U of M Football GOAT: Denard should be in the discussion
Great article with a lot of stats backing up the idea that he is or should be mentioned among the GOATs of Michigan football. We all know TB is the GOAT in the NFL, but not necessarily the greatest at Michigan. There is a video of his highlights to go along with it. Great to watch. He was the bright spot in a dark time. If only we could have fielded a good defense. He was a generational talent. Enjoy and allow the debate to begin.
April 14th, 2022 at 12:32 AM ^
Part of the love for Denard isn’t stats but the vibes he brought. Electric, captivating, and as you said a bright star during dark times. Radiating smile and positivity through it all.
Denard is my favorite player in the time I’ve watched M football since 2005/2006. Hassan Haskins and Mike Hart are the only others who come close.
April 14th, 2022 at 12:40 AM ^
Ruby is the best all time notre dame player. By a Los Angelos mile.
edit:
Rudy? That movie of the Conway salesman. You know the one.
I am certain this is snark, but i can't quite decipher it.
ruby?
forget it, he's rolling.
Ruby, don't take your love to town, you offsides motherfucker.
As suggested here by RedRum, I say whenever a Michigan fan refers to Rudy, we always intentionally get the name slightly wrong. Ruby, Rummy, Rutee, Rufee, you name it, we say it. And it DRIVES THOSE IRISH FANS NUTS!
April 14th, 2022 at 11:09 PM ^
Thank you Swayse and Redroom for the explanations.
Since it is a Catholic school, allow me to reply in confession. Since Michigan was a legacy school for me, and my dad and I watched/listened to all games together, during my religious /rebellious younger years, i used to sport an ND hat to spite my father. I grew out of that phase and only applied to Michigan and never looked back.
April 14th, 2022 at 10:39 AM ^
Ruby and Brokeback were 2 of a kind.
April 14th, 2022 at 12:44 AM ^
I don't know if I'd go that far, unless you count intangibles, which, why not? His combination of ability and personality saved this program while he was here.
If we are just using on field impact (and starting from 2006, the year I started at Michigan), Long and Hutchinson are the guys who stand out to me, with Long getting the slight edge because of the length of his career. I never saw that man make a mistake
I don't know if he is the GOAT but he is in the discussion. Looking at all the records he set from the article definitely shows he was special. The sad thing is if a DR #2 came along and signed to Michigan he would be put on defense with the current regime.
I’m not sure where I put Denard in the pantheon, but let’s not forget he really only had two full seasons as starting qb. As a sophomore in RichRod’s offense, he set all kinds of records. As a junior suffering in the Hoke/Borges offense, he led the team to an 11-2 record, including a win over OSU.
I love this post so much.
My Undergrad at Michigan was 2007-2011. Without Denard for two years it would've easily been the most disastrous 4 years of Michigan football of all time.
Not only did Denard put the team on his back, he high fived students on his way to class in the diag, showed up to other sports games, always had a smile on his face despite certain people in the fan base demanding more, and shattered every offensive record imaginable.
I am firmly on the side of, "what if he had a consistently reliable defense." Those who are minimalizing his accomplishments are trash.
His games against ND and his final OSU game belong in the friggin Smithsonian.
and shattered every offensive RUSHING record imaginable.
FIFY.
That’s not fair, he had the interceptions record for a while too
I seem to remember Denard having 6 interceptions in one game. a couple might have been fumbles lost.
Found it. 2012 vs Notre Dame. 13-6 loss. Michigan ended the first half with FIVE!!! straight interceptions (one a Denard hail mary, the other a Vincent Smith half back pass). Denard started the second half by fumbling the ball.
I loved Denard, but the great majority of his highlight-reel plays -- not all, but most -- came against weaker teams in the first half of the season, or involve "throw it up, let your receivers make a play" passes. Obviously, to some extent that's always true with quarterbacks, but with him it was more significant than most, because once the skill of the defenses improved and he was forced, more or less, to focus on his passing game, the weaknesses in that game became apparent.
This is going to sound like I'm negging him, and I swear I'm not. As others have noted, he was one of the very few genuinely bright spots in a down period. But I personally would take -- just in my lifetime -- Butch Woolfolk, Anthony Carter, Ty Wheatley, Tom Brady, Charles Woodson, Desmond Howard, and even Jim Harbaugh himself, over Denard.
Different strokes for different folks, obviously, and I'm damned glad Denard was here -- not only because he helped us win games when that was a challenge, but because he was fun in a way nobody else was. But the GOAT? At this school? Nah.
Recency bias is strong in this thread. I love Denard and he is certainly the best player at UM since 2010 but there are many other players I’d put as GOAT. Tom Harmon and Charles Woodson for instance would be at the start of such a conversation.
Super disappointed I had to come this far down to see Harmon. The dude got a standing ovation from fans at an away game at Ohio State. I know that it's hard to compare football across eras, but he was on a whole different plateau than so many players that have played here.
He ran, passed, blocked, kicked, punted, returned punts and kickoffs, and played defense. Played the entire 60 minutes eight games in his career. Led the nation in scoring in 1939 and 1940. Heisman winner, Maxwell Award winner, two-time All American, three-time All Big Ten, and Associated Press Athlete of the Year in 1940. Never lost to Ohio State or Michigan State. Even hosted a 15-minute program on the university radio station in his junior and senior years.
other than that he was a complete bum....
Thank you. Denard was a bright light during dark times. So post-Lloyd, definitely one of the most exciting players we have had. But forget GOAT, he isn’t even in the discussion for best Michigan QB.
April 14th, 2022 at 11:39 AM ^
Best player since 2010? Aidan Hutchinson might disagree.
How do you even compare the two? What criteria do you use? They were both the most dominant players on their side of the ball. I wouldn't say one was better than the other.
I love Denard too but this is silly.
Harmon, Woodson, Howard, AC, Wheatley, Heston, Harbaugh, Oosterbaan, Chappius, Leach,Edwards, Hutchinson, Messner/Hammerstein, Brady…he isn’t greater than any of these guys.
Brady went 20-5 at UM with wins over ND, PSU, OSU, and Bama in a single year. He also helmed a Big Ten championship team and went 2-0 in bowls. People underrate his accomplishments here.
Not sure if UM has a GOAT. So many great players over the decades.
That's the benefit of having a great heritage in football: so many great players.
As for GOAT, that has more to do with listicles & the fun of arguing than life, with its innately complicating circumstances.
How would Brady have done with Denard's teams: OL—other offensive weapons—defense—special teams? Or Denard with Brady's?
Brady wouldn’t have come to Michigan during Denard’s teams…so kind of a pointless conversation. How would Denard have done on Brady’s teams?…well he wouldn’t have been recruited and if he did, he would be returning kicks or playing ninja slot wide receiver.
This list reads as an all time greats list. Let’s look at it like this. If you’d hand these names to a class of let’s say 2019-2022 as a survey and say you could add any name up till now. Which of these names that you’ve added makes top five, in front of Denard? No hate involved, I love Michigan.
To people in the class of 2019-2022 Denard is an old man!
That’s fine I can’t argue that. So let’s see what about, Hammerstein? I simply stated that if you put all of those names down and added the other names, who do you think makes the top five. It’s just a question, and or thought.
You could go back further, too. Willie Heston, Neil Snow, Germany Schultz, Bennie Friedman, and the Wistert brothers, to name some old-timey greats. While I loved Denard, if you had AC, Howard, Braylon, Oosterbaan, and Mario to throw to, you wouldn’t put Shoelaces under center.
I love Denard but I gotta admit that I held my breath every time he dropped back to pass.
Easily the most prolific runner at his position. He did some Amazing things and was the lone bright spot in the darkest time of Michigan football. GOAT is a stretch though.
n 2011, Robinson helped engineer Michigan's last win against the Buckeyes - finishing the game going 14-17 through the air for 167 yards and three touchdowns.
Who wrote this article? A Buckeye?
Denard brought joy, his highlights are great fun to watch, and it's wonderful he's back at Michigan.
I love Denard so much and he makes a lot of my all-____ teams even when I don't create a category just to include him. But "all time" at Michigan means you have to decide how you're going to rate today's better athletes against guys who played deep in the past but might have been leagues better than their competition.
An all-time best Michigan QB list also has to take into account the changing role of the position. For Yost's early years it was a little guy who could call the plays--you're grading him against offensive coordinators as much as players. After the forward pass was legalized, his stars at QB were equal parts Denard Robinson and Charles Woodson--Friedman and Newman were the best passers of their times but they were even better defensive backs and punt returners.
For Crisler do you call the "quarterback" the quarterback, or the halfbacks, because until you were allowed to pass from the pocket the fullbacks were taking the snaps, and they and the halfbacks like Tom Harmon and Bob Chappuis were doing most of the passing. Quarterbacks were more like Erick All than Cade McNamara. And what do you do with Rick Leach, the great option quarterback whose stats won't show how well he kept Michigan's offense on schedule with perfect reads, and whose passing stats are underrated because he played right before modern passing schemes became en vogue.
So I think you have to do it by era. In which case...
EARLY YEARS (1879-1900)
James Baird. It's not close--James was so good they let his brother hang around and manage the team until before the board of control realized it they had a bona fide athletic director on their hands.
EARLY YOST (1901-1920)
Boss Weeks. He was not Yost's first pick (Chicago won a bidding war for Walter Eckersall) but Weeks was boss at running the hurry-up offense and knew right when to unleash a toss outside to Willie Heston.
LATE YOST & KIPKE (1921-1937)
Benny Friedman over Harry Newman but you're talking about two guys who would have won the Heisman (Newman won its forerunner). They are probably #1 and #2 in regards to how much they dominated their eras.
CRISLER AND OOSTERBAAN (1938-1958)
Pete Elliott over Howard Yerges. The QB in the single-wing was a playcaller and blocker. Yerges was a wartime transfer from OSU who called all the plays for the Mad Magicians. Elliott, was just as good at that, and a better athlete in his own right. Elliott was named All-American and Yerges wasn't, so that's the slim difference, but there's an argument either way. Elliott also got his brother Chalmers (Bump) to transfer from Purdue.
BUMP AND BO (1959-1989)
Rick Leach and it's not close, with all due respect to Dennis Franklin, and All-American Bob Timberlake. It's criminal that Leach isn't in the CFB Hall of Fame. He's probably #3 on the all-time list at Michigan.
MOELLER TO TODAY (1990-Present)
Denard Robinson over Chad Henne but it's a little closer than you think. Robinson lit up a dark era; Henne was a machine. They're so unlike each other and played for such different teams that it's hard to remember they're both solidly Millennials, with Denard starting his career just 2 seasons after Henne's ended. Robinson was such an underrated passer--people still pretend like the guy couldn't throw lasers, and his dead-on shots are left out of the highlight reels. Do you not remember the drive to beat Notre Dame? Finding Odoms between the Ohio State zone? Dude!!!
I'd put Elvis Grbac over Henne. Nobody ever talks about him but he had two great seasons in the early 90s.
I would agree. Grbac also won more big games than Henne.
Grbac was extraordinarily efficient. His rankings nationally in AY/A and passer rating:
- 1990: 18th in AY/A, 13th in rating
- 1991: 4th in AY/A, 2nd in rating
- 1992: 13th in AY/A, 1st in rating
For reference, no Michigan QB has been top 13 in rating since Todd Collins in 1994
Elvis completing bombs to Derrick Alexender was my first taste of Michigan football. If there was a ot/tiebreaker in 1992, they might have another natty.
April 14th, 2022 at 10:54 AM ^
He was also named People's Sexiest Athlete in 1998. Call me when Henne has that on his resume
Save it for the front page, Seth.
I'm going to go out on a limb and put Cade over Denard, if not now, definitely by the end of his tenure here.
Harbaugh doesn't get a mention for the Bump/Bo era?
April 14th, 2022 at 10:48 AM ^
Harbaugh was very good in 1985 and 1986 but other QBs were slinging it--I tried to judge these guys by how much they affected their times. Also that's Harbaugh's 4th and 5th years at Michigan, though there's an argument he was very good as a RS sophomore before his arm injury; Leach started for four years.
April 14th, 2022 at 11:19 AM ^
Oof I really disagree. Harbaugh was second in the country in passer rating in 1985 and 1986. And he finished 3rd for the Heisman in 86 and was named Big Ten Player of the Year. If you like volume, he finished 8th in the country in passing yards in 86 to boot. And Michigan finished in the Top 10 both of those years if you want team success. I'm not sure there is any Michigan QB who has had better individual seasons in the modern conception of what a quarterback is.
April 14th, 2022 at 12:39 PM ^
Seth made a good call re Leach -- I was going to mention him as well, but I knew I'd get shouted down. He really wasn't a very good passer, and his stats suffer both from playing at the time he did, and under 1970s'-Bo, but ... every kid who grew up in Michigan in the 1970s worshipped him. He was a winner, through-and-through, a competitor, a superior athlete, who ran the option (with the assistance of Rob Lytle and Gordon Bell, among others) to perfection. And he totally rebalanced the scales against OSU after the painful results under Dennis Franklin.
On the other hand, yeah, I think Seth may be undervaluing Harbaugh. His broken arm early in the 1984 season absolutely destroyed that team -- you want to see what can happen to a good team that loses its stud QB, you'll never find a better example than that -- but his 1985 and 1986 teams were awesome stuff, with the best season-ending ranking we've had (except 1987, obv.) in the past 70+ years, and an all-time highlight in the 1985 OSU game.
Like Leach, he was a winner, and could get you whatever you needed, whenever you needed it.
If Seth says he belongs in the discussion, I'm buying it.
It is interesting that we had 2 great QBs to start the Big Ten drought and ended it with sometimes cyaned game manager Cade Macnamara. Also, Trent Dilfer and Joe Flacco are Super Bowl winning QBs. And Eli has as many Super Bowl rings as Peyton. Even in the era of passing outweighing rushing, football remains a consummate team game.
I love this take. And with that being said, my final take. Denard had to out perform a lot of teams. Due to the fact that his coach and team were not in unison, and that made for a rough time in his playing days and era.