Michigan vs. Arizona St. (MBB) Snowflakes
November 18th, 2022 at 12:38 AM ^
I wasnt responding to your take just FWIW. Someone in the game thread said "burn the tape" and I just thought I'd share my old school take. Remember when Beilein brought in Donlon/Yaklich and we all switched from talking about "pick & pop" to "tag & replace". The concept of "tagging" on defense is physical touch on purpose. When you play a great defensive player, there is always "contact" and its bordering the edge of the rules. This team has no physical contact in their bag, and that is how shooters go off on us. They're never touched, and therefore we are never in their heads. At the very least your team has the collective toughness to flatten a guy trying to dunk on you up 20.. like the Pitt player did to Isiah Barnes in our last game. We may have beat Pitt by 20, but they defended their dignity. I'm worried about the culture/toughness right now with this team.
November 18th, 2022 at 7:40 AM ^
Very good point about physical touch on shooters. Basketball is such a rhythm sport. It’s worth a few fouls here and there to keep some contact on a guy and just try to make him feel uncomfortable. I watched the first half before falling asleep and we didn’t do a great job of that. The few zone defense possessions made it worse.
November 18th, 2022 at 1:28 PM ^
I agree. Michigan has now had two games where guys and teams go off. I don't think Michigan makes guys feel uncomfortable. They gave up some threes that were technically closed out but not really closed out. Ie, the guy was close, but he didn't have hands on them, so the guy just rose up. People in the comments say, bad shot, but shooters love to have feet set and just rise up. You have to make it tougher.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:38 AM ^
DP oops
November 18th, 2022 at 12:39 AM ^
Michigan played really good basketball just one night before. Solid in every phase. But then shit the bed tonight. I think I am going to chalk this debacle up to early season weirdness. This game has a ton of teachable moments. Let's hope the coaches pounce on it and the players listen and improve.
November 18th, 2022 at 7:43 AM ^
Pitt may have been the worst team they played so far this season.
November 17th, 2022 at 11:59 PM ^
This is the type of game UM should have lost by 8-10 points, not close to 30. Had UM hit an average number of 3s (so like 8 instead of 4) and ASU an average amount (so 7 instead of 11) this is a 1 point game. Not saying that has to happen in a game but ASU wasn't playing amazing defense and UM wasn't awful defending these shots.
This team is going to be another project that will probably get better as the year progresses but still has issues at PG that aren't likely to be fixed any time soon. Hope is that Dug gets a little stronger offensively and Bufkin continues to show improvement.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:01 AM ^
Bufkin and Llewellyn threes, along with Reed free throws, feel like certain doom
November 18th, 2022 at 12:09 AM ^
Bufkin took some shots seemingly out of frustration; Llew just missed shots that I assume he should be able to hit. My bigger concern with him was the turnovers; that's something that should wind down as the season progresses (like Jones last year) but Bufkin looked like the better playmaker and if that's the case then your PG can't turn the ball over 3 times.
Again, it's one game and I'm inclined to chalk it up in part to dumb luck. It certainly didn't feel like UM's shots in the game were different than the ones ASU got but UM missed theirs while ASU canned a ton of their own.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:26 AM ^
Last year Jones was pretty bad for 3 months than pretty good the final month or so. Hopefully our PG this year improved. We were 7-7 last year and made sweet 16.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:00 AM ^
Terrible game
On a positive note, glad Yoyo Khayat got a little more playing time. He looks confident and was demanding the ball and hit a 3 when he finally got it! I have a feeling he'll have a Moe Wagner moment later in the season when he figures out the flow of the game and earns significant minutes.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:02 AM ^
Username checks out
November 18th, 2022 at 7:48 AM ^
I doubt it happens…I know a lot of ppl are holding out for “the great European hope” but I don’t think he’s a Wagner type player this early in his career. No one is coming to save us. The hope is that the players that are playing improve. None of the bench guys are going to have this light bulb moment that will spring us to a Final 4 run.
November 18th, 2022 at 9:35 PM ^
I don't think he'll be a star this year. I think he'll be solid contributor later this year who might one day (couple years or so) become a star.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:03 AM ^
There’s a few things I don’t understand with Howard’s teams. 1) the complete lack of fundamentals. Martelli has been a head coach before and Saddi coached with Beilein so it’s not inexperience at this level. Poor free throws, shooting, ball handling and defense. 2) Who is responsible for the guard recruiting and development? Whoever that is needs to go. Not recruiting elite point guards so we try to pick up transfer guards to play over the ones we recruited. We’ve done it twice already with Zeb and Frankie and doing it again with Dug. 3) What is Howard’s offensive and defensive identity? My questions start from recruitment and onto the court. Too many players of the exact same size and ability. Williams, Tschetter, Jace and Glenn are all undersized fours with limited athleticism. Our shooting guards and point guards are undersized as well. I think the poor defense goes back to poor fundamentals. Players are often off balance, out of position, don’t communicate and lunge matador style at players. He needs to seriously evaluate some things right now and not just based off of tonight. The EMU game should’ve been a warning sign. I’m not in fire Howard mode but some changes need to be made going forward. What do the assistants bring to the table as far as development, coaching and recruiting?
November 18th, 2022 at 12:04 AM ^
That play when Llewellyn was at the top of the key and he saw there was an open lane to get to the rim, he hesitated but then realized yah it's open and I should drive, then he took an awkward long dribble and then lost the handle and then fell. That was tough to watch. And it reminded me of Jones last year. It's tough to watch as a fan of a program that was so good this last decade.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:05 AM ^
Arizona State has made the first four twice under Hurley and nothing else. They lost to Texas Southern and OT vs Tarleton State so far this season and just beat Michigan by 30.
Long season but it’s hard to find what this team does well outside of feeding Dickinson in the post. Free throws? No. Threes? No. Rebounding? No. Passing? No.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:06 AM ^
That is the worst I've seen the men's bball team look in 10 years.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:21 AM ^
Whats really frustrating about a game like this is you get down big and never even make a run. I don't think we got closer than 15 in the second half. Why was there no fight and no spark. I know it's just counts as 1 loss, but would be nice to go out fighting.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:08 AM ^
I guess things can only improve. I hope they do improve and can be competitive during the B1G season.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:16 AM ^
Mediocre recruiting, development and coaching. We're going to seriously miss that Big Dickerson Energy next year.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:20 AM ^
Reed better improve exponentially throughout the year and off-season because he’s gonna be the starter and the bag on Kante is that he’s a project. We better hope Jett doesn’t bolt for the NBA after this year too.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:16 AM ^
Llewellyn llooks llost out there. Very hesitant. Williams looks disinterested. That said, ASU hit a lot of stupid shots. Michigan isn’t as good as they looked against Pitt or as bad as they looked tonight. Take your L and move on.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:19 AM ^
Revenge game for Frankie Collins dissing the program and we showed up with a nothing burger. Totally flat. Couldn't match ASU's energy. Not even close. This was in the top five worst Michigan basketball games I have ever watched. We could barely make baskets in garbage time with our starters still in. If you told me we were paid to throw the game I would believe you.
It was sickening watching Collins rub it in our faces as he celebrated on the bench. Where was the effort and heart, M basketball?
November 18th, 2022 at 12:28 AM ^
Even for Juwan you would think he would want to beat Collins to let him know you shouldn't of left. Collins basically validated his decision.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:44 AM ^
The only way Frankie would help our team this year is defensively. I really liked Frankie but I feel as if Jaelin was sought after because Frankie’s offensive upside was limited. The bad thing is, Jaelin hasn’t brought any shooting to the team either. Where Michigan is really losing out is at guard recruiting. I don’t know who is responsible but it has been abysmal for top shelf guard recruiting, especially at point guard.
November 18th, 2022 at 7:06 AM ^
Rough game, yes, but I think you're overrating the "Frankie" factor. I'm sure he was motivated, but how much do you think the Michigan players cared about that particular issue? For whatever reason (maybe some bad decisions on his part) Michigan didn't work out for him. Several Wolverines are still probably on good terms with him.
There are numerous other more-important concerns related to the game.
November 18th, 2022 at 10:52 AM ^
Well that's a big problem if you have a team full of dudes who didn't mind Frankie calling out Michigan a few months back. Frankie was super hyped about it and our team sleep walked the whole game.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:19 AM ^
Not going to write off the team just yet. We've all watched this team struggle in early season games for the better part of 10 years now. Breaking in 3.5 starters is bound to produce some growing pains and clunkers like tonight.
November 18th, 2022 at 10:24 AM ^
The loss to NJIT was 8 years ago. That Michigan team featured LeVert, Walton, and Irvin. Coach Beilein was 7 years into his Michigan tenure. ASU is a much better team than NJIT and that’s reflected in the final score. Sometimes, one team’s A+ game occurs against another team’s D- game. That’s why the NBA plays best of 7 playoff series. I’ll let the season play out a little more before I start with the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(long story short, I agree with you 100%)
November 18th, 2022 at 10:54 AM ^
Upsets happen. At least that NJIT game our players fought till the very end. Beilein teams once he was established rarely went out without a fight. Juwan teams get thumped several times a year where it's not even competitive.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:36 PM ^
Beilein teams regularly played teams in the 300s. Efforts like last night can still get UofM a victory against bad competition (like NJIT). Efforts like last night turn into blowouts against teams with a pulse.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:31 AM ^
The transfer train of point guards needs to stop. It’s the most important position in the college game and Mike Smith was the exception to the rule when it comes to grabbing a dude from the minor leagues. It takes most of the season just developing the dude into an average conference player and then none of that carries over bc he’s gone after one season. It’s like a one and done recruit without the upside.
November 18th, 2022 at 7:08 AM ^
Remember that Mike Smith walked into a much better situation (many veterans plus a transfer that worked out in Chaundee Brown) and still didn't light it up right away.
I agree, though, with your general point. I wonder if Juwan is underrating the difficulty of integrating new players at the college level.
November 18th, 2022 at 9:15 AM ^
Smith could shoot the ball and that was evident right away. He had one bad early game (v Oakland, IIRC) but other than that was good from the start and shot +40% on 3 pointers for the season.
November 18th, 2022 at 12:34 AM ^
Izzo is going to purposely foul out two bench players on Tarris Reed.
November 18th, 2022 at 9:57 AM ^
Bro - why would he need to? Have you seen the difference between the two teams currently? I don't think they need to bother
November 18th, 2022 at 12:51 AM ^
Ugly game. Tough to find a bright spot. From Seth's recap it just sounded like a game that Michigan wasn't hitting easy shots and ASU was hitting everything... Doesn't mean Michigan should not have lost, but the score wouldn't have been quite as lopsided.
that said, sometimes a good ass kicking can get you to refocus on things that a close loss wouldn't have
Hopefully, the team can mentally flush this one and play better next game...
November 18th, 2022 at 4:57 AM ^
That was EMBARRASING..Learn to play some FUKING DEFENSE...that was awful
November 18th, 2022 at 7:18 AM ^
This team is not good, JH is not a great coach. The farther away from JB’s teams the worse it gets.
November 18th, 2022 at 7:20 AM ^
Recruiting slasher type point guards that are stars in high school because they are just quicker than everyone else but who can't shoot a lick has been a trait of Juwan's and it has to stop. Good teams have point guards that can knock down the three ball and can make free throws.
November 18th, 2022 at 7:46 AM ^
Under Howard michigan has been extremely mediocre and that looks to continue
November 18th, 2022 at 9:12 AM ^
Elite 8 + S16 + BIG Championship is mediocre to you?
The COVID canceled season would have been a 2nd weekend team the way they were rounding into form by the end as well.
My my have the expectations gone up around here.
November 18th, 2022 at 7:54 AM ^
When Kobe Bufkin stops playing like a Culver’s AA, instead starts playing like a McDonalds AA we will be alright.
November 18th, 2022 at 11:52 AM ^
Culvers >>>>>> McDonalds
November 18th, 2022 at 8:01 AM ^
These snowflake threads, whether in basketball or football, just suck, mainly because it’s hard to sift through the junk comments for the truly insightful (or at least fair) comments about the game. Someone who didn’t watch the game would come here and think Michigan was just a terrible team with no hope of doing anything this year.
For this game, ASU shot lights out, well above their season averages in fg, 3pt, and ft percentages. And it came in a game where Michigan shot well below their season averages in everything but free throws. It’s no wonder it was a 25 pt loss, with their lead hanging around 30 for much of the second half. It’s also no wonder that Michigan couldn’t make a run at any point. Some of that can be attributed to defense, but not anywhere near all of it.
Sometimes you just gotta tip your cap to the other team and say good job.
November 18th, 2022 at 9:46 AM ^
Sometimes you do. But sometimes you don't.
Shooting can be contagious. Confidence grows quickly after you hit a couple shots. So, its not unreasonable that a team can get hot. However, ASU cooled off in the first half and started to both turn it over and throw up bricks.
Michigan did not take advantage - bizarre no calls on goaltending an carrying not withstanding. We turned it over, we threw up awful bricks by Bufkin, Baker, and Llewellyn. Just awful shots in no offensive flow.
Our team seems like a far less talented version of Kentucky. There is an offense - sometimes - but most of the time, there is a lot of dribbling, a lot of confusion, and poor passing and poor shooting. And, its not player dependent.
I saw Williams, Bufkin, Llewellyn, Dug, Jett all take it on themselves to just attack the defense and chuck it at the rim. No design, no play to kick out. No pull up game. Nothing. Just - shit, nothing is happening, ill just go at it myself.
The problem with us resembling a disorganized Kentucky, is that we don't have anywhere near the talent to make up for the gap.
We were sold that Howard would probably produce less technically sound teams, but would put better players and athletes on the floor and probably play a style that would be exciting and take advantage of those players. Except, where are those players? By swinging and missing on a lot of transfers and recruits, we now have to hear "this team is young'. Where is the development of the players? When 3-4 of these guys transfer out, and we replace them, will we just keep making that excuse?
There is very little attention to detail - we know what that looks like. Its when a player makes sure that his pass hits the shooter in his hands so he can go right up with his shot. Not to the side, not making him lunge, not at his feet. Its offensive players knowing where they should be at all times on the court on offense and defense, not allowing guys to get open dunks and layups constantly through a game.
There is very little attention in the macro sense as well. Defensively, we are constantly out of position, too slow to move our feet, and we commit some AWFUL fouls because of it. Or, we play matador D and guys are getting inside on us with nobody around to protect the rim.
We tend to get bludgeoned when we lose. It speaks to mental and system weakness. Our players dont trust in the system to keep pushing and try to fight back and we mentally don't seem strong enough to withstand a barage and come back with one of our own. That speaks to mental toughness that we do not have. Franz, Simpson, Moe, others all had that. Where's that toughness on this team? When they went on their run early last night, our heads were down and they had no fight. When ASU finally started missing, we couldn't take advantage. Bad badness.
November 18th, 2022 at 8:37 AM ^
Set your expectations much lower.
November 18th, 2022 at 9:04 AM ^
Snowflakes. More like...yellow snow!! Amiright?