U of M Football GOAT: Denard should be in the discussion
Great article with a lot of stats backing up the idea that he is or should be mentioned among the GOATs of Michigan football. We all know TB is the GOAT in the NFL, but not necessarily the greatest at Michigan. There is a video of his highlights to go along with it. Great to watch. He was the bright spot in a dark time. If only we could have fielded a good defense. He was a generational talent. Enjoy and allow the debate to begin.
April 14th, 2022 at 12:47 PM ^
That 2011 game against Notre Dame -- I was there -- was amazing, but .... he played pretty badly until the 4th quarter, honestly. People forget how painful our offense was for much of that game. Full credit for making the plays when he needed to, I guess, but ... we shouldn't talk about it like the entire game was an advertisement for his skills. It wasn't.
April 14th, 2022 at 11:03 AM ^
I've watched Michigan football for a solid 25 years. In that time, if i ranked players, its hard for me to put Denard ahead of:
* Woodson
* Griese
* Hutchinson
To me - on par with:
* Haskins
* Hart
* Bush
April 14th, 2022 at 11:13 AM ^
What a list.
April 14th, 2022 at 11:04 AM ^
He was awesome, but the teams played too many non-meaningful games for any of them during that time to be considered GOATS -- it can't just be stats.
It can just be stats. He couldn't control who his supporting cast was. No one would argue a minor role player that won a natty or several big ten championships is the GOAT bc they played in meaningful games. Stats are a better measure of pure individual talent.
April 14th, 2022 at 11:44 AM ^
Denard has the stats to be considered. The team's winning record is an issue. How much of a difference does it make? Michigan certainly would have lost many more games without Denard as QB1. Another issue is Denard did not win the Heisman.
IMO, he is Top 5. Woodson, D-Howard would also rank within the list.
April 14th, 2022 at 11:51 AM ^
Great player for the university, but no where near the GOAT conversation when it comes to Michigan football.
April 14th, 2022 at 12:34 PM ^
LOVE Denard. He is one of the greatest Michigan football players of all time.
But no, he's not the GOAT, and he's not particularly close. Probably top 50. Definitely top 100.
But I don't think he's even in the top 25. Hutchinson, for example, is ahead of shoelace. As far as QBs in my lifetime, Henne, Grbac, Harbaugh, and Griese all rank ahead of Denard. Probably Navarre, too.
Now, if you want to rank the most exciting QBs in Michigan history, he may be at the top.
If you want to rank the best players during tough times, he's definitely in the GOAT conversation.
But he did not accomplish the things Michigan football measures itself by.
Injury, coaching, and other circumstances may have limited his ability to do that, but we'll just never know what he could have been on a team like last year's.
The career leader in total yards and touchdowns isn't in the top 50?! Give me a break.
I LOVE Denard. But being the best player on some bad teams does not mean you eclipse great players on great teams.
By your statistical measures, Lew Nichols III was the best RB in CFB last year. I'm sure most people have no idea who he is. Bailey Zappe and Brennan Armstrong had the most passing yards. Why weren't they in the Heisman conversation?
Yards and TDs don't make greatness.
Denard played in an era (and for a coach) when QBs could rack-up stats more than any other players in the history of the game. He was a great runner and never more than a serviceable passer.
His smile, speed, and heart are legendary. But he never won a conference championship. He only beat OSU in their broken year, and barely that. Lost to MSU 2/3 years as a starter. Did nothing in the Sugar Bowl win. Outside of two Notre Dame match-ups, Denard did massive damage to bad teams and did very little against good ones.
He is the best running QB in Michigan history.
He is one of my favorite players in Michigan history.
But he is very, very far from being the GOAT. He would not even be a starter on this year's team.
I don't think he's the GOAT, but he's easily in the 10 all time best players at Michigan. He still played better competition than bailey zappe or lew Nichols in the MAC. That's why they werent Heisman candidates. Put them on any big ten team with those stats and they would have been. Denard is the only player in NCAA history to rush and pass for over 1,500 yards in a season. He rushed for over 1000 yards 3 seasons in a row and has the most touchdowns in Michigan history. There's just no fucking way he could be outside the top 50.
And I guess you think Brian Griese is the best player then since winning big games is all that matters. Or maybe John Navarre.
Thanks, MeanJoe. That was a pretty strange comment.
He also holds the following NCAA records:
- Only 1500 yd pass and 1500 yd rushing season
- Most career rushing yds by a QB
And Big 10 records:
- Most rushing yards by a QB
- Total offense in a single season
Not worthy of the top 50? I guess I'd like to see the list of 50 people above him..
April 14th, 2022 at 12:39 PM ^
OP said mentioned among the greats of all time, not saying he has to be number 1. My vote like many others is Woodson, but I agree denard was a bright spot in dark times, and even if his stats were not great against good teams, imagine what his back ups stats would have looked like… stuff like this is for fan service, and I think it would be good for Michigan to toss old denard clips on the screens when they chop up old M highlights.
Any generic player on a good team that won big games apparently
April 14th, 2022 at 12:49 PM ^
Question for WolverineHistorian et al: is Jim Harbaugh the only person to defeat the Buckeyes as both player and head coach? If so, that makes him my GOAT.
Bump Elliott, Bennie Oosterbaan and Harry Kipke did as well. Gustave Ferbert did not, but it looks like Michigan did not start playing Ohio State until he was coaching. (Meaning he won the first game Michigan played against Ohio State.)
Unless I missed somebody, these guys and Harbaugh are the only former players who've coached at Michigan.
When it comes to Woodson and Denard, no, Denard is not even close to being in the discussion. One was really fun to watch, the other is one of the 10 best players of all time at his position
I only started watching Michigan regularly after Woodson was busy making a case for greatest defensive player of the modern era...in the NFL. In that time, the conversation at QB is basically Henne or Denard, or maybe the Rudockening. They were so different. Both were so good. Both ran offenses that felt maddeningly inconsistent but also just damn excellent. If I was building a team today and had sophomore Henne or sophomore Denard, I really don't know who I'd start.
Personally? Woodson is in the conversation for GOAT defensive player in NFL history, and he won the Heisman and a natty. Hutchinson took over games like I've never seen. O Linemen get no love on these lists, so I'll remember Molk, Lewan, Omameh, and Long so they get their laurels. Before that? You've got the Heisman winners, the pre-Heisman players who won nattys and changed the way the game was played. Recency bias makes me think Hutch. Woodson because of his NFL excellence on top of his college excellence. Older than that I know the names Harmon, Heston, Schultz and Chappuis because of Seth's podcasts. Yea Denard isn't the GOAT but he's in the ballpark.
He was fun to watch for sure, but GOAT? No. Woodson, Harmon, etc
This is kind of a weird discussion. "Denard should be in the GOAT discussion," which presumes injustice that he isn't, which presumes a rationality and organization to a discussion of Michigan football GOATs that... isn't in evidence.
And it's weird, because it forces us to denigrate players who don't deserve to be denigrated. How do I compare Denard to Desmond Howard or Tyrone Wheatley? Do stats alone tell the story? Individual awards? Team achievements?
There's no way Denard is a GOAT over Charles Woodson, for example; no Heisman, no national title, didn't play two ways. But how is this a fair comparison for Denard Robinson? Literally no other player in college football history has done what Woodson did.
Denard is the greatest offensive player in Michigan history. Woodson is the overall GOAT player. Then I'd say Desmond, Harmon, and AC.
Isn't saying that he should be in the discussion for GOAT an admission that he isn't? Like sure, if you are discussing who the goat is you can bring up denards name as an extremely electrifying and memorable player, but he's definitely not the greatest michigan player of all time.
By any objective statistical measure and if you remove "feelings" and "nostalgia", Denard is the best offensive player in Michigan history and it's not that close. Most successful in terms of wins, trophies, awards? Best QB? No. But most dynamic offensive player overall by far.
I love Denard and all the wolverines who wore that legendary uniform. Having said that Woodson is the GOAT by a wide margin IMO.
on a side note Braylon has been controversial at times (although he’s one of my favorite players at UM) but he definitely deserves consideration for top 10 UM player of all time.
Yea, Braylon was game-breaking good at Michigan and def deserves consideration. Top 10 all time is pretty great tho - Let's have the discussion!!
Off the top of my head you've got old timers Chappuis, Benny to Bennie, Heston, Schultz and Harmon - and that's all before the "modern" era of platooning. After that you've got 2 heisman winners, 2 defensive heisman finalists, Brandon Graham - who singlehandedly kept the D from completely falling off a cliff in 2009 - a handful of great QBs and RBs (including Hassan Haskins, who deserves consideration too) - and of course a ton of OL who made it to the NFL for long careers or absolutely mashed in college (i'm going to say Long, Hutchinson, Lewan, Molk, Omameh, Cesar Ruiz, elder Runyan, Stueber). He's definitely one of the top 5 receivers of all time at Michigan - but I think I'd leave him off a top 10 list. If we limit ourselves to 2 old timers, defensive players, QBs and lineman - that'd mean Braylon would have to be a top 2 of the modern RBs/receivers - a tall order when Desmond almost reserved himself a spot by striking a pose. I dunno if I'd put Braylon ahead of A-train, Haskins, Terrell, Carter, Biakabatuka - or even ahead of Gallon and Hemingway.
This is a really fun game tho.
Great analysis, admittedly I tend to rank modern era players over older era players because of the evolution of the sport and the athlete. I take into account nutrition, personal training, speed, Strength, more nuanced schemes. Modern day players have so much more at their disposal that makes them better IMO (not taking anything away from older era players).
One of the most underrated players in UM history is Ty Law who was a lockdown corner and a NFL hall of famer. In terms of top 10 players at UM a guy like Dan Deirdorf can easily be overlooked but should not be, he was sensational.
Another UM great that is not one of the GOAT’s of UM but was a dang good player is Marcus Ray who had a very high IQ as he was the QB in a lot of ways of the secondary and was a hard hitter to boot.
A guy like Brandon Graham was a great UM player that played on some very underwhelming teams because of a lack of talent and coaching but he still was dominant at times and was consistently a beast on the line.
April 14th, 2022 at 11:57 PM ^
You don't know if you'd put Braylon ahead of Gallon and Hemmingway? This isn't knocking Gallon and Hemmingway but Braylon was unanimous first team all-american, Biletnikokk winner and Big Ten MVP in 2004. He's the UM career leader in receptions and yards and 2nd place isn't even really close in either catagory. Braylon had 252 career receptions - 2nd place is Marquise Walker with 176. Edwards had 3541 career receiving yards - 2nd is AC with 3076.
Edwards 97 catches in 2004 are the most ever in a single season at Michigan. His 85 catches in 2003 is the 4th most ever in a season and his 67 catches in 2002 is tied for 10th most in season. Terrell is the only other player to be listed 2x in the Top 10 for most receptions in a single season.
braylon is way behind AC, desmond howard, and ron kramer. unless you want to put four receivers in the top ten, he ain’t in there.
Taking I'm in my 50's in context I cannot comment about era adjustments before that, IMO Ricky Leach with Woodson a close second. There are a lot of players in the conversation which is what make Michigan Football so special.
I've always been torn with Denard because of my disgust of the Rich Rod era. He by far was the most electric I've ever watched and loved every minute he touched the ball, it was like holding your breath on a Barry Sanders hand-off.
It's a great conversation with a lot of plausible answers.
Thanks, I immediately thought of Rick Leach when I read the title. Personally, Leach would be 3 on my list behind Woodson and Desmond. I loved watching Denard play and he was electric. I took my son to South Bend to watch the ND Mante Tao fake girlfriend game and vividly remember Denard throwing 4 straight passes interceptions in a very winnable game. He was just too erratic as a passer to call him the GOAT.
Denard was a joy to watch, on and off the field.
As far as all-time GOAT, you have to look at Tom Harmon...dude got a standing ovation by OSU fans at Columbus in his final game when he left the field, he was so good.
My 2 cents:
Denard was a blast, and absolutely one of the most exciting athletes ever at Michigan - but he wasn't among the very best IMO.
My Michigan memories go back to '69 OSU game. In all that time, there's no doubt who was the very greatest Michigan player - Chuck Woodson.
1. Woodson
2. AC
3. Desmond
Other best skill positions: Woolfolk, Harbaugh, Leach, Braylon, Wheatley
Best Non-skill positions: Woodson, Long, both Hutches, Tripp Welborne, Ron Simpkins, Dave Brown, Dierdorf, Reggie Mckenzie, Mark Donahue, LaMarr Woodley, Curtis Greer
I'd put Denard in the group below those guys along with skill players like Tim B, Hart, Billy Taylor, D Franklin, Henne, Grbac and a whole bunch of great non-skill position guys.
That still puts him in pretty damn good company. His highlights match anyone, but he wasn't a consistent passer, was small and injury prone, and had the misfortune of playing with lesser talent around him.
One other thing - to an extent, Denard's stats in 2010 were inflated by RR's scheme - absurdly wide-open receivers and a QB-focused rushing attack absolutely perfect for Denard. In 2011 a lot of his rushing yards were "handed" to Fitz.
Fun topic - fun to speculate.
stop saying GOAT, about anyone. i’m begging all of you.
Goat goat goat goat goat goat…sorry. I’m childish.
No love for Tate Forcier? Cmon now - flawed analysis!
April 14th, 2022 at 11:40 PM ^
Denard was prime Rich Rod exemplified. I know his last two seasons were post RR, but no other Michigan coach would have even recruited him as a QB in modern times.
He was a really good athlete with elite elusiveness and quickness who could dominate lower level competition in a system implemented for him, but he wasn’t effective when the competition level was matched let alone exceeded and his lack of being a true QB really showed during those times.
There’s a reason why he was only invited to the NFL combine as a WR. There’s a reason why he was a 5th rd draft pick.
Pat White did the same exact thing for Rich Rod just prior to coming to Michigan. I think you could even make a case that Pat White was even better than Denard.
Michigan, meanwhile, has had multiple players who were elite and among the top 1 or 2 at their respective position nationwide. Denard was never that and no highlight reel film changes that.
I hate piling on him because he seems like a really good kid who loves the school, but are we really talking about him as the GOAT from Michigan? I mean, really?
As my profile pic suggests, Denard is one of my favorite players ever at Michigan. I just don't how you compare him to Woodson, Hutchinson or other guys who played different positions at different times etc.
The argument for Denard was that is that he enjoyed incredible success on teams that weren't that great. The argument against is that his passing was inconsistent (though he had some good games in the air) and it seemed like a couple of times a year teams would just shut him down (notably this happened against MSU).
Anthony Carter. Only three-time All American other than Oosterbaan, and in the top ten of Heisman voting 3 times. G.O.A.T.-type shit...