A conversation with a Buckeye fan at The Game
I put off posting this for a bit because I didn't want it to seem like an emotional reaction. There were a few Buckeye fans sitting a row in front of me. Before kickoff I was of course amped up and probably feeling the effects of a few pre-game beverages. I started making some lighthearted (obnoxious) remarks to them about bagmen, Cash Young, etc.. They sort of laughed at first but then things transitioned to a more serious conversation about the topic. I'll paraphrase but one of the guys said, "Look, I don't necessarily like it but it's how the game is played these days if you want to win". I don't live in Ohio or Michigan so I don't regularly have these conversations with people but this was the first time I heard someone simply say "yeah, we do this. The ends justify the means". While I might not respect the thinking I certainly appreciated his honesty. We were both very respectful with one another and he actually seemed like a knowledgeable person. When Dobbins scored a touchdown he looked at me and said, "cha-ching!" which I gave a wry smile to.
I apologize if the title isn't to your liking but I'm curious if others have experienced conversations like this as well? I only seem to read on various message boards the "deny, deny, deny" culture. Here was someone who openly admitted, without direct knowledge of course, that he believes the team he roots for cuts significant corners in order to lure top talent. I appreciate your responses.
December 5th, 2019 at 9:02 AM ^
This fan knows what we know... insinuations that are likely to be true. However, where is the hard evidence they are cheating? Where is the hard evidence that we are not cheating? I appreciated Steve Deace's take on this on his most recent Michigan podcast. I know he is unpopular to many around here, but he basically said: "If OSU is cheating, call them out to authorities to level the playing field." Bo did it to Illinois in the 70's, Woody did it to MSU in the 60's. I think that is a fair take. Stop passively-aggressively referring to their cheating and have the courage of convictions to officially call for the investigation. If you (i.e. Harbaugh, Michigan AD) are not going to call for the investigation, it comes off as pathetic to complain about the cheaters.
December 5th, 2019 at 9:18 AM ^
What authorities?
December 5th, 2019 at 9:31 AM ^
What Authorities is exactly right! DJ Fluker told the cf world he and others were directed to Agents. Santonio Holmes was going to be investigated for having an agent while at ohio. NCAA didn't investigate any of it. They completely ignored Fluker's admission as he just left bama for the nfl. Holmes they said it was 5years ago but they were notified before that. Cam Newton and Auburn/MissST. The SEC Bagmen article that spelled it out to land recruits. Fluker said Alabama told him which agents to go to.
At this point there is not one single reason not to allow cash bagmen. Not to tell players word of mouth, hey see this agent. Anyone notice how much ohio's recruiting went up even more when Urban Meyer took over. It was obvious.
December 5th, 2019 at 9:46 AM ^
Sports Authority?
December 5th, 2019 at 10:20 AM ^
Give this man a +2
December 5th, 2019 at 10:37 AM ^
energy blue,
never heard of Santonio Holmes. Found this:
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/10/13/agent-jets-santonio-holmes-accepted-money-at-ohio-state/
There is no mystery folks, this has been going on forever!
December 5th, 2019 at 3:21 PM ^
Stupid double post....
December 5th, 2019 at 3:22 PM ^
The freshman rb for OSU their NC year (can’t think of his name) admitted to money filled handshakes....
December 5th, 2019 at 3:34 PM ^
Maurice Clarett.
And he was later caught with all sorts of fun things in his trunk when he was in the NFL
December 7th, 2019 at 10:08 AM ^
And was suspended for it and never played another snap for OSU. He grew up in Youngstown very poor. He took money from boosters and took advantage of opportunities from his player status while in columbus. His best childhood friend was murdered while he was practicing for the BCS championship vs Miami. I don't think anyone would not turn a blind eye to a kid that has endured what he has before his 20th birthday of the $100 handshakes. I could give a rats ass if impoverished teenagers take money from boosters once they get on campus.
What I don't want to see is kids getting money to sign for said school.
PLover, is it just OSU or is psu and Wisconsin also cheating in order to beat a squeaky clean wolverine team? I think psu like osu has out recruited um as well, are they cheating as well?
Maybe young nfl wannabes want to play for the top 2 programs putting guys into the league? You really think Saban has to bring $20k to his in-home visits to sign a 5* in florida? Saban has had the #1 recruiting class every year except 2018, which they got it back in 2019.
Yet everyone outside of AA believes Rashan Gary chose um over Clemson and $75k just to play for Harbaugh and a UM team that at the time were lucky to have a couple guys drafted on the 2nd day? Lol, i mean thats basically what most um fanboards portray.
Personally I don't think Saban is buying players to sign.The best want to play for the best. What happens on campus, I'm not distraught about $100 handshakes, or loaner cars from the local horsetraders. You know the little used car lots that you can finance a $3k beater for $15k after financing.
December 5th, 2019 at 5:27 PM ^
Yeah, but how much did he practice?
December 5th, 2019 at 8:17 PM ^
Santonio Holmes has an agent while he was at OSU!!!!! OMG, how is Michigan ever expected to win a game!?!?! What chance do we have?!?!? They need to look into that ASAP. I bet it is even worse than the rumors. I bet he had two agents, one from State Farm too, just like Aaron Rodgers.
December 5th, 2019 at 9:51 AM ^
NCAA and/or Feds
December 5th, 2019 at 10:00 AM ^
Probably not a Federal matter, therefore there are no authorities.
December 5th, 2019 at 10:11 AM ^
It is a federal matter. There is precedent for this as well in NCAA hoops.
December 5th, 2019 at 10:22 AM ^
You are really naive, Indy Pete. The DOJ focuses mostly on drugs and terrorism. Every once in a while, they will throw a bone to another type of case for appearances. If you think they have a firm commitment to enforcing NCAA rules . . . wow.
December 5th, 2019 at 10:25 AM ^
Nah, there is already precedent in college hoops... within the last year.
It is a principle thing - stop complaining about cheaters in a passive aggressive fashion. If you believe you have evidence that it is true, call it out publicly and specifically.
December 5th, 2019 at 10:40 AM ^
The major problem is institutional control. The Entire state of Ohio acts as if it has a moat around it and the Ohio State football program is protected as if it's a sacrosanct institution.
Tattoo gate (from some who have told me) was far worse than reported because very powerful influences squelched the story even after it was out (think Frank Pantangeli at the Godfather II hearings)
The Powell police department altering arrest records last year to keep said records from being eligible for FOIA requests.
Urban Meyer laid waste to every program he has been at, somehow he escapes openly lying to the media, gets a modest suspension, quits and the program is stronger than ever before?
There are myriad other examples. But these are the most obvious.
So it's difficult to blow the whistle when an entire State is behind the cutting of corners. It's OK to hide in plain sight when your brother is the Sheriff. It worked for Porky (until the end of the movie).
December 5th, 2019 at 11:10 AM ^
I do not believe that police department would alter arrest records to protect a football program.
And if you have knowledge of such criminal activity you should report it, don't just post about it on a message board.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:39 PM ^
Do you believe a bus carrying the Michigan Marching band to Columbus is fast enough to get a speeding ticket?
December 5th, 2019 at 1:10 PM ^
strictly speaking yes.
Many highways (Especially in Ohio) have sections with the antiquated 55MPH speed limit and I can imagine it is possible that bus travels faster than 55MPH.
It isn't criminal for the police to write you up for speeding when you were only going <5 over, its just a dick move. It is very criminal to falsify arrest records to avoid FOIA requests.
I concede that Ohio cops are dicks, but I don't concede that they are a part of a criminal conspiracy.
See the difference?
December 5th, 2019 at 10:40 AM ^
Do you read? Did you catch the part where I said the throw a bone to wildcard cases for appearances? And tell us, Pete. What has come from this oh-so-serious college basketball/fed case? You are next level stupid if you think they actually care about that bullshit.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:03 PM ^
Attorney here with several friends who work in the DOJ as AUSAs and several more who work at State Assistant Attorney Generals. Drugs and terrorism are the big focus, but there are entire divisions dedicated to financial crimes like this, not to mention the civil side of it. They have a ton of enforcement actions. We just never hear about it because it doesn't make the news.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:38 AM ^
I'm not sure about recently, but the DOJ gets fairly involved in antitrust cases, which is really the only basis to get involved in NCAA squabbles like this.
December 6th, 2019 at 12:23 PM ^
You had the corruption in the shoe companies that got the Feds involved in basketball, and then they got the wire fraud between agents, players, coaches. That is less likely to happen in football, but that doesn't mean bag men don't exist. Here's a good article on that on SEC bagmen, which we know exist, wouldn't be surprising if OSU also used them. The other things with OSU like optional classes, making up bad GPAs in the spring, summer with courses like golf are not something the feds will be interested in. The ncaa could, but they have always been more concerned with recruiting than what happens when the athletes hit campus.
https://www.bannersociety.com/2014/4/10/20703758/bag-man-paying-college-football-players
December 5th, 2019 at 10:12 AM ^
What, exactly, has the NCAA done to give you any confidence in their ability to investigate a big-time program like Ohio State with any semblance of competency and/or transparency? Let alone punish them with consequences severe enough to discourage cheating in the future?
December 5th, 2019 at 10:17 AM ^
Or the B1G. I've always advocated for enforcement being done more at the conference-level vs. the NCAA-level anyway.
That said, I do agree with your point on "courage of your convictions."
December 5th, 2019 at 12:45 PM ^
The B1G is one of the main benefactors. It's not in their interest to enforce. It's in their interest to field a competitive team (or teams) on the national stage.
They also benefit from the value of a $2billion franchise that exists in columbus.
December 5th, 2019 at 10:19 AM ^
Are you aware that the NCAA has no subpoena power?
December 5th, 2019 at 10:21 AM ^
Yes, I am. Are you aware that federal agencies do have subpoena power?
December 5th, 2019 at 10:24 AM ^
Sounds like a good use of their time and resources! Also, it's funny how your posts always have one upvote on it immediately after submitting. Poor, dumb Pete.
December 5th, 2019 at 10:54 AM ^
Giving someone a cash gift isn't illegal. Ed Martin got subpoena'd for his other activities that did have legal ramifications, and some of the Fab 5 was caught in that net that allowed the NCAA to see what it was looking for.
But a car dealership owner handing some cash to a recruit as a 'gift' isn't illegal. Now, there could be tax implications that would interest the IRS, but that's the extent of it. This is primarily an NCAA issue where they're trying to maintain their facade of CFB athletes being amateurs, which more and more people are seeing through. It's time to end.
December 5th, 2019 at 9:19 AM ^
Bo was also concerned about steroid use in the mid 80's, so he called up a buddy who happened to be a Fed and asked him to look into it. Including potential use by our own team.
Imagine a coach today doing that.
December 5th, 2019 at 9:22 AM ^
Woody ratted on MSU in the mid-70s. They were on probation in 76/77/78. That's why MSU didn't get to go to the Rose Bowl in 78.
December 5th, 2019 at 9:49 AM ^
nothing has changed at MSU with regards to steroid use
December 5th, 2019 at 10:34 AM ^
These 40 year old stories are so cool, guys. Keep 'em comin!
December 5th, 2019 at 9:32 AM ^
Listening to the podcast right now.
He's spot on with everything. All we have as a Michigan fanbase are excuses. All they do is win.
December 5th, 2019 at 10:16 AM ^
I think the evidence is that there is something drawing players there besides success. Success isn't enough to be drawing THAT many top 100 and 5 star players there on such a regular basis. Recruiting ebbs and flows, but OSU recruiting has gone from consistently good to consistently absurd even with a new coach. Columbus isn't that nice of a place, but something is bringing kids there and keeping kids there even when they don't play until their senior year
December 5th, 2019 at 10:27 AM ^
Everything is a positive feedback loop.
Since 2000 OSU has the most overall draft picks in the country and is tied with Alabama for the most first rounders:
OSU: 131 overall, 31 first rounders
UM: 83 overall, 14 first rounders
Wisconsin: 81 overall, 15 first rounders
Top talent wants to get drafted, and OSU has the best track record of doing that. Whether this is because they recruit better or develop their players better is like a chicken or egg argument.
But I can say this, if Michigan recruits better than Wisconsin, then Wisconsin develops players better than Michigan. That is the only way to explain such similar NFL Draft results.
https://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/2019-04-27/college-football-teams-most-nfl-draft-success-century
December 5th, 2019 at 10:41 AM ^
Because the prospect of showcasing his talents on a big stage and winning an NCAA championship isn't enticing to a kid who's dream is to play in the NFL? Come on man...
December 5th, 2019 at 11:47 AM ^
And what was done for that to happen -- do you see the point now? The kids come to get drafted and win rings. They won rings because the kids came. If it takes money to start the cycle, give them everything to come to Michigan -- it's 2019.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:01 PM ^
Could it be when you turn on an NFL game it looks like a recruitng video for OSU? The New Orleans Buckeyes ring a bell? Very prominent players in the NFL playing elite like the Bosa's, Zeke, Michael Thomas? NO IT HAS TO BE CHEATING! Players come to play college football to make it to the NFL. No one gets players to the NFL like OSU does.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:30 PM ^
Have you seen the girls there?
December 5th, 2019 at 10:23 AM ^
Do we recruit better that Wisconsin? Do we recruit better than Iowa? Do we recruit better than or equal to Penn St? It's not just recruiting. This team had more mental errors than physical errors. Hudson lined up off sides in the Army game to give them another chance. He jumped off sides on a punt that we didn't have a punt block called. Tarik Black ran out of bounds on a 3rd down play instead of putting his head down and running over the CB for the 1st down. This team has other issues, which I believe are correctable. Yes OSU has more talent, but Michigan took itself out of the game with a fumble, dropped passes, penalties, and just a lack of toughness.
December 5th, 2019 at 10:32 AM ^
And who is responsible for most of that? The toughness, playing smart, penalties?
That's on your head coach.
December 5th, 2019 at 10:46 AM ^
Yeah, our mistakes probably cost us, at most, 10 -13 points. The rest of the deficit in the game was them just having more talent than us.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:14 PM ^
Shea lost a fumble in the redzone. That potentially cost us 7 points.
DPJ dropped a TD pass. That cost us four points.
Hudson jumped offsides to keep their drive alive, and they scored - 7 points.
Haskins made the wrong cut on 4th and 1 and we turned it over on downs when he had a long gain, potentially a TD - 7 potential points. Plus, OSU then scored on the short field, so this is potentially a 14-point swing.
I might be missing some, but that's a lot right there.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:40 PM ^
Yes, all of this.
It felt less like a demolition this year, and more like an inferior team making more mistakes because, well, they aren't as good as their opponent. If even half of those things go the right way, we're talking about a game that goes down to the wire. Probably still a loss, but maybe not.
You never know what will happen when things get tight. That's when teams make mistakes, even the favorites. Clemson almost lost to a vastly inferior NC team. PSU made a game of it with OSU despite being statistically dominated and having to use a backup QB, because OSU was making mistakes and PSU was capitalizing on them.
December 5th, 2019 at 10:25 AM ^
And if (Harbaugh, Michigan AD) aren’t willing to call them out, it either means you don’t have any evidence OR you are likely cutting a few corners yourself.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:00 AM ^
Anybody that thinks any major CF power is squeaky clean is not being realistic - and that includes UM. Give them credit. They've been one of the top 2 or 3 CF powers since the early 2000s - maybe the top one considering Alabama had some horrible teams before Saban in the early 2000s. But yet our first excuse - they cheat. Go back and watch this year's game. The critical fumbles and mistakes like jumping offside on 4th down, the numerous 2nd half dropped passes,,,,,,on and on, Nothing to do with OSU cheating but more on us and our boneheaded blunders and shaky coaching