Can't stand Trump and won't vote for him.
But this morning Joe Biden made an ambiguous "we should listen to the science" statement when asked about whether primaries should be held this Tuesday.
"The Science" that he's alluding to has been clear that this is dangerous and will lead to further spread and people dying.
Biden is no leader either.
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Joe Biden and Barack Obama's administration didn't even bother to re-stock the mask supply after a pandemic.
His reaction to banning travel from the country of origin was to cry out with accusations of racism (as was his whole fucking party's reaction).
Our governor allowed a massive event - the primary - to go on despite ample evidence from past pandemics that large events like that are what spread such diseases.
The DNC asked states not to cancel their primaries:
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/488111-dnc-calls-on-states-not-to-postpone-primaries
There are so many articles and clips from left-leaning sources not taking this seriously well into March that are all over social media. Its a joke to pretend that they were on top of things or would have handled anything any better.
I've already posted on people like Fauci not taking this seriously in January and don't even get me started on WHO, but just in case you missed it, here's a couple of nice rundowns:
https://twitter.com/zooko/status/1243944703042539521
https://mobile.twitter.com/WHO/status/1234871709091667969
On top of this: Look at the rest of the fucking world. Does it look like France, Italy, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Germany, etc. are doing any better? I mean, go look at Germany's timeline and reaction toward this as they are held up as the gold standard for a non-Asian developed country:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Germany#1%E2%80%937_March
All the same shit.
The reality of this is really simple: Get the fuck over the 2016 election and understand that the main cause of what we are in right now is twofold:
1. China lied about their outbreak for months and that more than anything caused a delayed reaction from just about everyone else.
2. We gave away our manufacturing base over the last 50 years so people could enjoy cheap shit, while decimating our working class and now we can't even produce the supplies necessary to deal with the problem (which I bet like 90% of the board you've ignored and voted for over and over again while loving the fact that your TV gets bigger and cheaper at the same time).
You keep making the same bad points.
1. The Obama administration used N95 masks for federal responses to: H1N1, Swine Flu, Ebola, and at least 4 different natural disasters, and did prioritize the purchase of medicines related to those outbreaks over replenishing the mask pile. You make choices with your budget. Trump had since January 2017 to replenish without an intervening outbreak. How did that go?
2. Fauci specifically said the following in the exact same January 21 clip you keep parroting from right wing website talking points:
Obviously you need to take it seriously and do the kinds of things the CDC and Department of Homeland Security are doing...
He was just saying given the lack of immediate threat there was no point in the average American getting anxious at that point.
3. DNC asked not to cancel 3 weeks ago and that guidance has changed. A primary is not the same as a rally; you can stretch out lines to put 6 feet between every single person if you have to but I agree it's not ideal. So why is the Democratic governor doing everything he can to stop the Wisconsin primary but it's getting rammed through by the Republican legislature despite 60% of WI municipalities reporting shortages of poll workers (LINK)? Because there is a State Supreme Court seat at stake and they hope a lower turnout will benefit their guy.
4. We've been over the WHO at the beginning of January before. They correctly stated they didn't have any hard evidence yet of person-to-person spread. Only an utter idiot would interpret that as meaning "person-to-person transmission is impossible." They just couldn't prove it at the time.
5. Germany's response has been demonstrably better than peer countries. Why? Potentially several reasons: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/world/europe/germany-coronavirus-death-rate.html
@Hatter - I usually agree with but you are 100% wrong here. The mayor NYC has MUCH more power than the POTUS when it comes to controlling the local response to Covid 19. I'm from NY and have family there and am furious he was encouraging large gatherings when this mess was well known.
4,300,000 people ride the subway everyday - de Blasio could have shut it down with a snap of his fingers. Don't let your hatred of Trump get in the way of legitimate disdain for the other asshats too.
Many, many people on both sides deserve blame.
Fuck that both sides crap.
Fox News, Trump and Republicans have consistently blamed Democrats and the mainstream media for overhyping the dangers of Covid-19. Yes, both sides underestimated the danger early. Trump's public health emergency only dealt with people arriving from China. Don't make it out to be more than it was.
Overall Democrats have been pushing much harder for serious action. We can still see it at the state level when it comes to issuing stay at home orders. Every holdout governor is a Republican and so were all who finally issued those orders in the last few days.
There are valid reasons for people to hate both parties, but they haven't been the same on this issue, not by a long shot.
Aye men brother
I live in Illinois, Pritzker is complaining about the government not stock pilling more ventilators in February when his own public health experts said no one expected the outbreak at that time. Meanwhile he has said he will be raising taxes in July. Both sides suck.
If you think cutting off China travel was an insignificant decision then look at the results Italy has experienced with a 12% fatality rate because they didn’t take similar action sooner. It was not a popular decision, at all. Give credit where it is due.
For the first time I ever remember, the "pox on both houses" idiom is literally true, but not figuratively true. False equivalence to suggest both sides treated this with the same level of alarm.
Donald Trump had significantly more resources at his disposal to understand the scope of this problem than just about anyone in the world. Similarly he had more resources and options to address the problem. He ignored multiple organizations within the government including both intelligence agencies and health agencies.
Every COVID-19 post should contain the following items within it:
A "just the flu" thread
A "millions will die in America, every place on earth is permanently x weeks away from Italy" thread
A thread about whose to blame that really just comes down to the person's feelings on the 2016 presidential election.
Edit:
Also, a thread of debate on the CFR/IFR
Hey, I am totally down with COVID-19 being a bad flu. However, people really need to keep in mind what a bad flu *really* means.
The Spanish Flu is conservatively estimated to have killed off 0.5% of the US population. That isn’t the mortality rate, as some people didn’t catch it--thanks to social distancing measures like they used heavily in St. Louis (link). Today, the death of 0.5% of the US population would be roughly 1.65 million dead people.
Like the current coronavirus we did not have a vaccine during the Spanish Flu. Fatality rates are estimated (athough my info is probably out of date, actually) to be in the 1-2% range for COVID-19, which if everyone in the US gets it would result in deaths of 3.3 to 6.6 million people.
I will add when the healthcare system gets overwhelmed, more people will die. That includes both people who would have survived COVID-19 with treatment (as the hospitalization rate is much greater than the fatality rate) and people with other health issues who can’t get the care they need.
Wow, is it ok to use the phrase "Spanish" flu???
That's the term used historically; there is good case that it first came out of Kansas.
Also a thread with someone arguing that the president of the united states with the full resources that entails and warnings from multiple people inside and outside the federal government since January somehow has no unique responsibility to be on top of an issue that could have such far reaching ramifications our country thread (unless that one is just lazily bundled under the “A thread about whose to blame that really just comes down to the person's feelings on the 2016 presidential election. ‘
I didn’t realize the death rate was that much higher for COVID. And it’s just getting started. Scary stuff. Thanks for sharing
I’m coming over and locking you in your house.
I'm seeing 9132 deaths from Corona virus, and it's still April 5. Check back with us next Sunday with your stats.
What you are showing is that the mortality rate of the corona virus is 2.5% versus the flu <0.1%.
It’s still growing, asshole.
His asshole is still growing? THAT’S a mental image.
The mere hint of a wisp of a possible inference of positive news can only come from the deepest heretical pit of hades...
Quite an echo chamber we have here, no? And a lot of people absolutely certain about what is happening and why.
There is good news (Italy's social distancing appears to be paying off / some drug trials show promise) and then there is wishful thinking ("It won't be as bad as the flu" / "The death count is an overestimate").
The former is welcomed. The latter is not helpful, even counterproductive. For social distancing to work, people need to buy in. Having people continually minimize the problem by throwing red herrings into every discussion is very unhelpful.
Then you must love the fact that governments are reluctant to publish numbers that don’t appear to justify their extreme tactics. After all, like you say, we have to get everyone to “buy in,” even those who are going to suffer great financial peril, and we might not get the buy in if people knew the full truth. It sounds like you believe that nation like China have the right idea when it comes to dissemination of information.
From Johns-Hopkins:
COVID-19: Approximately 65,711 deaths reported worldwide; 8,503 deaths in the U.S., as of Apr. 5, 2020.*
Flu: 291,000 to 646,000 deaths worldwide; 12,000 to 61,000 deaths in the U.S. per year.
Keep in mind that the estimated number of deaths for the US is 100,000-200,000 for COVID-19 based on continued/increased social distancing. Without the measures taken, it would have been (estimated) 1-2 million. We'll see how it plays out. Hoping for the "under".
I'm sure this information is wasted as you're either just trying to stir shit up or a complete idiot. But I offer it in the event you really are just ignorant...
If you want scientific, the numbers are simply wrong. All estimates are just that, and are likely way off.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32133832. This is a scientific study that shows the testing results of the virus to have a false positive rate at potentially 80%. If you are a believer in this scientific studies in general, and this one specifically, the logical conclusion is that we have no idea how many are infected. Take all aggregate infection data with a grain of salt.
And here’s another one: https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-17319/v1. This study’s conclusion is that “single negative result of the test, particularly if it is based on an upper respiratory tract specimen, in highly suspected cases, does not exclude COVID-19.” So we have a test that gives both false positives and false negatives. Yes, this is the same test that is currently being used in many places - not most of the US anymore, but this was as of about 3 weeks ago.
I wouldn't link to a withdrawn article to make your point. A scientific publication designated "withdrawn" means either the authors or the publishers no longer stand behind the findings because of a problem in the experiment or analysis. It is the science equivalent of "womp, womp."
All tests results need confirmation, especially if they contradict the physician's observed dx.
The best part of this whole situation is people getting absolutley DUNKED on in these threads. Kind of like when mgrowold got dunked on in that Ace thread a couple months ago.
So you're just gonna ignore the fact that health officials are predicting between 2x and 4x as many deaths as the flu?
I'm seeing plenty of health "officials" who disagree with other "officials".
Scientists, nurses, doctors, biologists all echoing the same thoughts, that this isnt what were being told it is.
Everyone I know who works in a hospital setting is scared shitless of this. But I'm sure you've got awesome inside info to set them at ease.
Everyone I know who works in a hospital setting (including NYC) is saying they have open beds and ventilators....so, I'm not sure what to think.
Could you cite some of these people? And could you explain what is happening in New York and what happened in Italy if coronavirus is not pretty serious. Maybe you disagree, but anything that overwhelms the hospital system in multiple different cities seems quite serious to me.
this motherfucker can't site SHIT and he knows it.
Please confirm the "information" you're spewing, and only then forward it to Spectrum Hospital in Greenville MI (and everywhere, for that matter) so that the minds of 3 loved ones who work there on the front lines can be put at ease over the threat they're dealing with daily.
And here, the safe bet is that you do not have the knowledge base to understand what anyone who knows what they are talking about is actually saying.
Ignoring is what they do best.
Fuck you.
So many idiots on this blog. That goes for both sides of this argument.
Both sides of what argument?! If you mean the severity of this, as the argument, then the side with people taking this seriously and trying to encourage distancing to slow this thing actually contains no idiots.
And if there hadn't been a concerted effort by the people and governments of the world to control this thing, there would've been millions of deaths from coronavirus.
This is the worst thing I've seen on this board since the redesign.
It is fascinating that merely posting 'facts' (data) about the flu vs. COVID-19 (albeit very rough estimates, in both cases), with no commentary, draws such fierce blowback.
And that illustrates what is missing from much of the 'news' and discussion. Perspective. Proportion. Acknowledgement of trade-offs. And the ability to have a different than mainstream interpretation of the seriousness of the current situation, or suggest alternative courses of action, without having your character, motives and intelligence attacked.
During flu season, society functions as normal.
During this outbreak, our economy has been shut down and we've been ordered to stay in our homes.
Do you see why the comparison might be flawed?
The problem is that posting facts that show an annual flu season against a disease that is currently killing over 1000 people in the US every day and is overwhelming multiple hospitals you aren’t providing a particularly useful perspective. If you could find a comparison between for instance the worst week of the flu season in say the last 10 or 20 years and how it for instance compared to the last week of covid impacts that might be more compelling.
Let's say 75,000 flu deaths per year in the USA primarily occur in the 6 mo time frame from mid Oct to mid April so thats 75,000/180=417 deaths per day. IN THE WHOLE USA. Can't imagine it being much worse than double that rate in the peak, but maybe' it's 1000?
We are at over 1000deaths/day in the US. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
But you know what the bigger issue is? most of these deaths are hitting in NYC, Cal, Det, Boston. These places are getting hammered right now.
I'm 100% sure you meant "bigger"...
Check back with us in a few months or a year. It's still too early to know the final score. Maybe you can think of it as the first few minutes of a football game. And we're off to a horrible start! ER's are being overwhelmed by Covid patients and ICU's are overflowing. We lost over 1300 lives yesterday! That doesn't happen with the flu! If we do the right things, we might be able to limit the damage. And even then, it may only be limited due to drastic action. It is unfortunate we didn't take certain actions sooner - like South Korea. There, they might fare better than our typical flu season, believe it or not.