2018-2019 UM-OSU outliers in terms of points scored by OSU.
https://bentley.umich.edu/athdept/football/umosu/results.htm
Ohio State managed to score 62 and 56 points in the 2018 and 2019 games. These were the most points scored by an OSU team vs Michigan all time. The scores immediately prior to the 2018/19 games were 31, 30, 42, 42, and 42. The games after 18/19 saw 27 and 23 points scored. A much more common point range for OSU in this series when you look at the games.
If I am Michigan I am going back to those games and doing some digging. We know OSU has a legacy of cheating. We know that they will go to great lengths to hurt Michigan(Steinbrenner signing away Henson).
Ohio State has deemed it fit to attack Michigan’s integrity. Okay, we can and ought to do the same. Time to fight dirty.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:38 AM ^
In the second half, Brady completed 12 of 14 passes for 131 yards, two touchdowns and zero interceptions, as New England scored 28 points. That would seem to indicate that, if WEEI's report is accurate, the deflated footballs provided no apparent advantage to New England.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:46 AM ^
Let it go-
The Michigan - OSU rivalry will be settled where it should be- On the Glorious Field of Combat!
October 24th, 2023 at 11:11 AM ^
2nd this. We got our asses kicked in 2018-19 because of inferior personnel (No DT's and no CB's) and a grossly deficient defensive gameplan which exposed our weakness much more than necessary. Fired the DC and changed schemes led to 27 & 23 (halfway to 100). That's what made the difference, not OSU cheating.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:53 AM ^
Mattison knew Don Brown's calls - but that's now why we lost. No crying here. We were outmanned, outcoached, outplayed, etc, etc.
Ryan Day is an absolute bitch and that program is soft as Charmin under him. Guy cried about Clemson, then UGA, now UM. NCAA selectively prosecutes, as we all know.
Ryan Karen Day called the manager because he is unhinged and knows what is coming at the end of November. All of this is just noise, which OSU put out into the media because
1) Ryan Day was born on 3rd and knows a 3rd loss in a row, and potentially a really lopsided one is on the table this year. Coaches just know. They watch film, they break down players and plays and the opposing team. He knows what they are rolling with, he knows what we are rolling with, and he is petrified of how ugly this year's game can get for them. The eyes don't lie.
2) OSU fanbase and program has gotten so entitled and fragile after owning the rivalry for 2 decades. All that pressure is now on Day - a weak and soft man - so he is looking for a deflection. A well crafted PR move and leveraging the NCAA's pre-existing vendetta with Harbaugh (for statements he has made about rev sharing, arbitrary rules, how they don't help but hurt players) was coward Day's move.
Take it as an absolute acknowledgment from OSU that UM has passed them. The game is about preparation, film, scouting and mental and physical development at the highest level, specifically when dealing with "equals." OSU has been "cheating" for years with benefits, cash, bags, no school, etc - and we whined, but our coaches never went full Karen and cried to the NCAA. Day did, and the NCAA bit because Harbaugh bad!!!
TLDR: Ryan Day is a born on 3rd bitch and they will get trucked again this November.
October 24th, 2023 at 12:06 PM ^
Would it be too Spartany to call him CRyan Day? or maybe Cryin Ryan?
October 24th, 2023 at 12:25 PM ^
Maybe, but follow your heart.
October 24th, 2023 at 12:33 PM ^
3B Day works for me.
October 24th, 2023 at 2:08 PM ^
Cyan Day.
For the life of me, I have no idea why this hasn't caught yet.
October 24th, 2023 at 12:12 PM ^
I don't think it's fair to call Ryan Day or OSU soft. Tough guys throw bubble screens on 4th and goal from the 2 all the time!
October 24th, 2023 at 10:47 AM ^
Yeah, they stole our signs, but could easily have done it legally in this case. I heard from a former coach that Don Brown called in the defense himself without any decoys, and never changed his signs during the years he was at Michigan.
So anyone studying us carefully (which would clearly include the team that dedicates at least one coach solely to us) could decipher our calls after a few years with great accuracy. As I recall, it felt like OSU always knew exactly what play to run against us. Turns out, they did.
Interestingly, Jim didn't seem to realize Don was being a dumbass with his signs, because he didn't install decoys or urge Don to change his signs. This suggests that Jim really is a delegator, which would suggest he doesn't get into the weeds on stuff like Stalions's sources and methods.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:03 AM ^
This is consistent with what others have said too. I believe Isaiah Hole has claimed that OSU had Don Brown's signs figured out by 2018 and utilized that effectively for the duration of his time at UM. This feels like a back and forth battle between two schools trying to get the upper hand on the other's signs.
October 24th, 2023 at 4:48 PM ^
Do knowing an opponents sign really give you that big of an advantage though? To almost double the scoring output?
October 24th, 2023 at 10:48 AM ^
Ok, this just makes us look pathetic.
There's a non-zero chance they did something illegal that year. Same for us, by the way. At this point it's irrelevant and you'd be grasping at straws looking for something. Michigan's biggest sin with this scandal is getting caught. And holy hell, did Stalions apparently want to get caught because he didn't even do the bare minimum of covering his tracks.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:57 AM ^
When someone hits you you hit back. That isn’t pathetic. That is standing up for yourself.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:30 AM ^
I don't agree with SQ often.
But when I do, it's about this sign stealing bullshit.
Keep up God's work Salvatore!
October 24th, 2023 at 12:59 PM ^
Hitting back is one thing, this is more like whining back. Like how Ryan Day hit back at Lou Holtz
October 24th, 2023 at 11:00 AM ^
I actually think our getting "caught" (though we didn't clearly break any rules) was inevitable if/when we ever got this good. I.e., someone would squeal, because whiners. Particularly tough guys who dye their beards. Wouldn't matter if he tried to hide the paper trail. Day didn't figure this out because of Stalions's Venmo account. He figured it out by looking at the sidelines.
I actually view this all very positively: we figured out a loophole, which is what you're supposed to do--take advantage of the rules without breaking them--we got really really good, and we have such a great rivalry that OSU is losing their minds. We've broken them. And all this intrigue is hilarious and supremely entertaining. It reminds me of the stories I've heard about Woody and Bo hiring PIs to find each others' spies.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:13 AM ^
We didn't get really, really good because a nobody had his friends tape the sidelines of other B1G teams. That is a ridiculous narrative that we should never entertain. We got good because we got really f**king good.
October 24th, 2023 at 3:12 PM ^
Wait a minute! You're saying that John O'Korn wasn't as good as JJ?
My how the team has improved, always remember the long drought in mediocrity under Hoke and RR.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:31 AM ^
It remains to be seen whether or not this is actually a loophole, and whether or not Michigan successfully exploited it, and whether or not the NCAA will care when handing down punishment.
This is not a positive thing. This is a huge deal at the worst possible time for the program. Maybe it all results in relatively little, but I think the jury is still very much out on that.
October 24th, 2023 at 12:07 PM ^
Handle does not match the post.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:53 AM ^
This is nothing, but it's way better than the far too many Michigan users on Reddit this morning who have put their tails between their legs in a vain attempt to appease our rivals, so at least there's that.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:55 AM ^
I'm done. I'm out on this. I started really getting angry last night (as was probably obvious) but I'm out on this today. There is not an outcome that involves Michigan not playing the rest of its games this season so I'm just going to enjoy that. There is nothing anybody can do about this at this point. The NCAA can do what it must.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:57 AM ^
...MATTISON!!!!
October 24th, 2023 at 10:57 AM ^
Sorry, OP. I've never bought into the idea that Steinbrenner gave Henson an unusual contract just so he'd leave (Michigan) football. (Some Henson in this long piece: https://riveraveblues.com/2018/02/mark-prior-drew-henson-missed-star-potential-1998-draft-165767/ )
If you're 21 years old in 2001 and someone waves 17 million dollars (close to 30 million in today's dollars) in front of you thanks to Casey Close, what do you do? Pass on it, play another year of football and risk injury?
Considering the outcome (being just barely good enough to get a cup of coffee in two pro sports), I think Henson made the right call. No, I don't believe that he would've meaningfully progressed in either sport if he'd concentrated solely on them. He had plenty of time in both.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:23 AM ^
Henson would have lit it up as a senior and would have been the #1 pick. Who knows if he would have lived up to the pick, but his odds of succeeding at QB would have been a lot better. I'm happy that he got paid, but he could have been TB2.
At the time, if I remember correctly, people thought the contract was disproportionate to how good he was at baseball and that turned out to be correct.
October 24th, 2023 at 12:03 PM ^
Both are possible here. Steinbrenner may have liked Henson's potential as a baseball prospect and (as a big OSU booster) wanted him off Michigan's sideline. It does not have to be one or other.
October 24th, 2023 at 12:36 PM ^
Fair point. I still can't imagine a famously tight-fisted guy spending all that money on a minor-leaguer not guaranteed to make the show. To put it another way, I'm guessing A way more than B here.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:58 AM ^
Sigh.
I'm girding my loins for the inevitable deluge of posts like this one over the next couple of weeks. I'm fully expecting literally hundreds of "my very important thoughts on things" threads to be created instead of simply offering this up as a comment in one of the many other threads already up and discussing this very thing.
Been through RichRod, Hoke, the OC wars and finally the 2014 coaching search. I know what's coming because history, at least around here, always repeats itself.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:06 AM ^
See, days like this are when snowflake threads make sense - put all the crazy into one place and not "hey, remember this other time a team clearly figured out the signals of an opponent" 15 times a day.
Again, the issue here isn't that UM figured out some signs; I promise you every team has guys trying to do that every game. The issue is how they procured this info and if it ran aground of some poorly-defined and archaic NCAA rule from 30 years ago.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:30 AM ^
The problem is that the snowflakes tend to think they're too important for their wisdom to be buried in snowflakes threads.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:01 AM ^
Do we have to be reminded of this? It was truly painful to watch. The Don Brown defense was completed dissected by Urban Meyer and we returned the favor to Third Base last year when he employed the same defense.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:03 AM ^
Honestly, I don't give a shit about figuring out someone's signs and adjusting. NW sure seemed to know UM's offensive gameplan and calls in 2018, and OSU adjusting to Don Browns's defensive schemes and calls is part of the game. That's part of football.
Again, this whole controversy is breaking everyone's brains and while I know this board can get just as conspiratorial as anyone else posts like this don't need to exist just to prove that point.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:07 AM ^
Sorry, but seeing Michigan being accused of cheating by a school that has decades of cheating behind it has made me furious beyond reason.
I don’t know if they cheated or not. But I do deeply resent people undermining the efforts of these players and coaches with horseshit pseudo ethical claims of cheating.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:18 AM ^
I'm in the same space. Overall, the OSU hypocrisy is beyond belief. I'd like to know what discussions took place before they aired their concerns on the matter.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:31 AM ^
I'd suggest an anger management class, rather than embarrassing all of us with shitposts.
October 24th, 2023 at 2:11 PM ^
The only person embarrassed by this is me.
Anger management classes won’t do a damn thing. Getting pissy over someone else’s emotional post is dumb.
October 24th, 2023 at 12:00 PM ^
I mean, if Stalions went and paid for people to go games and record them, it's clear he thought he was getting around some type of prohibition. That's "cheating" given one interpretation of the rulebook, and at this point you're going to need to come to grips with that. I agree it's not the earth-shattering offense that some in the media want to talk about but much like the Burgergate situation you can absolutely point to rules that were either explicitly or implicitly violated here.
Now, jaywalking is also breaking a rule. Not coming to a full stop at a stop sign is breaking a rule. Paying someone to record games is a greater relative offense than that but I don't think most reasonable people would see it much beyond a mid-level violation, one that costs you some money and gets you probation. But this fanbase does need to accept that unlike the burger situation this was clearly someone realizing there was a limit to what he could do and trying to get around it. The fact a bunch of other programs do so as well is somewhat immaterial at this time, as apparently those other schools don't have a guy with a hard-on to punish Harbaugh running their operations.
October 24th, 2023 at 12:07 PM ^
Is it, though? So, on the one hand, as a Michigan staffer, he was absolutely required to know the rulebook in a way that you or I are not. But, on the other hand, his total lack of operational security suggests to me that he didn't think he was doing anything wrong.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:05 AM ^
Elisabeth Kübler-Ross stages of grief:
- Denial: This can’t be happening.
- Anger: Why did this happen? Who is to blame?
- Bargaining: Make this not happen and I will…
- Depression: I can’t bear this; I’m too sad to do anything.
- Acceptance: I acknowledge that this has happened, and I cannot change it.
While these are not stages that occur in order, I think most people start with denial. I think most of our fan base is in denial.
I think I'm still in denial, but I'm moving through it. Sign stealing is wrong, but how wrong is it? Does everyone do it? Did we really gain an advantage from it?
SalvatoreQuattrro is in denial, but has some anger mixed in there, or maybe it is bargaining. To his point it would be helpful to have proof that eveyone is doing it. Seems like that would be hard for random fans to do.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:08 AM ^
I think most of the fanbase is around acceptance, only they're annoyed that a bunch of people in the media and other fanbases are acting like this is some hitherto-untoward practice (and a bunch of them seem to believe that the sign stealing itself is illegal, which is another layer of stupidity).
October 24th, 2023 at 11:11 AM ^
Rage is what I am feeling.
Sign stealing isn’t illegal. If it isn’t then what is the point of the bylaw?
This controversy is complete and utter bullshit.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:17 AM ^
I was there last night, combined with alcohol. But I woke up this morning and realized that there is not one thing I can do/think/say that is going to have any impact on anything. Nothing.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:23 AM ^
Only problem is it is known they lack integrity so they have too high a body count to feign virtue.
This is the essence of why UM is disliked.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:26 AM ^
There's two reasons osu scored all those pionts
1. Don
2. Brown
October 24th, 2023 at 11:31 AM ^
Michigan got beat those years because OSU took advantage of massive glaring weaknesses in our defensive gameplans that suited their strengths extremely well. On top of the fact that OSU was just "ready for the moment" and Michigan, to be blunt, wasn't.
That said, if Michigan has any dirt on any other schools that they think might've ratted on them with this sign-stealing issue, I don't know why I don't consider going nuclear here and telling everyone involved "If you want to bring me down, fine, but just know that I'm taking you with me."
October 24th, 2023 at 11:51 AM ^
Okay, this was too conspiratorial and I deserve the negs.
But the hypocrisy surrounding all of this is infuriating as is the slander of the players.
Not a good idea to post when emotional.
October 24th, 2023 at 12:08 PM ^
It is an infuriating situation.
It is "real" in the sense that it is happening and there will be consequences.
But it is "not real" in the sense that anything that Stalions did made any difference to anything or that he could not have gotten the same video from other completely legal sources.
So its both completely real and completely fake. It's a tough pill to swallow for sure.
October 24th, 2023 at 12:15 PM ^
GO BLUE SAL that’s all that matters
October 24th, 2023 at 12:18 PM ^
Your last sentence there should be in the MgoBlog banner.