WayOfTheRoad

October 23rd, 2023 at 6:11 PM ^

I tried telling people this when the news broke and not a single person understood it or believed it would matter (it seemed). It does. In fact, if out for Jim The NCAA almost couldn't have a better case to levy against him/Michigan because of the specific clause that says that even if he didn't know, he knows. It's by default. It might as well be RICO for The NCAA. They only have to prove offense to have the HC, unlike a lot of other much more serious offenses.

So a staffer definitely paid for up to and maybe more than 30 tickets to opposing team's games? They only need to prove that the staff member ordered and/or received data pertaining to signals from these people he bought tickets for (assuming they are for others and he doesn't have a penchant for spending a lot of money for tickets he will never use). It'll all come down to whether he was smart enough to not have any hypothetical video on his devices AND/OR use any University emails to send or mention it to others. 

It would be awful for UM if it was all funded on a University card or fund but that also doesn't matter to The NCAA by rule. The article seems to suggest it was on his personal card but that doesn't help at all because Stalions is on staff. He gets paid by the University...so Harbaugh knew. I don't think he actually did but by rule he did.

This all boils down to how good at OpSec a Marine is and do not assume all Marines are smart with that shit. I know a few Marines that I both think very highly of and also call morons to their face because they are absolute fucking morons. In love them but they're not the brightest of fellas. So it'll come down to how good Stalions is/was at keeping all this BS off the grid, not just UM's grid.

Michigan better hope he was good because if he wasn't Michigan is going to get hammered. Brian's take of "nobody gets in trouble anymore" (that I totally disagree with) will be tested and I'm firmly in the "they'll go in with no lube" camp. Games will be vacated at the very least, IMO.

Joined: 06/26/2017

MGoPoints: 7609

Harbone IV

October 23rd, 2023 at 4:55 PM ^

They weren't illegal acts though. The media is misreporting what the NCAA bylaws and NCAA Football Rule Book say. That's what makes all of this so awkward. Also, it explains why Stalions was so cavalier about talking about what he was doing and didn't cover his tracks re credit cards, etc. Also, makes more sense to me about what Jim's statement said, which left open the possibility that he was aware of non-staff engaging in off-campus scouting.

Joined: 08/24/2017

MGoPoints: 483

Kingpin74

October 23rd, 2023 at 4:00 PM ^

I still think there's a good argument that since an actual paid employee, staffer, or contractor wasn't the one doing the scouting and taping, the NCAA rule doesn't apply. Especially given the fact that the rule was enacted in 1994 when you would most likely need a professional camera crew to do this (they didn't want to disadvantage schools with lower budgets). And nobody is alleging that any of this happened electronically during a Michigan game as the rules also prohibit, just in advance. So you could argue that it's a weird alternate version of a TV broadcast if it comes from an unaffiliated person.

However, it could get murky as to the question of whether an actual staffer buying the volunteer "scout" a ticket on his own dime counts as compensation. That was stupid to buy those tickets and involve any money whatsoever, and even more stupid to do so under his own name.

Joined: 05/09/2014

MGoPoints: 737

Shorty the Bea…

October 23rd, 2023 at 4:14 PM ^

That's not really that important if he submitted and was reimbursed for expenses.

Either way, I don't want this dude near a UofM campus or athletic event for the rest of time.

Leaders and Best includes principles.

That's internal policy. Externally, all fans must now purchase maize and blue Sherlock Holmes outfits and bring spyglasses to all games and talk into their phones as they stare at opposing sidelines. #TheVastNetwork

Joined: 02/14/2013

MGoPoints: 2711

CarrIsMyHomeboy

October 23rd, 2023 at 4:04 PM ^

Lol, I enjoyed that.

Ultimately, it seems like this will come down to a mix of:

  1. whether a non-paid individual (rather than Stallions) attended those games,
  2. whether that constitutes Stallions identifying a true NCAA loophole, and
  3. whether the NCAA is willing to buck its trend of being a zero-punishment organization for big programs (i.e., "here's looking at you, FBI-led corruption/fraud scandal**")

**(Arizona, Auburn, Louisville, Alabama, Miami, etc.)

I'm not overly worried (i.e., not discouraged) but neither can I say that the pace and specificity here is encouraging. Feeling the same as last week.

Joined: 06/30/2008

MGoPoints: 7324

joeyb

October 23rd, 2023 at 4:31 PM ^

I'm copying and pasting a previous comment of mine:

The rule doesn't say anything about paying people to do it. It just says "Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited, except as provided in Bylaws 11.6.1.1 and 11.6.1.2." Those exceptions both start with "An institutional staff member", which isn't defined in this section. It is however defined under 10.6 Unethical Conduct: "Unethical conduct by a prospective student-athlete or student-athlete or a current or former institutional staff member, which includes any individual who performs work for the institution or the athletics department even if the individual does not receive compensation for such work". So, the people that he sent to games to scout for him become staff under the definition of the rule.

By buying and sending them the tickets to do a job for the team, he likely made them staff. I guarantee that this is going to result in vacated wins over the last 3 seasons. The only question at this point was whether anyone else in the building knew this was happening. If they find a single shred of evidence that someone else knew about this, then it's going to get ugly.

Joined: 10/12/2008

MGoPoints: 16869

bluesparkhitsy…

October 23rd, 2023 at 4:57 PM ^

I’m inclined to agree.  Unless the individuals at issue somehow had no idea they were helping Michigan — which appears unlikely — they likely fall within the rule.  And even if one were to adopt a non-textualist reading, this behavior appears to be exactly what the rule was intended to prevent.  In addition, the cellphone videos and/or related analysis likely made it back to Stalions, who presumably used it in his work.

Even as someone who hates this rule — after all, football games are open to the public and everything visible to the public should be fair game for scouting — this is the rule at present, and it appears to me that we broke it.  

The question, then, is what now?  I believe Harbaugh when he said he had no knowledge of any violation.  It seems very possible to me that this guy was a rogue actor who wanted to make himself look like a master codebreaker.  And, again, these were codes held out to the public to be broken.  But the team is going to find it difficult to prove that it did not significantly benefit from this, and that creates a real problem.

Joined: 10/16/2010

MGoPoints: 2442

Blue In NC

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:06 PM ^

So let me get this straight.  I can send some video of a football game to an OSU staff member and that violates the rule?

I think we all know and understand the rule is ancient and silly.  It's allegedly designed to save money.  But off course spending $100K on an Arch Manning official visit to gain a real competitive advantage is perfectly fine.  

Joined: 06/30/2008

MGoPoints: 8598

Blarvey

October 24th, 2023 at 9:26 AM ^

I agree but don't think anyone is in a position to pick and choose what rules they like and will abide by and the ones they find anachronistic and not worthy of following. You know there are many SEC schools who thought it outdated to prohibit delivering bags of money to recruits houses. It is ridiculous that Michigan gets investigated for stuff like this and Stretchgate and clear that the NCAA is living in the past. Until a new governing body is established, we're stuck with inflexible rules written for a completely different landscape. 

Joined: 11/21/2011

MGoPoints: 3473

CarrIsMyHomeboy

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:01 PM ^

That is important information. But it isn't everything. I imagine that it would matter whether the tickets were purchased by the athletic department (M credit card or a reimbursement system) as opposed to being paid by Stallions without any M-specific credit card or reimbursement paper trail.

So, I think my main point stands as possible: The loophole angle *can* remain open if the M athletic department did not pay for the tickets (directly or via reimbursement).

Secondarily: It will also be important to see whether video from (not of) attendants is ever recovered. This one, however, brings the proceedings much closer to a "what can be proven"/"what can be dodged" realm.

Altogether and remaining until *any* variety of productive investigation is over, is the final point from my original post: That in a world where "literally FBI-level comprehensive evidence" of major program fraud/corruption/NCAA-violation goes unpunished, it's fully possible that the NCAA is in a "post-punishment era" for major P5 programs. Of which, Michigan is one.

After all (crediting oHOWiHATEohioSTATE):

Joined: 06/30/2008

MGoPoints: 7324

4th phase

October 23rd, 2023 at 3:55 PM ^

My guess is that 2 original teams complained. Then his name leaked. All the other teams, went back and checked ticket records for his name. Then one of those teams, not the original 2, was like wait a minute we have security footage of those seats. 

So idk I'm not that surprised. What started as 2 teams complaining is now 13 teams cooperating to share evidence. 

Joined: 12/12/2017

MGoPoints: 14142

FauxMo

October 23rd, 2023 at 3:49 PM ^

This will be like the Zapruder Film of sign stealing. I can see the NCAA hearing on this case now: 

"The sixth and fatal iPhone video—frame 313—shows a member of the Vast Network zoom in on the opponent's OC. This is the key video. The OC calls a jet sweep back and to the left, totally consistent with the defensive alignment. Again... back and to the left… back and to the left… back and to the left… back and to the left." 

Joined: 06/17/2010

MGoPoints: 137619

Kilgore Trout

October 23rd, 2023 at 3:24 PM ^

Positive: Feels like this was most likely a one man operation with help from his buddies.

Negative: He probably was really stealing signs from these schools and there are going to be penalties for that.

Joined: 02/20/2009

MGoPoints: 13178

Derek

October 23rd, 2023 at 3:33 PM ^

Honestly, the details remind me of Matt Bevilaqua ("you know, like Drink Water") from The Sopranos: looking for a way to curry favor with the bosses, decided to freelance a bit, and went about it in a pretty stupid way.

IIRC, he's also ex-military, so possibly getting a pension on top of the UM salary, which would make these ticket purchases easier on the pocket.

Joined: 06/30/2008

MGoPoints: 24383