Will the B1G Get Rid of Divisions? If so, How to Avoid an OSU/Mich Rematch?
I'm assuming that the B1G will be forced to get rid of divisions once the 12 team playoff goes into effect, so that we can ensure that we don't have that fluke time where an 8-4 team from the Western Division wins the B1G Championship Game and thus sending a mediocre team to represent the B1G in the CFP. earning a spot in the CFP. Is my assumption correct that the B1G will get rid of divisions?
My only concern (and it's a big one) with the B1G getting rid of divisions is the good possibility that there will be years where the Michigan/OSU game will be pointless because we'll already know in advance that they're guaranteed to play eachother again in the title game the following week. That would be so incredibly lame. Is there any way the B1G could configure things to avoid that? Perhaps they could add a clause that the 1st place B1G team automatically goes to the title game while the 2nd place team must not have already played the 1st place team that season. If they have, then we go to the team with the next best record that hasn't already played the 1st place team? I don't know... just spit-balling here. Any ideas?
October 20th, 2022 at 2:47 PM ^
Hey WW. While this isn't a terrible conversation to have, it isn't probably the best thing to post as a new topic. Generally speaking if you have a lot of questions and very little in the way of new information, the post won't be very well accepted. Add to that the pure speculation and assumptive commentary and it's bound to get negged.
So to answer your many questions, no one really knows what will happen once the CFP expands and once the Big## expands. What i do know is no 8-4 big ten west team has ever, nor will ever threaten the playoff, unless there was some sort of insane luck and huge wins- think Illinois loses to #1 OSU #1 M and #10 PSU by a total score of an Iowa game minus 1, and i still can't come up with a reasonable fourth loss in this league. There would be Cincinnatis or ACC teams more deserved.
October 20th, 2022 at 2:52 PM ^
I think OP was theorizing that the 8-4 team would win the conference championship game and get an auto bid
October 20th, 2022 at 2:47 PM ^
I guess I don't really see a problem with them playing twice. I think maybe we need to consider moving The Game so that it's no longer the last game of the regular season, but i think there could be some epic rematches where one team gets better throughout the year leading up to the championship. I know that's antithetical to The Game, but the real Game then becomes the Championship, and I could see some real classics there.
USC is also going to be pretty damn good again, so I'm more worried about how they get scheduled. Would hate to see Michigan have to play USC and Oregon in a season where Ohio plays Wiscy and Nebraska or something. I really just wish they would start doing NFL type scheduling where some slots would just be filled based on prior year performance.
October 20th, 2022 at 2:54 PM ^
I think maybe we need to consider moving The Game so that it's no longer the last game of the regular season, but i think there could be some epic rematches where one team gets better throughout the year leading up to the championship. I know that's antithetical to The Game, but the real Game then becomes the Championship, and I could see some real classics there.
College football will be dead to me the moment this happens.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:12 PM ^
I mean, I just think changed. If we're moving to a 12 team playoff, there's a chance the U of M and OSU could end up playing 3 times in one season. I think the best parts of college football are the variety of play styles amongst the teams and the general chaos relative the NFL. The Game and the current format are just no longer compatible, and what's the alternative? We all have our gripes about how the current format isn't working. I think there could still be a really great October matchup between UM and OSU that has the early form teams compete. You then get years where you have well oiled machines battling it out in a Championship game. I do think they need to make the Championship game a home game for the team with the best record. That could set up a whole new era or great football. I'd love to see Michigan vs USC at the Big House in December for a Championship game. That could develop into a great rivalry.
October 20th, 2022 at 2:55 PM ^
Move the game up earlier in the year. Might not be popular, but makes a lot of sense to prevent a "meaningless" game versus each other at the end of the season.
October 20th, 2022 at 4:12 PM ^
Or at least don't play it on the Saturday after Thanksgiving when most of the students are gone and 1/3 of the ticket holders happily sell their tickets to Ohio State fans.
October 20th, 2022 at 4:19 PM ^
in the expanded playoff era, CFB should start on week 0, thanksgiving should be conference championship weeken, NYD should be the semifinals, M-OSU should be the last game of the regular season, and the way to avoid rematches is Seth's showcase idea - or say that if you've already lost to the #1 team you missed your shot (the omar method of seth's showcase)
October 20th, 2022 at 5:14 PM ^
100%. Everything will get moved up anyways so the history of it being after Thanksgiving will be gone. Might as well make it an October or early November game. Students actually on campus, folks not traveling for holidays. It's different but it makes sense for a lot of reasons.
October 20th, 2022 at 5:23 PM ^
It's only been after thanksgiving for like 10 years. Up until 2009(?) it was the Saturday BEFORE thanksgiving. It has, however, been the last game of the regular season since 1934. Personally, I think that is important, and would not want a rematch of any of our games from the regular season, and think with such a large conference the showcase idea is the best way for that to happen.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:04 PM ^
Divisions are stupid and should go the way of the Dodo. They should've been gone once CFB removed the requirement for divisions to hold a conf. championship game. Additionally, specific rules just to avoid one scenario are doomed to failure, defeat the purpose of moving to a non-Division structure and likely will have unintended consequences.
The only two reasonable outcomes are (i) either live with the potential for a potential rematch the following week; or (ii) move The Game to a different week.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:09 PM ^
Seth already posted a solution that I like:
https://mgoblog.com/content/case-big-ten-showcase
It's similar to Nate Silver's debate-style tournament from a few years ago:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/make-college-football-great-again/
October 20th, 2022 at 3:48 PM ^
I forgot how much I liked Seth's Showcase system.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:11 PM ^
Every other conference has had to deal with some version of this, and the world hasn't imploded yet, so not that concerned.
The real solution: Either build up a reputation (either by continued success year after year OR playing real teams out of conference so you always have the resume) so that you can consistently get in with a loss.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:12 PM ^
If we're going into a 12 team playoff, we're already there.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:11 PM ^
I'm not sure if I'm serious about this or not, but here's my heretical idea: Move OSU Michigan to the CFB season opener, noon the first Saturday.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:15 PM ^
I hate this idea. M vs OSU should never be Summer football. I just think something like first week of October. Like first real game on each team's schedule. Then they go off, polish themselves and potentially meet again.
October 20th, 2022 at 4:37 PM ^
An early season match-up is easily the best solution for OSU, Mich, and the Big10 in general. OSU and Mich will most often be highly ranked early in the season so TV can have their big match-up. This means the winner of the game has a top win and the loser doesn't drop too much. The teams both get a chance to grow during the season and if they both do well the meet again at the Big10 championship. If both teams have one loss to each other and both games were close they both have a good chance to seed well in the playoffs.
The SEC has figured out chicken-shit Saturday games so teams have a chance to heal before their big games and post-season. Big10 has willingly put themselves at a disadvantage this last decade or so.
October 20th, 2022 at 10:41 PM ^
The SEC has figured out chicken-shit Saturday games so teams have a chance to heal before their big games and post-season.
I think this is one of the smart things the SEC has done, working the system. They have also useds it to sprinkle a few good conference games in September to get the conversation started early.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:32 PM ^
Unfortunately, something like this may have to happen.
Expanding the playoffs dilutes the importance of the regular season. In addition to the back to back problem, eventually we could have the unintended consequence of teams resting their starters at the end of the year. Which happens to be rivalry week for many teams.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:14 PM ^
I would tweak the championship criteria. The top two teams play for the championship unless the game would be a rematch. In that case, the third place team replaces the prior loser. If that is also a rematch, the third place team gets dropped and replaced with the fourth.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:20 PM ^
This sounds great, but think of how pissed you are gonna be when we lose in 2OT at the Shoe to a one loss OSU team and then don't get a shot at the title. Plus, this would turn out some really weird years where OSU beat USC early in the season, beats M and ends up playing a 6-3 PSU for the title or something. College football teams tend to get so much better throughout the season because of all the roster turnover. It just seems unfair to punish teams for early losses.
October 20th, 2022 at 4:12 PM ^
I could be ok with making that first weekend of December a 10th 'flex' conference game where all the teams play (not just the top 2) a game against the nearest similar-record conference opponent they hadn't yet seen that season. E.g. 8-1 USC plays 9-0 Michigan, 8-1 OSU plays 7-2 UCLA, etc.
Then count that as a conference game and use the old rules for determining a champion. Could do it at home stadiums of higher-placed team (or team that had only 4 home games), or do a Fri/Sat weekend in Indy. Either way, it would sort out most of the problems from the old days (e.g. two teams go 8-0 in conference but didn't play each other) without the bad solution of unfair divisions or awkward rematches. There would be a rare three-way tie scenario, in which case we could have tiebreaker rules or co-champs.
Even if it doesn't settle everything perfectly it would be a full weekend of great matchups, almost like an in-conference 'bowl' for the middle/lower schools
October 20th, 2022 at 4:17 PM ^
So a championship game that isn't a real championship game? Great friggin idea
October 20th, 2022 at 5:26 PM ^
Calling it a championship game and deciding who plays is always a matter of semantics and priorities. How is having two teams that already played a game play each other again more of a championship game than the first game? After all, they already played and we know the result.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:19 PM ^
Uh no.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:22 PM ^
if we have a OSU rematch so what? I dont understand all the negativity of this happening..It beats sitting at home when the B10 championship game when we are #1 or #2
October 20th, 2022 at 3:26 PM ^
Just get rid of the Championship game. Highest ranked playoff team from BIG gets the title. Avoid the stupid injuries before playoffs, and the majority of the time this will probably be the winner of the Game.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:41 PM ^
Ugh, we're going to determine the conference champ based on a poll? No thanks.
If there's no championship game, the conference should just return to "co-champs" when two teams are tied and haven't played each other (as was the case in 2002 with Iowa and OSU and 1996 with Northwestern and OSU).
With 16 teams and no championship game, co-champs will also be a lot more common than it was with 11 teams (in that situation, teams missed playing 2 other conference teams b/c they played 8 games, now, teams will avoid 6 other teams unless they go up to 10 games, which they won't.)
October 20th, 2022 at 5:17 PM ^
negged
michigan has been fucked plenty by the pollsters in my lifetime, and that's only going back to 1978
if there is no outright champ, i would rather have a toddler roll dice on a craps table to determine the champ over pollsters who potentially have an agenda.
i'm good with getting rid of divisions and championship games, but leaving anything up to the pollsters is a bad idea
October 20th, 2022 at 3:26 PM ^
If people are going to throw heretical ideas like moving The Game, I might as well unload some wack juice:
Do it pseudo-basketball style. Cut the number of regular season games, then have a conference tourney...except split into two separate brackets to reduce overall number of games and time. Top 8 teams go to conference tourney. It's a little odd, but the goal is to reduce the number of rematches.
October 20th, 2022 at 4:02 PM ^
The regular season is essentially a round robin tourney. You can lose one but you cannot lose too many to advance.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:30 PM ^
Don't worry about it. Yes, this is a possibility, but either Michigan or OSU will get a conference loss the week before the championship game, so basically the only way this could happen is if the loser of The Game comes in undefeated in conference and the winner of The Game has no more than one conference loss. Otherwise, it's highly likely that at least one other conference team will have no more than one loss.
Yes, it would have happened last year if we didn't have divisions, just as described above. It also would have happened in 2018, also as described above (Michigan came into The Game undefeated in conference, and would have had the tiebreaker over Northwestern following The Game). But before that, you'd have to go back to Armageddon 2006 for that to be the case.
It doesn't seem worth it to jump through scheduling hoops, whatever those would be, to avoid a Michigan-OSU rematch if we get rid of divisions. Something like your proposals could frequently result in something like the 4th- or 5th-place team playing the 1st-place team, depending on scheduling.
October 20th, 2022 at 5:03 PM ^
Ha, I mean what you describe happened 3 times over 14 years, much of which was during our darkest years - an anamoly of our football history. We aren't talking about once a generation type thing.
I would have hated to play OSU again last year. Part of what made last year so cathartic was beating OSU, talking shit, and not having to worry about it for another year. Imagine how empty that win would have felt if we had to do it all over again 7 days later.
There is no good solution here - at least I can take comfort in knowing the smartest people in the NCAA are working through this issue and I am sure we're going to have a reasonable answer that makes sense and preserves the integrity of the game we all love. Right?
October 21st, 2022 at 8:52 AM ^
I share your skepticism, and would also prefer that Michigan and OSU don't play in a conference championship rematch. I just don't think there's a way to do that without breaking even more.
Every year, each B1G team will play 9 of the 13 other B1G teams. Without divisions, to avoid a rematch, the conference leader would need to play the best of the four teams they didn't play. There's a decent chance that would end in a team with a mediocre conference record making the championship game, just because all the better teams played the leader.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:39 PM ^
Keep the divisions. So what if an 8-4 team wins the conference. Good for them.
October 20th, 2022 at 5:23 PM ^
it's like life. don't have to be the best all the time every day. but you DO have to be at your best when it counts. you do that, you have a good shot in life.
besides, lets say we lose in cbus. i would rather illinois do the them what we did last year and win the B1G at 9-4 or 10-3. so what no one from the conference go to the playoffs. i'd rather that than see AN ohio state there.
October 21st, 2022 at 8:53 AM ^
It also helps the conference make the playoffs, because it reduces the chance that a dominant team will lose in the championship game.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:39 PM ^
Here's the problem, as we all understand: everyone wants to preserve The Game. With us now back as legit competition for tOSU, there's simply nothing else like it in terms of national appeal, importance, tradition, etc. Certainly the networks want to keep it. But if we get rid of divisions, then you're putting both of those teams (and, let's face it, given recent history, us especially) at a huge disadvantage by ensuring that we play them every year while competing for a title against a bunch of teams that don't. (That's true a little bit now, since most West teams are competing for a spot in Indy w/o having to play tOSU, but at least we don't lose out on the East title to a team that didn't play them.) Before the addition of USC/UCLA, I liked Brian's inner/outer divisional structure - moving PSU, Rutgers, and Maryland to what's now the West in return for Purdue, Illinois, and Northwestern - which would've made the West stronger (though maybe we need to re-think that given how Purdue and Illinois are playing this year) while maintaining all major rivalries (except for the Jug, sigh) as intra-divisional games. With the addition of the LA teams, put them in the West, move Purdue to the East, and you accomplish more or less the same thing (much as I'd love to play the LA schools regularly). I don't want to play tOSU in October, or - even worse - not every year, and I don't want to lose a spot in the B1G title game to a team that didn't have to play them.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:44 PM ^
I want playoff games on campus, and I’d also just nix the conference championship game. It keeps the game as important for playoff seeding without making it a prelude to another game the next week.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:45 PM ^
THE GAME stands on its own merit. Will never be pointless. Let them play in the regular season and whatever happens in the playoffs will be fine. Even if they play again.
October 20th, 2022 at 4:00 PM ^
I'm with you. Back in pre-division days, half the time "the game" had influence over who became conference champions. We miss that paradigm with one team automatically getting knocked out on account of being in the same division.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:50 PM ^
Get rid of the stupid conference title game.
October 20th, 2022 at 3:56 PM ^
so that we can ensure that we don't have that fluke time where an 8-4 team from the Western Division wins the B1G Championship Game
I don't understand this at all.
"Fluke" (I don't like that term in this context -- those teams are playing to win the game) teams by way of comparison get in the playoffs all the time in hockey and in basketball. In fact, it's celebrated in BB <-- "March Madness".
If 8-4 Iowa beats 12-0 t(tm)OSU, the they deserve to be there. That's part of the concept of competition.
October 20th, 2022 at 4:03 PM ^
They would only "deserve to be there" based on what division theyre put in. If they were 8-4 and played in the East theres a 0% chance they'd even be there. A 12 game regular season vs 1 conference championship game seems like a better sample size to me
October 20th, 2022 at 5:19 PM ^
So you are agreeing that they deserve to be there?
If 8-4 iowa beats 12-0 UM, then they earned their spot in the playoff.
October 20th, 2022 at 10:55 PM ^
Michigan schedules the ESPN Bottom 10 for out of conference and the reply to the weak SOS criticism is, "you play your schedule".
So a 8-4 hypothetical Iowa "plays their schedule" but they don't deserve to be there.
Weird.
October 20th, 2022 at 4:01 PM ^
How do you get rid of divisions in a soon-to-be 16-team league where teams only play 9 conference games a year? Seems like that would be wildly unpredictable. (Not that I like the divisional setup either)
October 20th, 2022 at 4:09 PM ^
It sucks that the stakes of the 2006 game will basically never be replicated again. Having a Big Ten title game rematch is going to suck
October 20th, 2022 at 4:10 PM ^
I dont think there is a way to avoid rematches entirely, but I think there were be serious consideration to moving the Michigan-OSU game to earlier in the season to less the possiblility of us playing back to back games.
I know some diehard old heads will complain about it, but the tradition of Michigan playing OSU at the end of the regular reason was really a de facto championship game in an era before official championship games.
If Michigan played OSU early in the season, and both ran the table the rest of the way, there were be so much buildup around the rematch and how the loser is anxious for the chance to avenge the early season loss.