Question on "Ohio State and other Big Ten teams" collusion

Submitted by WestQuad on November 8th, 2023 at 12:33 PM

From the Columbus dispatch (10/26)

 Ahead of its College Football Playoff semifinal matchup against Michigan in December, TCU was warned by Ohio State and other Big Ten teams about "Michigan's elaborate sign-stealing scheme," according to a Yahoo Sports report.

Pure speculation on my part, but I want to know* if anyone has seen anything else. 

  • Are these the same teams that were colluding to steal Michigan's signs?   
  • Is there any evidence that they shared Michigan's signs while they were warning TCU?   Seems like their loyalties aren't with the B1G.

Evidently there is no additional payout to the conference for a team making the National Championship game.

My memory of the TCU game is a bit fuzzy but I remember a lot of broken plays by that red headed QB being the difference.  Sign stealing wouldn't influence that.

 

*I've been spending 4-5 hours a day on this while looking for a job and haven't seen it discussed, so be nice to me.

J. Redux

November 8th, 2023 at 12:52 PM ^

No -- just, no.

 For one thing, although I didn't see it in his article, Larry Lage came on WTKA and said that his source -- Mr. Former Sign Stealer for an unnamed team, but likely Purdue -- informed Michigan prior to the playoff: "hey, here's what's floating around out there."  (It then follows that the more recent follow-up was basically the receipts).

For a second thing, if Michigan didn't change up their signs, that's on them.  Be consistent -- it's not fair to say "OSU should have changed their signs if they thought Michigan had them" but then to complain if somebody had Michigan's signs.

Third, given OSU's question to the NCAA, advanced scouting of potential playoff teams doesn't appear to have been an NCAA violation, presumably because they weren't currently on your schedule (but more to the point, because it's not a big advantage)

Fourth, it really isn't that big of an advantage -- you still need to make the play.

And finally -- while I don't claim to be an expert, the postgame breakdowns on those plays cited poor footwork putting the ball in range of the defender instead of in a spot where only the receiver can get it.

TCU didn't steal that game from Michigan.  Michigan gave it to them.

BoFan

November 8th, 2023 at 2:02 PM ^

Your response to that post is correct.  But the question asked by the OP is not whether or not TCU having Michigan’s signs changed the game. 

The original question and the real issue is whether or not Ryan Day is so petty that he shared Michigan’s signs with TCU.  In that case there is no doubt he did.  He had them.  He shared them with Purdue.  He told TCU Michigan might have their signs.  He absolutely shared Michigan’s signs with TCU. 

Romeo50

November 8th, 2023 at 1:59 PM ^

So a new hire with no previous football background and an obsession uses private individuals to use cell phones to better observe signals versus plays than he could get from all the game film he already gets and then synthesizes it to help discern plays upon playing the teams recorded...allegedly. This is not a written NCAA rule by the way. This same person may have attended one game of a future opponent on his own time as yet still unproven.

Balanced in the interest of fairness and competitive balance against that is at least three Bigten schools already synthesized and charted on a spreadsheet signals of Michigan. Their professional coaches advance scouted sharing and acceptance of this with future opponents of Michigan in the biggest of games certainly trumps what the over zealous novice can come up with especially since UM acknowledged the signals documented were indeed accurate. The team central who did this and stood most to benefit from this competitive advantage is pressing the most to punish its rival and benefit further in record and recruiting.

Weigh that Tony.

BallsoHarb

November 8th, 2023 at 12:50 PM ^

One of the passes was underthrown and I don’t think JJ makes that error this year. The other was either a good play or nefarious advanced scouting. Don’t forget the goal line fumble and that weird run play at the goal line when we could have just ran a QB sneak. A lot of points left on the field of our own doing.

BallsoHarb

November 8th, 2023 at 1:09 PM ^

I was being a bit sarcastic on the nefarious scouting part. I think that second interception was a great play, a bad read on JJs part sure. My greater point is - I don’t think our signs being in the possession of TCU matters. We made a ton of very costly mistakes, that didn’t appear to be due to signs.

brad

November 8th, 2023 at 1:28 PM ^

I don't know.  Signs or no, TCU's entire game strategy was basically "Live or Die Explosively"

They did not have the team to grind out a win against Michigan on either side of the ball, Michigan preferred to grind teams to dust last year, and so TCU set up play such that Michigan could only win explosively.  You have to hand it to Dikes for that, it was a smart strategy.

Jumping inside running lanes, jumping short routes, quick strike scoring drives or nothing for them, monster explosive scores for us.  Everything in that game was explosive.  You can't blame jumping short lateral routes on sign stealing, because TCU was probably sitting on those the entire game.

Prince Lover

November 8th, 2023 at 2:47 PM ^

Yeah, I like how the tcu players went back and rewatched the “tv version” to see how stallions got the signals wrong…..

I don’t watch many games on tv anymore, so maybe someone can clarify…generally speaking….how many times do the broadcasts show the dc and a staffer talking to each other? I thought they usually showed the teams lining up and maybe a hc shot in there every now and then….

But then again, the whole reason tcu won is bc poor ol’ Michigan just ain’t much without their cheating!

 

conradb42

November 8th, 2023 at 12:36 PM ^

There is a 0% chance that the conversation was "hey lookout for sign stealing, and good luck!"

It was definitely "hey lookout for sign stealing, and here is what we've gathered so far. good luck!"

WestQuad

November 8th, 2023 at 12:56 PM ^

Appreciate it mi93 and Gerald Ford 48.  My resume is all over the place due to wanting to stay near my wife's parents before they passed. Succinctly:

16 years as a producer and Director of groups of producers making kids video games, educational SaaS and toys for Disney, Mattel, Hasbro, Cambium Learning, etc.

12 years in business development and sales for a white label web portal (think yahoo or AOL).

Michigan undergrad, got a free MBA with honors at a top 75 school. 1 year of teacher certification grad school that I didn't finish.  

Looking for a senior manager/director/VP level product or software production role.  Could also do negotiations/biz dev.

Erik_in_Dayton

November 8th, 2023 at 12:40 PM ^

I'm pretty sure that we don't have that info, no.

And, as Gerald Ford said*, good luck with the job search!  That's never fun.

 

*There's something I don't say every day. 

Goggles Paisano

November 8th, 2023 at 12:41 PM ^

Your memory is fuzzy.  It was the TD to Roman that was taken off the board, and followed up with a Mullings fumble on the goal line.  That plus two pick-sixes was the difference.  However, that horrible replay reversal may have really been the difference.  

1VaBlue1

November 8th, 2023 at 1:04 PM ^

Is everyone just glossing over the shit-tastic game plan the offense came in with?  You know, the one where we run into a stacked line until down 20-some points in the first half?  The one where we don't use any play-action to punish the LB's and safeties for firing early against the run up the middle?  You know, also the one where JJ is kept on a tight leash until a massive comeback is needed?

Yeah, the two pick-6's hurt, as did the Roman non-TD and the Mullings fumble.  But there's plenty of blame to go around on the offensive brain trust, as well... 

And having our offensive signs wouldn't hurt, either.

lilpenny1316

November 8th, 2023 at 12:45 PM ^

They aren't loyal to the B1G because they don't have a commissioner like the SEC has. Pettiti was a fool to let those coaches and ADs have his ear without Michigan on the phone. He should've told all of them to STFU and stop airing each others dirty laundry. He didn't do that, and now your flagship athletic department is under heavy scrutiny.

ST3

November 8th, 2023 at 1:39 PM ^

Conference loyalty means nothing in the ACC so they tied their hands together with the grant of rights until 2036.

Conference loyalty meant nothing to the PAC-12 and so they dissolved. 
 
Conference loyalty meant nothing to the BIG12 so they lost Missouri, Texas and Oklahoma and replaced them with lesser teams. 

The SEC pays lip service to conference loyalty. What keeps them together is the money and the lack of a better alternative. 

Apparently, conference loyalty means nothing to the other 13 Big10 teams. We’re about to find out what that means.

Billy Ray Valentine

November 8th, 2023 at 12:42 PM ^

Any reporter worth anything will ask Ryan Day this question beginning now. If Charmin-soft Ryan Day answers with "no comment," the reporters should ask the question over and over until he answers with substance, even if it's a BS denial such as "as far as I'm aware...."

And to point out the obvious, Ohio State got their asses handed to them in their own place last year even though they knew in advance we had a sign stealer. Half competent coaches could use that info their great advantage. Ohio State fans have so much pent up anger because their team/fanbase is a toxic mix of entitlement and underachievement that they're blind to the fact that their anger should be directed at their unworthy head coach. 

RibbleMcDibble

November 8th, 2023 at 12:48 PM ^

Right, if you have this information, you use it to your advantage and screw with Michigan. Instead...

Its likely that Ohio State:

Had Michigan's signs

Knew Michigan knew their signs

Was at home

With a NFL starter QB

And Marvin Harrison Jr

And Perfect weather

And Michigan had no Blake Corum

And a limited Mike Morris

And still lost 45-23 (which as someone pointed out on Twitter, should have been 52-23 if not for the pity whistle at the end that stopped a Michigan scoop and score).