor violation not worthy of the media narrative.
Then involve the police in these computer crimes.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:25 PM ^
Go back to r/cfb you massive knob goblin.