U of M Football GOAT: Denard should be in the discussion
Great article with a lot of stats backing up the idea that he is or should be mentioned among the GOATs of Michigan football. We all know TB is the GOAT in the NFL, but not necessarily the greatest at Michigan. There is a video of his highlights to go along with it. Great to watch. He was the bright spot in a dark time. If only we could have fielded a good defense. He was a generational talent. Enjoy and allow the debate to begin.
April 14th, 2022 at 12:21 AM ^
I'm far too young to have an opinion on the all time GOAT for Michigan, but Denard is mine.
April 14th, 2022 at 11:07 AM ^
He definitely would be my favorite UM QB in my lifetime. GOAT overall would go to Woodson for me but Denard is the man at QB...for now.
legitimately, everyone is too young. There is nobody alive who witnessed Willie Heston and Germany Schultz. The historians - Seth included - have the most noteworthy opinions. But the rest of us should feel free to opine on players we've only seen in highlights - or read about in articles. Your opinion counts
The only person who should be in the discussion for the greatest Michigan football player of all time is Dennis Norfleet.
Or so I was led to believe by certain people.
April 14th, 2022 at 12:23 AM ^
Modern Time=Woodson.
I agree with Woodson.
Also, as far as Denard is concerned, he isn’t the GOAT but I had more fun watching him play than perhaps any other Michigan football player in my 40 years as a fan.
Denard was a lot of fun to watch, but isn't is the conversation.
Woodson is probably the GOAT post-Bo.
During the Bump, Bo and Mo eras, I'd go with Dennis Franklin ahead of Anthony Carter and Tyrone Wheatley. His stats aren't going to amaze anyone in this day an age, but as the starting QB for '72-'74, Franklin's record of 30-2-1 says everything. It was the most dominant period of Michigan football since the '30-'33 run under Kipke.
There are a lot of choices for the Yost to Oosterbaan years. I'm too young and not well enough versed in those eras to have a well informed opinion.
April 14th, 2022 at 12:55 PM ^
Agree on Woodson. Desmond also comes in ahead of Denard, IMO. Dennis Franklin was terrific, but those teams were led by amazing defenses and strong running attacks.
As soon as I saw this thread title, I thought Woodson as well. I started watching/following Michigan in the late 80s, so there’s my personal perspective. I guess it depends on how we’re going to define, “GOAT.”
No disrespect to Denard, but understanding GOAT = Greatest Of All Time, he’s not. Though if you want to take a more holistic approach and take into account the state of the program when each player was there that increases Denard’s value. If you want to expand it beyond “Player of the Decade” and go back to the turn of the 21st century, there’s a case to be made for him, along with Hutchinson, Terrell, Hart, Edwards, Long, Lewan, etc. He and Devin Gardner deserve a ton of praise and credit for how they performed on the field and for how they represented themselves and the university. We have family friends with children who had classes at UM with both these guys who spoke glowingly about them as students.
April 14th, 2022 at 12:31 AM ^
I like and appreciate Denard’s time and effort here, but just no. Not even close. Not even in the discussion. If I got to magically assemble an all time Michigan team to win a championship, he probably wouldn’t even be in the discussion to be my QB.
April 14th, 2022 at 12:35 AM ^
I could easily make a championship level offense with Denard at QB. Just can't have Borges calling the plays
Why the hate for Borges? It was Borges who turned Denard into a serviceable passer. And he still rushed for over 1000 yards.
By far Denard’s best passing season was his sophomore year, a year before Borges
The big ten teams with a winning record they beat were? Throwing up massive stats against Delware St? What were the passing stats against Msu, Wisconsin and Osu? RR offense was so limited that any team over .500 in the big ten was not giving up tons of yards and points. There was a reason the rpo action got an easy td against indiana, illinois, and other bad defenses but the second they faced a good defense those teams went zone, eyes were on denard and they weren't buying the run action with the rb when the rec released.
April 14th, 2022 at 10:14 AM ^
Not sure how you can look at his game logs and say he got better at passing under Borges. If anything, passing was a wash, and his running stats declined.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/denard-robinson-1/gamelog/
Not sure how you can look at his game logs and say he got better at passing under Borges. If anything, passing was a wash, and his running stats declined.
Passing yards and running yards declined from 2010 to 2011, but passing and rushing touchdowns increased slightly from 18 to 20 for passing, and from 14 to 16 for rushing, and we won 11 games vs 7 the year before.
TDs are the only thing that improved. His INTs went up, his YPA went down for both passing and rushing, his completion percentage went down, and his passer rating went down.
And the wins improvement is more likely explained by the defense going from 96 to 16 in total defense.
It's really a mixed bag if you look carefully at his games against good opponents.
Good/Great
2 of his 3 best games were in 2011:
2011 OSU game, 14-17, 167 yds, 3 Td- 0 Int. 170 rushing, 2 Tds. Great, great game + OSU!
2010 ND - 502 total yards, 1 Td, 0 Int. Great game + ND
2011 ND - 446 total yards, 5 Tds, 3 Ints. Great game + ND
Other great games were against lackluster opponents.
Good games: 2010 losses to PSU and WI, surprisingly good stats in 2011 Miss St. drubbing, 2011 MN, NE and NW, 2010 IN
Bad:
2010 and 2011 MSU games - ugh.
2010 OSU - 8-18, 87 yds. passing, 105 rushing
2011 Va Tech bowl game - 9-21 passing for 117, only 13 rushing yards on 13 carries. Oof.
Pretty bad: 2010 and 2011 Iowa, 2011 IL
Overall:
Stats for 2010 are a bit gaudier, but I'd take the OSU win and far better record of 2011.
So total touchdowns increasing by 4 is supposed to outweigh the 4 additional picks he threw? The yards per attempt drop? The 7.5% completion percentage drop? The yards per carry drop? The 10 point drop in QBR?
It’s not even close. Denard’s best year at QB was the year BEFORE Borges.
Borges was not a good coach. Borges was specifically not a good coach for Denard. Putting Denard under center was coaching malpractice.
Wait, I’m confused… are you implying that the outcome of games is indicative of how good of a passing season the QB had? What does beating a Big Ten team with a winning record have to do with QB play? You think Michigan going from one of the worst defenses in the country in 2010 to a top 20 unit in 2011 might have had something to do with the wins?
His completion percentage his sophomore year was 7.5% higher than his BEST season under Borges. YPA was .4 higher his sophomore year (adjust YPA was a whole yard better) and QBR was 10 points higher. His sophomore year, before Borges, was EASILY his best year as a passer. It’s not remotely close.
It would have been nice to see Denard finish his career without the ulnar nerve injury which hurt his passing ability and greatly affected the outcome of his Senior season.
Goats don’t have 5 and 6 loss seasons and if you watch the Sugar Bowl victory Michigan won in spite of Denard not because of him.
Denard is such a magnificent player and Ambassador for Michigan but no Big Ten Titles and too many painful losses keeps him off the goat list. There is always recency bias in “all time” lists.
The ND Denard to Roy night game was one of the greatest fandom moments ever. That stadium rocked in a way that said Michigan Football is back….but we weren’t quite.
Completely agree, Denard changed Michigan football and was exactly what we needed when he came in. The difference maker and possibly the best difference maker in school history on offense with Woodson being the clear GOAT in school history with Harmon second. JMO.
How would his career have finished without that injury and how would it have went on a more talented team? TBH, we won't know.
I don't get the hate on Borges, he had a great offensive attack. The one thing he did wrong was trying to do to much offensively in the run game. And I think part of it was trying to be diverse but the other part was cover up deficiencies on the line and at skill positions. When the two best weapons on the team both were qb's, ie Denard and Devin, that was a problem.
I still only flat out hate one play call and that was the 2pt play vs osu in 2013.. after they lined up and osu called time out, they still came out with the same alignment and call the quick slant to Dileo, ugh... I was hoping coming out of the time out when they lined up that they were going to motion Dileo to mess up the entire defense as they were out of time outs.... alas, nope and they were ready for that play....
You don't get the Borges hate? Really, though?
https://mgoblog.com/content/27-27-document
April 14th, 2022 at 12:59 PM ^
That may have been the dumbest play call in the modern era at Michigan. Let’s see, OSU called a TO to discuss our formation and what we might be calling. What to do? Oh, heck, let’s just run the play we called before! Ruined a magnificent game by Devin playing on 1 1/2 feet.
It was Borges that couldn’t figure out how to get both Denard and Gardner on the field at the same time.
It was Borges that couldn’t figure out how to get both Denard and Gardner on the field at the same time.
As others have said, this isn’t remotely true
Could you? I love Denard but the guy was never a plus passer. I don't think you could do it
April 14th, 2022 at 10:18 AM ^
Deciding to line up Denard Robinson in an I-formation was a pretty dumb idea
April 14th, 2022 at 12:57 AM ^
Just for discussion.. who would you put over him and would their highlight real compare to this one?
I think it's a little bit "apples and oranges." Denard is an all-time Michigan great and could fit somehow into a high-powered offense, but if we're restricting our view to QB we'll have to show all the plays where he just didn't have the touch for long and medium passes.
April 14th, 2022 at 12:26 PM ^
Agreed, Denard was the most electrifying player I remember at Michigan. He probably has the best highlight reel. However, Denard was not a particularly good passer and that hurt the team's chances. He was an excellent player and a lot of fun to watch but not the GOAT.
The day where two buckeyes bounced off him simultaneously on impact was awesome. I thought that was gonna be our day.
Woodson.
Ty Wheatley and Tim Biakabatuka are better runners. Shoot, Haskins moves himself ahead of Denard as a runner this year.
Braylon. Mario. Grbac. Aidan had the next most dominate defensive year ever after the GOAT.
All of them have highlight reels that match or are better than Denard’s. Those were some beasts who dominated in big games.
Denard is one of the nicest and fasted guys every to wear the winged helmet—and he had some great games—but he is not a GOAT. There’s a reason he didn’t work out in the pros and it is because his talent was speed and quickness—and the NFL caught up to him like the best teams in the B1G.
Lowlights cancel out highlights. He has the lowest floor of all those I listed.
You are hilarious. Let’s not do it this way. Name five better players. Until then he,”IS” definitely top 5. Because there’s not one player since 2010 that has had a greater impact on this program.
I love Denard, but he had a rough go against top teams. Maybe some of that is a function of bad teams, but 57.2% completion and 49 TDs to 39 INTs isn't good enough for me to have him at QB. The rushing average took a dive against real defenses, and he (and the team) couldn't make up for it in the passing game. If we're talking strictly college QB production, I'd probably take Henne, Brady, Navarre, Grbac, and Griese in my years of watching Michigan football.
Rob these are great choices. I’ll simply counter with this. Not one of these QB’s had anything less than 1 or 2 five-stars to throw to. Also what strikes me as a fan and also lifetime participant at the Big House for years I have heard lots of reactions inside our beloved stadium. When Denard was there, who else in the stadium on the entire team was as electric??? He couldn’t throw the ball to himself. Those QB’s had, Manningham, Desmond, Streets, Breaston, Avant, and oh yeah a receiver by the name of Braylon Edwards. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Denard carried this program into its present success and has done it with class. That Big House without Denard Robinson on that team would have been giving away more than cokes for the four years he was here. I love all the QB’s that you mentioned but in all truthfulness you mentioned some of the best,”teams” to ever be assembled in Schembechler Hall, that played along with the ones you chose!!!
GO BLUE
I will counter this—who cares about stars when your QB throws passes to the opposite team with none of his own guys in sight? Denard arguably had fewer weapons but he also was wildly inaccurate and threw the wrong read way too often. It’s a fact. He had to use his feet to rescue his own mistakes quite often.
I am not going to keep commenting on Denard because my intent is not to tear him down. Simply, he made a lot of bad, very bad throws that cost the team a loss or caused them to have to come from behind to win games. He was frustratingly inconsistent within games and game to game in conference.
Aidan Hutchinson would be a player since 2010.
I'll take Harbaugh, Grbac, Brady, Henson and Henne over Denard in todays CFB.
Now, if we're taking 1970s or 80s CFB where the wishbone and option football was still a thing, Denard may be in the top 5.
Aiden Hutchinson
and not his dad Steve Hutchinson!
"Name five better players."
Woodson
Howard
Harmon
Heston
Anthony Carter
Woodson, Howard, Wheatley, Hutchinson, Edwards
Which Hutchinson? That was rhetorical....
Steve was a four-year All B1G player. Two year All American. Consensus All American as a Senior. Hard to do much better than that.
Yup, he's in the discussion. That's not something that you get to decide. We're discussin' it right here. And it's a great discussion to have.
April 14th, 2022 at 10:46 AM ^
Alright, get ready for the pedantic MGoBlog take . . . discussing whether someone should be in the discussion is actually different than "the discussion". Now, if the OP was something along the lines of "Who are the U of M football GOATS?" and Denard's name was suggested - even by a small minority - your point would apply.
April 14th, 2022 at 12:35 PM ^
You seem unimpressed that Denard was included in the discussion in a board post about Denard.
Hey I agree with you but I still think he's on the leaderboard. That highlight tape was pretty awesome but it only really showed all of the great plays....of which there were many. I'm not sure there is another player in the last 25 years that had as many explosive plays as Denard.
That said and what the highlight tape does'nt show is all of the 3 and outs and negative yard to no gain plays of which there were many. Denard was hard to not like...the smile was infectious. Glad he is back on the staff.
Go Blue