Roman Wilson TD review: How is there any doubt among the media?
So listening to Klatt this morning, who I think (normally) is the best in the game, he talks about the Roman Wilson TD maybe not being a TD. Other talking heads keep acting as if it was a questionable TD.
Obviously, I'm a homer, but I simply don't understand how this isn't clearly a TD under any interpretation of the rules, unless I'm totally missing something.
- Wilson catches the ball
- Wilson secures the ball
- Wilson crosses the line
- Wilson knee hits the ground several feet in to the endzone, still has the ball
- After Wilson hits the ground, the ball is stripped from him halfway in to the endzone
Once Wilson crossed the line, that's a TD. Even during the telecast, one reply was all that was needed to confirm this.
So why is this still seemingly up for debate? Legitimately asking, since this seems like it really isn't up for debate.
November 27th, 2023 at 11:18 AM ^
The spot sucked, but turnovers were the reason Michigan lost that game. Pick 6 and a botched snap inside the red zone killed their chances to win that game. Other than that they played well enough to beat osu that day. They played well enough to beat them with Okorn, but again turnovers killed them.
November 27th, 2023 at 11:57 AM ^
And I would add that several obvious pass interference non-calls with OSU DBs clearly holding and grabbing...with the flags staying in the pockets. Those are soooo clear. But...no flags.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:28 AM ^
Due to the league's apparent desire to fuck Michigan, I myself was expecting some heinous level bad calls to go against us. Such as Hutch's TD taken away vs MSU 2 yrs ago, and the goal line TD vs TCU. While there were some questionable calls and non-calls, it really didn't happen.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:33 AM ^
2016 was a bad call. In the range of reasonableness, it was at best on the far edge of just barely plausible. It was also very frustrating because of the multitude of terrible calls in that game, almost any of which would have given us the victory.
As for yesterday's TD, it looks like it was called correctly and reviewed correctly. I try to say that as objectively as I can; however, if I were an OSU fan stewing after another loss--and this one as close as it was--I would 100% be doing what they're doing in arguing that it wasn't a catch. When you lose, all you're left with is obsessing about the 3-5 plays in a game that could have flipped that. They're just doing what we've done many, many times. And that's what makes it extra sweet :)
November 27th, 2023 at 10:02 AM ^
Because OSU fans and their supporters don't live in a logical world and they don't let evidence get in the way of their delusional narratives.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:24 AM ^
Not saying you are wrong, but the same statement has been made of us and our defense of the Connor Stalions episode. Again, I’m on your side, but it’s VERY easy to have biases which cloud one’s interpretations of even the most objective situations.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:03 AM ^
Eh, he was pushing this line during the game. The man got a wild bug up his ass and just cannot expel it. But the game is over. The TD counted, as it should have. Michigan won. Fuck Ohio.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:03 AM ^
Fuck the media
November 27th, 2023 at 10:03 AM ^
I'll be super generous. I agree with you.
I believe the controversy is whether or not it was ever caught. If Roman never had control, and the ball never touched the ground, then OSU intercepted it. (Like a true never, not what the film clearly shows, which is that he established control at least twice and possibly three times.)
Obviously, Roman had control at least twice. First, when he catches the ball, then again when he brings his hand across his body to pin the ball to his body. It was actually incredible ball sense by Roman, and a great live call by the official. They had a perfect video angle to see almost everything that happened. No way that gets overturned except for very bad officiating. It should have been ruled "confirmed," imo.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:06 AM ^
This is a good explanation of the devils advocate view.
To me, I guess I just never really entertained the idea that he didn't maintain control for at least one millisecond while crossing the goal line.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:10 AM ^
It's all completely defeated, though, once you realize Roman was down with possession in the end zone, and it is only a firm tug by the defender which pries the ball out. That's what I mean by a "third" establishment of control. Once he's down, and the ball has to be forcibly stripped from his hands, and the ground did not help with the catch (he got his hands on the outside of the ball, so there's no way), then it's at worst a fumble recovered by Roman in the end zone for a touchdown and at best a figurative "tie" for possession which goes to the receiver. Dead ball, TD.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:15 AM ^
You need to take over for Dean Blandino.
November 27th, 2023 at 11:07 AM ^
That’s the bottom line for me. In what universe can you grab the ball away from the receiver who is already on the ground with possession and get credited an interception or a fumble recovery? When has that ever happened?
November 27th, 2023 at 10:11 AM ^
I think it's also fair (from a devil's advocate POV) to say that if he had control initially, then started bobbling, he would have to regain control after crossing the goal line again, right? Otherwise the ball's live and it could be considered a fumble recovery. But nobody at all, to my knowledge, has used that term, so they all feel control was never gained in the first place? That just isn't true.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
In their again admittedly weak defense, Burke got his hand on Wilson's arm and forced the bobble pretty immediately. So that does raise the issue of whether it's a catch. I actually think, looking at it again, it was closer than I thought watching it live, but I also think it's pretty clear that once he pins the ball with his left hand to his shoulder that he has control when he crosses the plane. He also goes to the ground without the ball touching the turf and Burke has to physically yank it from him. If 50/50 goes to the receiver, that was at least 70/30 in favor of Roman.
Fwiw, I think the "split the baby" approach would have been to call an incompletion rather than an INT on review. I don't think it's the right call, but I have to imagine they would not call that an INT because it just wasn't an INT.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:33 AM ^
They couldn't call it an incompletion, because the ball never hit the ground. It was either a TD or an interception.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:20 AM ^
No, if he established control initially he couldn't fumble it after crossing the goal line. It would be a TD and play would be dead. The only 2 outcomes of that play are TD wilson or interception. I think it was pretty close on replay and was pretty concerned when I saw the replay. He loses control for a moment before crossing the endzone, resecures it against his body, and then loses control a second time.
Edit: Sorry reading comprehension fail. If he secured possession and lost possession prior to crossing the goal line there could have been a fumble. Seemed pretty clear on replay that the issue was "if there ever was possession to begin with" so going from there only an interception or td could be the outcomes.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:27 AM ^
Yeah, your edit reflects my thoughts. I tend to agree probably not fumble, but possession was established when his left arm pins the ball to his shoulder/chest.
November 27th, 2023 at 11:12 AM ^
I’m surprised there isn’t any consideration given to a third possible outcome. I think his knee dragged the ground before tumbling into the end zone, so it would seem that being down at the 1-2 yard line could have conceivably also been an outcome?
November 27th, 2023 at 10:13 AM ^
He caught it at what the 4yrd line? took another couple steps plus what you said with securing the ball. That is less questionable on a "football move" than the Egbuka fumble later on (two feet planted and it is shaken loose).
If it wasn't caught, it would've been a INT and touchback because it never touched the turf. However, it should never have been a question that he had control when it crossed the plane. I too like Klatt, but I feel he created controversy where he didn't need to.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:32 AM ^
I think what they were checking on was more about whether Wilson was down before getting in the end zone. His knee hit the ground right on the end line. His body was straight up and down from his knee at that point and the ball was in both arms pressed against his chest so the ball has to also be in the end zone, however, there isn't a camera angle definitely showing the ball in the endzone at that exact moment so you have to infer it which makes it's a play stands rather than confirmed.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:04 AM ^
It's only up for debate among brainless OSU homers and media spin doctors trying to stir up controversy for clicks. The rational football world including review officials saw it as it was -a TD.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:57 AM ^
You can't reason with Buckeyes... They're nuts! :-D
November 27th, 2023 at 10:05 AM ^
I agree with you and wasn't worried during the review about the play being overturned. I was surprised the ref did not confirm the play and instead let the play stand as called.
I think the question is whether the ball was moving and therefore the catch wasn't secured by Wilson. I don't believe this is the case, but it's the only way it could be an issue.
If both come down with the ball, tie goes to the offense anyway. It's a TD.
At least it gives people that didn't win something to complain about.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:06 AM ^
I thought I saw the ball pop up a bit during the process of securing it which gave me some doubt. I wouldn't have been surprised if it had been ruled an interception.
If this is their 2016 spot moment, good for them.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:06 AM ^
Two thoughts
1. It’s a touchdown because it was called a touchdown and stood up to video review.
2. The game is over. Michigan won.
Bonus: Some folks will NEVER accept the idea that Michigan can accomplish remarkable things. Fuck em.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:06 AM ^
Eh, it's the media's job to mine controversy for clicks and future viewers, etc. Michigan just being better is getting to be old news, so they need to drum up some drama at every chance. That said, they are realllly reaching on this one.
He had possession in the end zone, end of true story. Beat Iowa.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:06 AM ^
Klatt is trying to save face because he also missed on this in real time.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:07 AM ^
They said the call stands, not the call was confirmed. Refs might mess that call up sometimes, but that's supposed to mean the replay is not definitive, therefore they go with the call on the field.
I think if you squint, you can see what Klatt is saying. But he's way over the top about it.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:08 AM ^
IMO the ball never really stopped moving. It's as close as close can be, and nowhere near enough to overturn, but I don't know that it wasn't picked. It's okay. I also think JT was short and Hutch had a strip sack TD, the clock hit 0 in E. Lansing and Charles Frickin' White lost the ball two yards outside the endzone.
The better team won Saturday. We'd beat them 8 out of 10. But we may have gotten a close one to go our way.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:10 AM ^
Plenty of the (too many IMO) video reviews went OSU's way.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:41 AM ^
Blake clearly scored a TD on the 3rd down after the Johnson pick (I thought) but other than that, I thought they got all the video reviews correct.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:51 AM ^
Also, Desmond was tripped.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:08 AM ^
I personally hope for nothing more than for OSU to tell themselves yet another narrative about how they were robbed. Cold/flu, 5 bad plays/signs, and now evidently refs (not sure how anyone watching that game could conclude it was called unfairly in Michigan's favor - it was either on-balance neutral or slightly tilted toward OSU). The last thing I want is for OSU to do some serious introspection and think about changing their approach to player development, game planning, etc.
The more they bitch about signs and cold weather and refs, the better for us.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
^ This is the correct take.
Michigan is in a great spot. Ohio State is the most entitled football program and fanbase in all of college and professional sports. They are mentally incapable of self-introspection. Their culture is "we win or someone else must be cheating."
November 27th, 2023 at 10:08 AM ^
Roman took 4 steps with the ball and a tie goes to the offense anyway. Ref really should have announced 'confirmed' instead of 'stands'.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:41 AM ^
exactly and no one mentioned the tie goes to the offense on air. Not that it was even a tie.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:10 AM ^
at the risk of repeating myself: he clearly possessed the ball when he broke the plane of the end zone. there could've been a convenience store robbery in the end zone after that and it wouldn't have mattered to the call. TD Michigan!!
November 27th, 2023 at 10:26 AM ^
Agree and this is the key moment. Knee is down right on the plane of the end zone, ball is up and slightly forward of his knee, and he is still clearly possessing the ball. There is no way to overturn this call.
That said, OP's sequence of events is off.
- Wilson crosses the line - nope, his knee hits right at or maybe a hair before the endzone.
- Wilson knee hits the ground several feet in to the endzone, still has the ball - as demonstrated above, his knee was down right at the end zone line.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:38 AM ^
Looks like the OSU player does not have his hands on the ball, so he wouldn't even have the "tie" condition XM correctly mentions above. That occurs after the TD.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:51 AM ^
Let me preface this by saying I thought it was a TD live and I thought it was a TD upon review. And I agree that this still shot is compelling.
That said, I don't think this still shot is 100% definitive because of the angle and we can't gauge the movement in a still shot, though it obviously looks like his hand and arm are covering the ball pretty well.
Regardless, for me, the point is if there was no call on the field and you had to make the call based solely on the video review, a normal person would still decide touchdown. Klatt's insistence during the game (and after the game) that this was some wild, controversial, probably even wrong decision is needlessly giving cover and aid to OSU fans and it's bizarre coming from him.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:11 AM ^
Yawn.
Saw it live from that endzone. Zero-percent surprised the call on the field was a TD.
Saw it on replay. Zero-percent surprised that Ohio State slappies wanted a different call. They're slappies. That's what they yammer about it. Always.
No definitive replay exists that shows a clear INT. This is classic "the call stands." If it was an INT on the field, that call would stand. This is nothing new. But for posterity, let's put it on the excuse list:
1) The Flu ('21)
(2) The Weather ('21)
(3) Five fluke plays ('22)
(4) They cheat (even though we know they are "cheating")('22)
(5) They're probably still "cheating" (even though it's not even logically possible)('23)
(6) Ref conspiracy ('23)
November 27th, 2023 at 10:20 AM ^
I'm really hoping that list gets longer and longer.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:12 AM ^
The only quibble I'd make to your summary is that his knee initially touched the ground *at* the goal line (not several feet into the end zone), but I believe the ball had broken the plane at that moment, so that difference is inconsequential to the call.
(UPDATE: Others beat me to the punch on this point. Apologies for the duplicate.)
November 27th, 2023 at 10:14 AM ^
Klatt live thought he didn't control the ball and he's def not a M hater. I disagree but I'm a homer but I think it's fair to say it was a bang bang close play that came down for us.
But OSU got the iffy incompletion/fumble, and also for some reason Mason Graham got called for a D holding when he got thrown to the ground (don't think it was On holding but prolly just shouldn't have been a call). It's hard to believe for all fans, us included, but these things usually go both ways. At worst, the Wilson catch is payback for JT, who was short
November 27th, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
I think there's definitely some question whether he ever had complete possession, but based on how it was called on the field, they correctly let the call stand. Live it looked like a TD and there was no evidence in the review to conclusively overturn it
November 27th, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
Wilson gained possession of the ball before he crossed the goal line. play over once the ball crossed the goal line.
Flemings catch and fumble ( not arguing the call) was more bang bang than Wilson's but hey what do you expect.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:17 AM ^
So weird how Klatt seemed to be in Michigans corner most of the year and turned and appeared to be openly rooting against them in the game. Almost as if he had money on OSU which he may very well have had.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:17 AM ^
I agree with OP 100%. It wasn’t even that close. Barely worthy of a review in my opinion.
November 27th, 2023 at 10:18 AM ^
If you catch a ball at the 45 yard line on your shoulder and just hold it there and run across the goal line and the defender takes it from you, it's still a touchdown. This is no different, right? Him going to the ground doesn't matter, right?
Also, the OSU catch fumble recovery was not a catch. That was even more borderline than Wilson's TD and nobody seems to be arguing that one.