🔒USWNT
I didn't watch the game, but was able to watch the highlight of it. Boy, USWNT did not look good and was fortunate that they were able to draw against Portugal. Yes, they don't have some of the players, but still, poor half against the Dutch and a poor game against Portugal is a cause for concern as they move onto the knockout rounds. The coaching and tactic has been predictable at best.
The world has started to catch up to the USA and they're much more technically proficient than them. The lack of youth development compared to Europe has started to bite them in the butt. Also, the rest of the world's younger generation has had more training compared to 10-20 years ago. That's JMO on my observation with Women's Soccer thus far.
Thoughts?
[Thread locked and warnings issued. Several offensive posts deleted. See Moderator Sticky Thread for details.---rob f]
August 1st, 2023 at 10:11 AM ^
yep -- usa had survived and won for a few decades by just being better athletes/faster/taller/etc. than everyone because the other countries just weren't caring or investing anywhere near the same into women's soccer. now that that's done and there are flourishing youth programs / women's leagues in all of these countries, it's going to take a lot more.
August 1st, 2023 at 10:17 AM ^
Kinda ironic given people's complaints that the US did not invest enough in women's soccer after they dominated, given that they dominated because the US invested much more than other countries did at the time
August 1st, 2023 at 10:21 AM ^
As the great Yogi Berra once said: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."
The ladies team is no longer dominant because they have been too dominant for too long.
August 1st, 2023 at 10:41 AM ^
You're comparing two different things though. People were complaining they weren't investing enough when compared to the men's national team. I don't think anyone ever complained they weren't investing enough as compared to Vietnam's women's team.
August 1st, 2023 at 10:53 AM ^
There are plenty of investments, but how they go about it is what's wrong with USA soccer. It's pay to play and they care more about games than training whereas it's the opposite in other countries where they care more about training than games.
What kind of investment do people want to see from USWNT or soccer in general? I feel like soccer has been over-invested and are now burning kids out. I have a 13 yo that has been playing for 10 years already. The past 4 years has been 3 practices a week, 9-10 months of the year. There is so much pressure on the good players, it's out of control. There is a highly sophisticated network of teams and scouts starting at 10-12 years old. We hold my daughter back from progressing to better teams because the commitment is not sustainable for the majority of families. My wife and I both have jobs and we have 2 other kids (who also play soccer). To move to the next level (state-level players) would require a commitment of about 15 hours per week of practice (including travel time) and traveling for games 15-20 weekends per year. My daughter is going into 8th grade and is also really good at basketball. She's already leaning towards quitting soccer to play basketball in HS with her friends. Even though she's never played organized basketball, I think she is more likely to pursue basketball in college than soccer. So, in my opinion, soccer suffers from too much publicity (investment?) at a super young age. Kids can play soccer way before any other sport but I think they leave it behind or burn out as they get older. If you're good at soccer, you don't even play for your high school because it's not competitive enough. I guess it's similar to EYBL except that is only 3-4 months of the year, mostly for HS kids, doesn't overlap with HS basketball season and is mostly funded/sponsored by Nike. So I'm wondering, what do people think soccer should invest more money into?
They should be going towards European model with tons of training and very little games and the coaches needs to be UEFA certified as well. As it currently stands, it's too much traveling and games. I believe only having 3 to 5 tournaments per season would be sufficient because 15-20 weekends per year is way too much. They need to develop players via training, not playing games.
Just logged on to upvote and say this is spot on......seeing it across the board in many sports....international methods of schooling/training are years ahead of ours and it is beginning to take shape.
August 2nd, 2023 at 12:57 AM ^
Could not agree more on all points. Sadly, the club sports machine and the early brainwashing of parents with the promise of college scholarships is a powerful force to fight against.
I agree. My daughter is 14, and started playing soccer at 4. At 9, her soccer coach brought a few of the girls from the rec league to play division 3 select soccer. She had a lot of fun playing for a few seasons, and was encouraged to try out for the division 1 team which she made. That was a whole new world to me. The team practiced twice a week all year, and 3 times during the season. If they had a bad game or had a break, they would practice over the weekend as well. Many of the girls on the team had a private instructor they would work with on days there was no practice or games.
I told her she could keep playing as long as she wants, but it was up to her. At one point when I told her it was soccer practice, she grunted in frustration and slowly got her things. At that point, I told her it was our last season with that team, and now she is much happier having fun again playing with her friends at school. As you said, and am fairly sure most of the more talented girls are playing select instead of school, but as long as she has fun I am fine with it.
Well, all the kids who can't afford any of that from three on, as both you and I did with our kids. We did much the same as you, to the point where my daughter was runner up and then winner of area player of the year in high school, traveling thousands of miles a year, playing with a traveling team out of a distant city. And then pulled up short, refusing to let her ride the bench for the couple of D1 schools that wanted her and sending her to a D3 program where she is content starting and starring from day one and studying in a comfortable environment where she is not totally lost, as we feared she might be. That took a lot of negotiation, and we're glad she embraced this vision, as well. But it's a world, locally, full of petty rivalries and jealousy--which we're all too happy to have behind us.
But--more to your original question--it's very hard to just pursue pleasure and exercise for your child in such an environment, probably for most sports. Plenty of casualties.
You've very accurately described the issues with travel soccer - burnout & over training are 2 big issues. Traveling across state for games when kids are in 1st grade is honestly ridiculous. We should be investing in local programs that ensure kids receive training from qualified coaches in town. Training should be fine and not overly competitive at the early age groups, but with a focus on developing technical skills. Things like futsal are great for this.
I'm mostly spitballing ideas. Looking at what small countries like the Netherlands, Belgium and Iceland do for their youth programs would instructive in how we should be structuring our youth programs.
I think the OP has a pretty questionable take here. The USA is the 2-time defending champions, who appear not to be fielding a particularly good team at present, and this somehow means that they're falling behind the rest of the world. That's not much data for an amazingly bold conclusion. Perhaps it's the coaching alone, or perhaps this team has bad chemistry, is too young, etc. Because great soccer power Germany has looked atrocious in the last 2 WC's does that mean the world has caught up? Has the world caught up to Brazil, who probably could still field a 4th string squad that could get as far as their 1st-string, as the country is so deep with talent. I would argue that in both of these cases it is less about talent than about coaching, chemistry, and now a entrenched generational mindset of underachieving. I think the USA needs to look as mediocre as Germany for 10 years before this kind of bold conclusion has teeth.
August 1st, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
Ex-player (16 years) and current Fox commentator Carli Lloyd said after the game that the team "lacked passion" and "I'm just seeing a very lackluster, uninspiring, taking-it-for-granted, where winning and training and doing all that you can to be the best possible individual player is not happening." ESPN
To my very untrained eye it seems that way to me as well. I wish they loved playing for the US team as much as I love rooting for them.
August 1st, 2023 at 10:35 AM ^
Carli was also not pleased with the team, especially the veterans for dancing and laughing on the field following the lackluster 0-0 draw. Too often people make a lot out of seeing athletes in moments but in this case I believe she’s right.
This team doesn’t have it, and they should be leaving that game pissed but they’re not. Expect them to be eliminated in disappointing fashion.
https://twitter.com/awfulannouncing/status/1686344505773948928?s=46
I wouldn't write them off yet. The 2015 team didn't play well in the group stage, drawing 0-0 against Sweden and beating Nigeria just 1-0 in the last two games. They went on to roll through the playoff stage and win it all.
The problem is that the heroes of that world cup are some of the same players we are expecting to be the heroes this world cup.
But 2015 Alex Morgan ain't walking through that door.
We have this expectation, maybe based in some notions of American exceptionalism, that our teams should always be transcendent. That players should kill themselves for us. They're kind of the victims of their own success. I'm cool with the other countries embracing the game and getting better, catching up. If there's a bigger problem, I don't think that Adronovski has outfitted them with a style. They're no longer bigger and stronger--the Dutch towered over them. Sometimes your day passes, and you lose. There's a new generation coming up, though. What if they'd been really daring and just played all young players, said--openly--we probably won't win this time, but watch us in four years!
August 1st, 2023 at 10:37 AM ^
I didn't watch the game personally, and I'm not challenging what Lloyd said, but I am kind of tired of American soccer commentary. Lloyd and Lallas clearly know the game and how its played, and that makes me long for the kind of analysis for soccer that we get with football. Like a Joel Klatt analysis at halftime and after would be easy enough I think.
Maybe it's just too easy to go to the "they don't want it enough" well time and again rather than explain how to break down a team when they load everyone but a striker in the box. (This is why our shots come from distance, from heavily contested crossing attempts, and in transition). This tends to show a lack of creativity or inability to adapt on the part of the manager or an arrogance on the part of the program as a whole. Regardless, my guess is that every player loves being there and is pouring out her heart and soul for the team. They need a better game plan, not to "want it more."
August 1st, 2023 at 10:47 AM ^
I never thought about that, but it is very true. Our Soccer analysis at halftime has always seemed to be a lot more whiny / personal against the individual players or coach than you would hear during a football, basketball, baseball halftime/postgame show.
August 1st, 2023 at 11:11 AM ^
Part of the equation is that FOX has always opted for the loudest, brashest personalities as its primary strategy for any kind of studio work. It's no accident that the network that kept putting microphones in front of Cowherd and Whitlock believes the Lalas and Lloyds of the world are great.
Stu Holden is very Klatt-like in my opinion, knowledgeable and sound, but both of them are color commentators and not talking heads.
August 1st, 2023 at 11:57 AM ^
Agreed. Lalas is well known for his terrible takes about the game. The problems are tactical. They should be questioning the coach not the players.
August 1st, 2023 at 12:34 PM ^
Lalas making the post 2022 WC commentary about himself and his feelings/opinions. For some reason jumping in and making the ridiculous comment: “Messi, relative to other players, doesn’t move me. I’m not necessarily a fan of Messi”.
It's no secret that Lalas and Lloyd are conservatives; they fit the Fox mould straight up. Not something to pussyfoot around about, probably; they're coming after players whose approach they don't approve of. They were right about one thing at halftime, though; we were getting outplayed.
August 1st, 2023 at 11:13 AM ^
Going into the game, the USWNT knew they only had to draw to finish 2nd in Group E and advance. They also knew they had no chance of finishing 1st in the group. All they had to do was not lose, and they would advance. I think this definitely influenced their approach and amount of passion shown. As we have all witnessed, playing not to lose is the gold-plated invitation to be upset, and it almost happened. I'd expect a better performance when more is at stake.
August 1st, 2023 at 11:59 AM ^
Uhh they definitely could have finished first. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that they couldn't. Now, would they have finished 1st given the way the Dutch lit up Vietnam? No, but coming into the game they were in 1st and had a +2 goal differential edge over the Dutch. They flat out didn't play well.
August 1st, 2023 at 12:20 PM ^
Mathematically we could've finished first, but our GD was effectively +1, as if we both won and tied in GD, the Netherlands would've won the group due to fewer yellows. It seemed likely that they'd be able to make up that GD, though I wasn't expecting a 7-0 romp.
August 1st, 2023 at 12:28 PM ^
Sure but the post I was replying to said the US had "no chance" to finish 1st which is ridiculous. All the US had to do was win and only be outscored by one by the Dutch team. It was only impossible to finish 1st once the Dutch scored 5 in the first half.
The Dutch were always going to destroy Vietnam (the worst team in the whole field?). For us to thrash Portugal by a similar amount would have been something. The likelihood of us winning the group heading into today was slim at best.
It's neither here nor there probably. To not score at all against Portugal, to salvage a tie in such rickety fashion, is what is concerning. If we had cruised past Portugal 2-0 or 3-0 (and finished second in the group), we all would be more or less optimistic about the chances in the Round of 16. Alas.
August 1st, 2023 at 11:18 AM ^
"I wish they loved playing for the US team as much as I love rooting for them"
With all due respect, I think you have no idea how much they love playing for the US team.
That said, they haven't played well and will get bounced if they don't step it up, as early as next game against (likely) Sweden.
August 1st, 2023 at 11:43 AM ^
We do know that some (a small number but a vocal number) have shared their displeasure about the country they represent. I would assume that would effect play to some degree.
I know I would struggle giving my all for UM if I fundamentally didn’t care for what UM is.
August 1st, 2023 at 12:11 PM ^
You guys honestly think that they 'fundamentally don't care' for what the United States is? Get outta here. You think they don't care about the team or the country?
It's their right to protest however they see fit and 'not singing' seems perfectly acceptable to me. And they can voice whatever opinions they like. I don't engage in anthem politics (but then again I typically don't sing the anthem myself, does that make me not care about my country?) and I wish others wouldn't protest via the anthem. But, this is their literal silent protest. Keep in mind, this is a team of women who have fewer rights than they did when they were at this tournament four years ago. And many gay members of the team have even fewer. I think they understand America just fine.
I generally find it odd how some people always find ways to root against our American women soccer players and Olympians. But I guess they're all "patriots".
August 1st, 2023 at 12:18 PM ^
yeah to add on, how many of these people complaining about their protests also love to talk about "free speech"
August 1st, 2023 at 12:44 PM ^
Or to rail against cancel culture? Kap says, "Hi."
Brittany Nuff said
August 1st, 2023 at 12:51 PM ^
Yeah, sorry, it's not a good look. They've certainly lost me and I was always a big fan of the USWNT. Protesting is fine, but it goes both ways. They have a right to protest and I have a right not to give a shit if they lose. And it will affect your performance if you don't care about the crest on your jersey. I feel bad for the players who have won championships and gave it their all being stuck with a handful of petulant brats as teammates.
Oh, and Megan Rapinoe was a great player who is also an asshole. Not just because she's gay, but because she's an asshole.
So your last sentence "not just because she's gay"....that implies you think she's an asshole at least partially because she is gay...is that what you mean?
edit: so you downvoted because you can't answer the question? Seriously what does being gay have to do with anything here?
You are correct there. I should have said "not because she's gay." That was my intent. My mistake. The rest of it I stand by.
It's called a Freudian Slip.
lol. sure, a simple misstatement.
‘Not just because she’s gay’, i hate her for other reasons too
You’re making a common but very damaging mistake. Voicing displeasure with your country and a desire for things to change is a critical part of participating in a democracy. It shows love for a country by working to improve it. It doesn’t mean they don’t care for their county. No nation is static, we’re all making it what it is all the time
The down votes to your spot-on comment says a lot about members of this board.
August 1st, 2023 at 11:43 AM ^
Are they more concerned about equal pay and making a statement during the anthem? Asking for a conservative friend....
August 1st, 2023 at 11:45 AM ^
That's fair, I dont. But I do know they dont like singing the national anthem
August 1st, 2023 at 12:11 PM ^
It is not difficult to understand why women in the U.S. would be less than enamored with the state of affairs in the U.S. So maybe they are feeling a bit dispassionate, and I don't blame them one bit.
Who IS enamored with the state of affairs in the US?
My hispanic immigrant in-laws (half of whom are here on asylum) are very enamored by the state of affairs in the US. Hearing their stories of what they left reminds me of what I take for granted here in the US.
It's a little bit difficult to understand.
- 90% of the prison population are men
- 80% of assault victims are men
- 70% of murder victims are men
- 70% of the homeless population are men
- 85% of the war deaths are men
- The majority of suicide are conducted by men
- The majority of the college population are women
- Women get 4 times the college scholarships than men
- Women live longer than men
- Women are generally happier than men
- Women are not subject to conscription
- I could go on (but I also understand that there are some statistical disadvantages with women)
I have 2 kids, a girl and a boy. Pound for pound, I have to keep a much closer parenting eye on my son than by daughter.
With that, I'd like to make clear that I'm perfectly fine with people kneeling or not singing the national anthem. I've never been offended by that (but then again, I get offended so rarely these days)
Also women still don’t have to register for the draft.
All time war deaths has to be much higher than 85% male. Women rarely were in combat zones until Vietnam.
Reformers think they know all and we just have to believe what they say and follow their path to salvation. Raw hubris.