No way. Top 5 for this sort of thing. They're arguably the #1 SCOTUS counsel and a top firm for white collar and internal investigations. Perfect for scrubbing us internally quickly before we wage warfare that could open us up to scrutiny.
No way. Top 5 for this sort of thing. They're arguably the #1 SCOTUS counsel and a top firm for white collar and internal investigations. Perfect for scrubbing us internally quickly before we wage warfare that could open us up to scrutiny.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention! Happy to help a brother in need. I suggest we each try to outdo Buckeye Chuck by say $15-22 (but I recognize $200 isn't peanuts).
This is what I've been saying! Thanks for taking the time to write it up. The only thing I'd add is that the second exception to 11.6.1 is relevant. 11.6.1.2 says you can scout conference and NCAA Championships in person (would include CFP semifinal games). Hence us sending GAs instead of randos. Indeed, there's another bylaw specifically prohibiting unauthorized filming of NCAA Championship Games, so that would be the only way to do it.
I agree with both takes here: these coaches are not dumb. They are playing games, and games within games. Unfortunately, to your point, it didn't work in 2022, so he has to move on to another tactic, and I think we have broken Ryan Day. He came in thinking he could beat Michigan by continuing to do what Urban had been doing, but Ryan Day is not Urban Meyer, and reality bites. Urban Meyer is one of the greatest football coaches of all time. Ryan Day is a great passing game coordinator who fell into being the head coach at OSU before he was ready. I also think Jim's 3rd base comment really cut to the bone. Imagine the pressure Day is under, and he doesn't seem to know what to do to turn things around.
Was a 22 year old college girl who nothing about football a "scout"? Or was she a human willing to use her camera to film the opposing sideline for 3 hours in exchange for beer money?
Totally. I think it appears to be about "scouting," which is much more than just filming OR sign-stealing. And was intended to prevent the Michigans of the world from hiring 10 additional staffers to scout teams in person while the bottom of the barrel had only one guy sitting in the AD reviewing film.
Given that this leaked prior to the MSU game, we'll have 7 games in which Stalions's work is available and 5 in which it is not to compare. Obviously there is a big difference in strength of opponent, but if we beat the shit out of the remaining 4 teams on the schedule (MSU, check), it will go a long way towards proving Stalions's work didn't make a noticeable difference. I.e., the proof is in the pudding. We need to go on and run the table, and if we do, any whining from rival fanbases or coaches is just that. Ryan Day will just have to come up with a new excuse for why his extremely tough team was unable to beat us. Perhaps because he was forced to play the game inside our stadium and the fans made noise when he was on offense? Who knows what creative excuses he will come up with next! We will still have beaten our in-state rival into a mush on their homefield, beaten the 2nd and 3rd best teams in the B1G, and (fingers crossed) beaten whoever we're matched up against in the Playoff, all without any advance scouting.
I actually think our getting "caught" (though we didn't clearly break any rules) was inevitable if/when we ever got this good. I.e., someone would squeal, because whiners. Particularly tough guys who dye their beards. Wouldn't matter if he tried to hide the paper trail. Day didn't figure this out because of Stalions's Venmo account. He figured it out by looking at the sidelines.
I actually view this all very positively: we figured out a loophole, which is what you're supposed to do--take advantage of the rules without breaking them--we got really really good, and we have such a great rivalry that OSU is losing their minds. We've broken them. And all this intrigue is hilarious and supremely entertaining. It reminds me of the stories I've heard about Woody and Bo hiring PIs to find each others' spies.
Yeah, they stole our signs, but could easily have done it legally in this case. I heard from a former coach that Don Brown called in the defense himself without any decoys, and never changed his signs during the years he was at Michigan.
So anyone studying us carefully (which would clearly include the team that dedicates at least one coach solely to us) could decipher our calls after a few years with great accuracy. As I recall, it felt like OSU always knew exactly what play to run against us. Turns out, they did.
Interestingly, Jim didn't seem to realize Don was being a dumbass with his signs, because he didn't install decoys or urge Don to change his signs. This suggests that Jim really is a delegator, which would suggest he doesn't get into the weeds on stuff like Stalions's sources and methods.
Guys, he didn't "cover his tracks" because he wasn't breaking a rule. If he was breaking the rules, it would be important to avoid a paper trail. But if he tried to cover his tracks, that in itself looks suspicious.
Yes, and 11.6.1.2 says "An institutional staff member may attend a contest in the institution's conference championship or an NCAA championship contest in which a future opponent participates" (and the bylaws make clear that "an NCAA championship contest" doesn't mean "the final," it means all the games that make up a tournament or playoff).
Exactly. In fact, there's another rule that prevents Stalions from paying someone from taking a video of the NCAA Championship Contest(s), so the only way to scout this game would be to go to it in person.
Interestingly, Jim said he was not aware of any illegal sign-stealing, but he didn't say he was unaware of any off-campus scouting operations. He said he didn't *direct* any off-campus scouting operations. So he may have been *aware* of legal off-campus scouting and legal sign-stealing. Though I object to the use of the word "scouting" here since Stalions was paying randos (not "scouts") to take videos. He was paying for videotape, which is a whole 'nother topic in the NCAA Bylaws and not clearly prohibited.
If the team let him stand next to the defensive coordinator during games, he was doing something that must have been at least potentially useful. He wasn't just a fan. His job was to steal signals, and he did some advance work, like any good Marine. I imagine he did in-game recon as well. And btw he didn't break any rules.
Or aware that he wasn't breaking any rules, which is my theory. This guy wasn't a dumbass. He was a Naval Academy grad and USMC captain who wanted out of the military and into CFB and read the rules books to find a loophole, which he did successfully. It's actually awesome.
They weren't illegal acts though. The media is misreporting what the NCAA bylaws and NCAA Football Rule Book say. That's what makes all of this so awkward. Also, it explains why Stalions was so cavalier about talking about what he was doing and didn't cover his tracks re credit cards, etc. Also, makes more sense to me about what Jim's statement said, which left open the possibility that he was aware of non-staff engaging in off-campus scouting.
Agreed. There are, e.g., celebs on the sideline and I believe the team is likely responsible for their behavior (like staying off the field). But that's about the teams participating in the contest on that day. The person in the stands was affiliated with us, not the teams playing in the contest.
Agreed. There are, e.g., celebs on the sideline and I believe the team is likely responsible for their behavior (like staying off the field). But that's about the teams participating in the contest on that day. The person in the stands was affiliated with us, not the teams playing in the contest.
Buying some college girl a ticket so she can film the sideline doesn't transform her into a "scout." It's getting a service from her. The scouts described in the NCAA rules are professionals and staffers.
It doesn't. There is a rule against taping your opponents during a game. So if we paid a rando to film the opposing sideline DURING our game with their phone, we'd be violating Rule 1, Article 11(h) of the NCAA Football Rules Book, but paying someone to film ANOTHER game is not against the rules, because Conor was not there.
The rules in Rule 1 start as follows: "The Game ARTICLE 1. a. The game shall be played between two teams of not more than 11 players each, on a rectangular field and with an inflated ball having the shape of a prolate spheroid." LOL. These are "the teams."
It goes to explain who these rules apply to: "Persons Subject to the Rules ARTICLE 6. a. All persons subject to the rules are governed by the decisions of the officials. Those persons subject to the rules are: Everyone in the team area, players, substitutes, replaced players, coaches, athletics trainers, cheerleaders, band members, mascots, public-address announcers, audio/video/lighting system operators, and other persons affiliated with the teams or institutions." I.e., the teams playing that day.
This. The Redditor has a crackpot theory that makes no sense in reality. Even as poorly as OSU coached that game, "oh I have an idea, let's fake them out by making it 11 yards for a first down instead of 6" is not plausible.
Really interesting how the stickers reflect such different philosophies with two different focuses: individual accomplishments vs. team accomplishments and tenure ("Those Who Stay Will Be Champions").
Brings to mind a comment one of the Michigan coaches made to me after The Game last year: Michigan was a great football team, and Ohio State was a collection of incredibly talented individuals but not a very cohesive team.
I'm very curious to see if that is a one-time state of affairs or a difference between the programs that will persist.
I completely agree. I have a hard time seeing OSU imposing its will on a fully-healthy Michigan, but that's the big question.
Unclear what's going on with our most reliable receiver (Schoonmaker), best DE (Morris), one starting CB (Gemon Green), best return man (AJ Henning) and RBs 1a (Corum) and 1b (Edwards, who is also a great receiving threat) (plus a couple OLs--Trevor Keegan and Trente Jones). With all of those guys out, we're toast unless JJ and the WRs miraculously play lights-out (not holding my breath). But it seems some of them were just resting this weekend.
I'm genuinely curious to hear whether an OSU fan thinks the Michigan team that demolished Penn State would get out-physicaled by OSU. That seemed like an impossibility to me a few weeks ago.
This is Harbaugh's entire philosophy. His strategy is risk-averse and ruthlessly effective, as long as we play mistake-free. It seems old-fashioned and frustrating when we make mistakes (as college kids are wont to do), but when we play reasonably clean, it just grinds opponents to dust. Thankfully, both teams usually bring their A-game to The Game.
Recent Comments
Love the football dresses the players are wearing too. Might need to get one of those for my daughter.
@Seth and "[email protected]" in row 72 of the spreadsheet:
"[email protected]" is not the correct email. I got a response from someone who said he is not selling tickets.
No way. Top 5 for this sort of thing. They're arguably the #1 SCOTUS counsel and a top firm for white collar and internal investigations. Perfect for scrubbing us internally quickly before we wage warfare that could open us up to scrutiny.
No way. Top 5 for this sort of thing. They're arguably the #1 SCOTUS counsel and a top firm for white collar and internal investigations. Perfect for scrubbing us internally quickly before we wage warfare that could open us up to scrutiny.
Criminally underappreciated comment.
According to TheWolverine.com, this is already a story. Just paywalled.
How would the firm find the scout?
And also, Stalions didn't clearly breach the bylaws.
Yes. And it doesn't appear that he broke any rules.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention! Happy to help a brother in need. I suggest we each try to outdo Buckeye Chuck by say $15-22 (but I recognize $200 isn't peanuts).
This is what I've been saying! Thanks for taking the time to write it up. The only thing I'd add is that the second exception to 11.6.1 is relevant. 11.6.1.2 says you can scout conference and NCAA Championships in person (would include CFP semifinal games). Hence us sending GAs instead of randos. Indeed, there's another bylaw specifically prohibiting unauthorized filming of NCAA Championship Games, so that would be the only way to do it.
Rulebook applies to our games. You can't read it together with 11.6.1.
What's his beef with Harbaugh?
What does he have against Jim?
I agree with both takes here: these coaches are not dumb. They are playing games, and games within games. Unfortunately, to your point, it didn't work in 2022, so he has to move on to another tactic, and I think we have broken Ryan Day. He came in thinking he could beat Michigan by continuing to do what Urban had been doing, but Ryan Day is not Urban Meyer, and reality bites. Urban Meyer is one of the greatest football coaches of all time. Ryan Day is a great passing game coordinator who fell into being the head coach at OSU before he was ready. I also think Jim's 3rd base comment really cut to the bone. Imagine the pressure Day is under, and he doesn't seem to know what to do to turn things around.
Was a 22 year old college girl who nothing about football a "scout"? Or was she a human willing to use her camera to film the opposing sideline for 3 hours in exchange for beer money?
Totally. I think it appears to be about "scouting," which is much more than just filming OR sign-stealing. And was intended to prevent the Michigans of the world from hiring 10 additional staffers to scout teams in person while the bottom of the barrel had only one guy sitting in the AD reviewing film.
Given that this leaked prior to the MSU game, we'll have 7 games in which Stalions's work is available and 5 in which it is not to compare. Obviously there is a big difference in strength of opponent, but if we beat the shit out of the remaining 4 teams on the schedule (MSU, check), it will go a long way towards proving Stalions's work didn't make a noticeable difference. I.e., the proof is in the pudding. We need to go on and run the table, and if we do, any whining from rival fanbases or coaches is just that. Ryan Day will just have to come up with a new excuse for why his extremely tough team was unable to beat us. Perhaps because he was forced to play the game inside our stadium and the fans made noise when he was on offense? Who knows what creative excuses he will come up with next! We will still have beaten our in-state rival into a mush on their homefield, beaten the 2nd and 3rd best teams in the B1G, and (fingers crossed) beaten whoever we're matched up against in the Playoff, all without any advance scouting.
I don't think it's fair to call Ryan Day or OSU soft. Tough guys throw bubble screens on 4th and goal from the 2 all the time!
I actually think our getting "caught" (though we didn't clearly break any rules) was inevitable if/when we ever got this good. I.e., someone would squeal, because whiners. Particularly tough guys who dye their beards. Wouldn't matter if he tried to hide the paper trail. Day didn't figure this out because of Stalions's Venmo account. He figured it out by looking at the sidelines.
I actually view this all very positively: we figured out a loophole, which is what you're supposed to do--take advantage of the rules without breaking them--we got really really good, and we have such a great rivalry that OSU is losing their minds. We've broken them. And all this intrigue is hilarious and supremely entertaining. It reminds me of the stories I've heard about Woody and Bo hiring PIs to find each others' spies.
Yeah, they stole our signs, but could easily have done it legally in this case. I heard from a former coach that Don Brown called in the defense himself without any decoys, and never changed his signs during the years he was at Michigan.
So anyone studying us carefully (which would clearly include the team that dedicates at least one coach solely to us) could decipher our calls after a few years with great accuracy. As I recall, it felt like OSU always knew exactly what play to run against us. Turns out, they did.
Interestingly, Jim didn't seem to realize Don was being a dumbass with his signs, because he didn't install decoys or urge Don to change his signs. This suggests that Jim really is a delegator, which would suggest he doesn't get into the weeds on stuff like Stalions's sources and methods.
Guys, he didn't "cover his tracks" because he wasn't breaking a rule. If he was breaking the rules, it would be important to avoid a paper trail. But if he tried to cover his tracks, that in itself looks suspicious.
Yes, and 11.6.1.2 says "An institutional staff member may attend a contest in the institution's conference championship or an NCAA championship contest in which a future opponent participates" (and the bylaws make clear that "an NCAA championship contest" doesn't mean "the final," it means all the games that make up a tournament or playoff).
OSU are the new election deniers.
Brent Zdebski or Sam McGrath? Both?
Exactly. In fact, there's another rule that prevents Stalions from paying someone from taking a video of the NCAA Championship Contest(s), so the only way to scout this game would be to go to it in person.
He's been put on leave. He probably was told not to have any contact with anyone associated with the university.
He is (was) "the sign-stealing guy."
Interestingly, Jim said he was not aware of any illegal sign-stealing, but he didn't say he was unaware of any off-campus scouting operations. He said he didn't *direct* any off-campus scouting operations. So he may have been *aware* of legal off-campus scouting and legal sign-stealing. Though I object to the use of the word "scouting" here since Stalions was paying randos (not "scouts") to take videos. He was paying for videotape, which is a whole 'nother topic in the NCAA Bylaws and not clearly prohibited.
Except the articles allege Conor broke rules that he didn't break.
If the team let him stand next to the defensive coordinator during games, he was doing something that must have been at least potentially useful. He wasn't just a fan. His job was to steal signals, and he did some advance work, like any good Marine. I imagine he did in-game recon as well. And btw he didn't break any rules.
Or aware that he wasn't breaking any rules, which is my theory. This guy wasn't a dumbass. He was a Naval Academy grad and USMC captain who wanted out of the military and into CFB and read the rules books to find a loophole, which he did successfully. It's actually awesome.
They weren't illegal acts though. The media is misreporting what the NCAA bylaws and NCAA Football Rule Book say. That's what makes all of this so awkward. Also, it explains why Stalions was so cavalier about talking about what he was doing and didn't cover his tracks re credit cards, etc. Also, makes more sense to me about what Jim's statement said, which left open the possibility that he was aware of non-staff engaging in off-campus scouting.
Agreed. There are, e.g., celebs on the sideline and I believe the team is likely responsible for their behavior (like staying off the field). But that's about the teams participating in the contest on that day. The person in the stands was affiliated with us, not the teams playing in the contest.
Agreed. There are, e.g., celebs on the sideline and I believe the team is likely responsible for their behavior (like staying off the field). But that's about the teams participating in the contest on that day. The person in the stands was affiliated with us, not the teams playing in the contest.
Buying some college girl a ticket so she can film the sideline doesn't transform her into a "scout." It's getting a service from her. The scouts described in the NCAA rules are professionals and staffers.
Yes, that's in the NCAA bylaws, but doesn't matter if no one broke a rule.
Doesn't matter. Wasn't a rules violation. You can reimburse for stuff as long as you don't break the rules.
It doesn't. There is a rule against taping your opponents during a game. So if we paid a rando to film the opposing sideline DURING our game with their phone, we'd be violating Rule 1, Article 11(h) of the NCAA Football Rules Book, but paying someone to film ANOTHER game is not against the rules, because Conor was not there.
The rules in Rule 1 start as follows: "The Game ARTICLE 1. a. The game shall be played between two teams of not more than 11 players each, on a rectangular field and with an inflated ball having the shape of a prolate spheroid." LOL. These are "the teams."
It goes to explain who these rules apply to: "Persons Subject to the Rules ARTICLE 6. a. All persons subject to the rules are governed by the decisions of the officials. Those persons subject to the rules are: Everyone in the team area, players, substitutes, replaced players, coaches, athletics trainers, cheerleaders, band members, mascots, public-address announcers, audio/video/lighting system operators, and other persons affiliated with the teams or institutions." I.e., the teams playing that day.
We need fireworks.
Fireworks after every Michigan scoring play. I've seen this in person at Neyland and it is amazing:
Yes, a OneMoreYearFund for Kobe and Hunter specifically could make a big difference!
Is Hunter coming back?
This. The Redditor has a crackpot theory that makes no sense in reality. Even as poorly as OSU coached that game, "oh I have an idea, let's fake them out by making it 11 yards for a first down instead of 6" is not plausible.
Really interesting how the stickers reflect such different philosophies with two different focuses: individual accomplishments vs. team accomplishments and tenure ("Those Who Stay Will Be Champions").
Brings to mind a comment one of the Michigan coaches made to me after The Game last year: Michigan was a great football team, and Ohio State was a collection of incredibly talented individuals but not a very cohesive team.
I'm very curious to see if that is a one-time state of affairs or a difference between the programs that will persist.
I completely agree. I have a hard time seeing OSU imposing its will on a fully-healthy Michigan, but that's the big question.
Unclear what's going on with our most reliable receiver (Schoonmaker), best DE (Morris), one starting CB (Gemon Green), best return man (AJ Henning) and RBs 1a (Corum) and 1b (Edwards, who is also a great receiving threat) (plus a couple OLs--Trevor Keegan and Trente Jones). With all of those guys out, we're toast unless JJ and the WRs miraculously play lights-out (not holding my breath). But it seems some of them were just resting this weekend.
I'm genuinely curious to hear whether an OSU fan thinks the Michigan team that demolished Penn State would get out-physicaled by OSU. That seemed like an impossibility to me a few weeks ago.
Agree. And this will be exacerbated when he plays more athletic teams like OSU and UGA.
This is Harbaugh's entire philosophy. His strategy is risk-averse and ruthlessly effective, as long as we play mistake-free. It seems old-fashioned and frustrating when we make mistakes (as college kids are wont to do), but when we play reasonably clean, it just grinds opponents to dust. Thankfully, both teams usually bring their A-game to The Game.
You might be interested in this platform as well:
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