Question on Issue - Gattis vs. Patterson
This was discussed some in O snowflakes, but asking more of a direct question. That has over 400 hits so think it’s worth a thread. I want to get the reaction of the fan base & mainly from ones who attend the games and can see the entire field.
Is the issues more Gattis play calling and nobody is getting open or Shea Patterson and just not making the right read? Unfortunately I haven’t been able to attend a game, so on TV you can’t see as much. Is Gattis system getting guys open and Shea missing them? Is Shea just not forcing really hard throws (told ball security priority #1) and this O can’t seem to get anyone open, thus blame to Gattis? Shea misses a few throws and receivers drop a few passes, but seems the main issue is the system/play calling sucks, or our QB is awful and can’t make simple decisions that any good Power 5 college QB should make.
I know it clearly isn’t 100% one way or another, but looking at the majority of the time. Ones that attend the games and can see the field should be able to help answer this. Who is at the biggest fault for why this O completely sucks on actual plays in games (not bigger issues like Harbaugh in year 5, Gattis year 1 running his own O, Patterson regressing, Patterson loves golf in summer).
October 6th, 2019 at 12:48 PM ^
It’s multi layered. Shea didn’t see a lot of guys open because he doesn’t look at them. He has blinders on and stares down his one receiver he reads as being open pre snap. Even on the few pulls he had, he was tentative, looks like he’s afraid to get hit. If Shea is going to continue to play, then they will have to roll him out. He’s more comfortable doing that, and is still somewhat accurate throwing on the run.
I would prefer seeing anyone else play QB now as long as they open up the entire playbook. Shea is holding the offense back, and Gattis isn’t helping by not calling plays that he can run confidently.
October 6th, 2019 at 1:03 PM ^
????♂️
October 6th, 2019 at 1:22 PM ^
You tell ‘em Shea
October 6th, 2019 at 1:24 PM ^
You're gonna be alright Shea, just gotta keep the faith my guy
October 6th, 2019 at 1:26 PM ^
Why is it almost never DPJ, Collins, or Black that's "his one receiver he reads as being open pre snap"? I wouldn't even care if he locked onto his first option if that option was a downfield pass to DPJ, Collins, or Black.
October 6th, 2019 at 2:18 PM ^
I agree. When he throws to the wrong guy, it seems like it's always Bell, Eubanks, or a RB.
October 6th, 2019 at 3:12 PM ^
100% agree. Well said.
October 6th, 2019 at 12:50 PM ^
60% Patterson
35%Harbaugh
5% Gattis
They are all to blame but I put the majority on the QB and the coach
October 6th, 2019 at 12:55 PM ^
Well, besides the QB and coach, who/what else would be left to blame? The weather?
October 6th, 2019 at 1:01 PM ^
The Oline has had its share of problems in pass protection as well, which gives Patterson the yips back there in the pocket. He is also not a good improviser, despite being fairly mobile, and is inclined to just throw the ball away if the called play goes awry.
October 6th, 2019 at 1:04 PM ^
I thought pass protection was OK yesterday, not great but better than the first couple of weeks. I don't think that was the primary factor.
October 6th, 2019 at 1:20 PM ^
Shea consistently bails from the pocket and rolls out to his right even when there is no pressure, then he has zero protection and is also oblivious to the entire left side of the field. The staff may be telling him not to force throws but his play and poor decision making is exacerbating the ineptitude of the play calling.
October 6th, 2019 at 6:00 PM ^
Deserving of much more than +5
October 6th, 2019 at 2:02 PM ^
The canard of poor OL play as causing Shea's issues is laughable. Stanley was being attacked from all sides yesterday and still made quick decisions, hit slants and crossing routes and deep balls. True, Shea made only one really bad decision on his INT, but people are WIDE OPEN on nearly every play and certainly at least a few times on every series of downs. Shea is a bad QB this year. He cannot make simple reads we all see QB's across the conference and all the NCAA's make consistently.
But Gattis is also ass as an OC. Fade to Bell? Eubanks out of the backfield instead of a quick slot? Taking out Tru and replacing him with Turner when Tru was getting into a rhythm and picking up blitzes? Not putting in more deep balls to the WRs? That is just some seriously dumbass shit.
October 6th, 2019 at 4:52 PM ^
If I wasn't clear I meant he has no protection because he voluntarily leaves an intact pocket often to run out to the flat. I dont fault an o-line when QBs make poor survivability decisions.
October 6th, 2019 at 2:24 PM ^
Brandon and Keith Jackson...............
October 6th, 2019 at 3:48 PM ^
Well, not the guy running the defense, he's not one to blame in this game.
October 6th, 2019 at 12:58 PM ^
70 Harbaugh
20 Gattis
10 Shea
No QBs have improved under Jim other than Jake who had 4 years to learn basic fundamental play at Iowa.
Jim is also responsible for hiring a noob OC.
Jim is also responsible for creating a running QB system with 2 frail QBs in Shea and MAC
October 6th, 2019 at 1:07 PM ^
I wouldn't really call it a "running QB system." Having a QB occasionally keep the ball on a zone read is pretty much a standard part of offensive football nowadays.
October 6th, 2019 at 1:34 PM ^
The downvotes are incredible....
Why are people so against this belief?
Harbaugh has failed on Brandon Peter's, John O'kourn, Wilton Speight and now Shea... and theirs a strong possibility Joe milton or Dylan won't be anything but average.
He's had 5 years to bring in at worst a solid game.managing quarterback and he's utterly failed.
Harbaugh either can't find the right coordinator or retain the good ones ( Jedd ).
We have all experienced upper classmen on our offense with tons of NFL potential and we look like garbage.
Michigan fans come back to reality...
October 6th, 2019 at 1:47 PM ^
It’s more distressing to blame the head coach because frankly our program is stuck with him for a long time.
We could bring in Trevor Lawrence as a 3rd year transfer and I sincerely question whether he would pass for over 3000 yards under Jim.
October 6th, 2019 at 1:58 PM ^
We are absolutely not stuck with Harbaugh. If the alumni puts enough pressure on the athletic department if the team keeps playing like garbage and goes 7-5 in Harbaughs 5th year then they will pull the trigger and find someone new.
October 6th, 2019 at 2:40 PM ^
I would strongly advise you to rethink this idea.
When we hired Harbaugh, his résumé was phenomenal. We are extremely unlikely to find someone of those credentials again. Look at USC, which has every natural advantage in the world and has never replaced Carroll. A guy with Harbaugh's résumé doesn't come into the picture unless he has ties to the school, and the remaining crop of Michigan Men isn't too strong.
If we have a bad year, OK, maybe Gattis isn't the guy and Jim should let him go. But I don't think we're going to get a better head coach.
We're not hiring the guy (Meyer) that OSU just fired for covering up a domestic abuser (and that's most likely what happened, regardless of what their press release says).
We're not going to randomly convince Lincoln Riley to come here.
At any rate, if you want Harbaugh gone, you're putting your faith in Warde Manuel (who seems to be fairly unpopular here) to find the right guy to succeed him.
Our best bet is to hope that Harbaugh - who has undeniably improved us from where we were in 2014 - figures out the best way to manage this program. Finding a stud OC is easier than finding a stud HC. If James Franklin can figure it out, Harbaugh can, too.
October 6th, 2019 at 3:05 PM ^
Gruden is in play.
/s
October 6th, 2019 at 3:22 PM ^
In football the only thing that matters is, what have you done for us lately? Love Smith looked like a football guru at one point, Chip Kelly, Lane Kiffin. Those are just a few coaches who looked like genius's at one point and then fell off a cliff.
It feels like Harbaugh is joining this group... unfortunately. If things continue this way then the alumni will give the athletic department the nod of approval to send Jim away.
October 7th, 2019 at 2:01 AM ^
It might be that a lot of alumni think differently compared to you. I know that I do.
October 6th, 2019 at 6:36 PM ^
Ugh...still holding on to Jim's resume? That's not how you judge whether a coach should be let go. Who cares if he was great 15 years ago?
October 6th, 2019 at 2:43 PM ^
And it will all start over again. And people will be miserable again. Because there is no national champion coach store. And people won’t have the patience to let a program grow.
October 6th, 2019 at 10:09 PM ^
Agreed. Give JH another 8-10 recruiting classes and I am confident we may challenge for a B1G championship.
It doesn't get fixed overnight.
October 6th, 2019 at 2:11 PM ^
Harbaugh will leave on his own. He is burned out.
October 6th, 2019 at 2:16 PM ^
I get this feeling as well..
He will probably go on TV for a year or two then head back to the NFL.
October 6th, 2019 at 2:41 PM ^
I don’t think he can commentate, or even narrate, anything.
October 6th, 2019 at 2:50 PM ^
Out of curiosity, what makes you believe he is burned out? While I agree with others that the job is Jim's unless he says otherwise, I don't get the vibe that he is burned out per se.
October 6th, 2019 at 2:58 PM ^
I’ve been burned out before and know what it’s like to not be able to muster enthusiasm when this happens. He must be working himself to death.
October 6th, 2019 at 4:40 PM ^
Not when the offense is finally hitting its stride...
October 6th, 2019 at 2:11 PM ^
I downvoted for the dumbass comment about "frail" QBs. That's just stupid.
October 6th, 2019 at 3:04 PM ^
I agree it’s stupid to utilize a frail QB like DMC as if he’s JT Barrett.
October 6th, 2019 at 3:38 PM ^
I downvoted for reading a thread of two dumbasses circle jerkin.
How can you possibly say he “missed” on developing. Ruddock he got drafted, Wilton was a nobody 3 star who lead probably harbaugh’s best team to a bad call away from the playoffs, peters never really got the chance and that team was a dumpster throughout the roster, JOK was a flier. That said, shea has been disappointing. That’s the only thing I agree with at all in this dumb thread.
October 6th, 2019 at 5:18 PM ^
Your excuses for 5 years of mediocre QB play still doesn’t vindicate Jim.
Ruddock was serviceable enough to get drafted as 7th rounder/practice squad guy. That’s Jim’s biggest QB win in 5 years.
Speight regressed in year 2, as has Shea. JOK Peters and DMC have looked mediocre at QB despite multiple years under Jim.
October 7th, 2019 at 12:25 AM ^
You lost me at " Peter's never really had a chance".
October 6th, 2019 at 12:53 PM ^
Enough fault to go around but a majority of it is on Shea, he consistently misses open receivers to his right, makes bad reads on good play calls, bad throws to open receivers.
October 6th, 2019 at 12:55 PM ^
Shea and Gattis are problems. And in year 5 of the regime, that falls on the HC. I think it was a good decision to try and modernize our offensive system. Just looks like we picked the wrong guy. Shea is worse this year than last. A lot of that is probably on him, some on the new system/OC.
October 6th, 2019 at 1:02 PM ^
October 6th, 2019 at 1:26 PM ^
The whole "how dare you use the pronoun 'we' for a sports team" thing is one of the dumber internet arguments out there, and that's saying something.
October 6th, 2019 at 1:58 PM ^
I''m not pining for the '18 offense but it's looking like many of our gripes about it were things they did to protect Shea. Not throwing over the middle (Shea is often late and you can't be late over the middle), two man routes (not gonna get to a third progression anyway), general run/pass balance, etc.
On top of that I think we also may have overrated our receivers based on the plays they made on once a quarter big PA. They're not getting the same kind of separation. The big 3 juniors may all end up NFL guys (Nico and DPJ are and we should see more from DPJ once he gets healthier) but perhaps not the high picks we thought and frankly I'm not seeing it with Black.
October 6th, 2019 at 12:57 PM ^
I have been the biggest Big 3 supporter of anyone, but it’s starting to become apparent they are somewhat part of the issue as well. Zero separation all year, it’s hard to have speed in space when they can’t create any space on their own. Shea has missed lots of open receivers and thrown plenty of terrible balls, and Gattis hasn’t impressed yet, but it’s not just one thing. Everyone needs to get it through their thick skull that it isn’t just the coaches, the QB, the O line or the WRs, it’s a combination of EVERYTHING.
October 6th, 2019 at 1:02 PM ^
Only Michigan football can beat a top 15 team and hold them to 3 points and still be considered a laughing stock.
There is 0 excuse not throw more than 1 deep ball especially after it went for 50+ yards.
There has to be something holding Gattis back. The pass protection was good enough to at least try multiple deep passes.
It’s like Harbaugh is telling Gattis only 1 deep ball per game because this is Michigan and it’s not how we do things here. Kidding of course, but something is off and we will probably never know what it is.
October 6th, 2019 at 1:07 PM ^
I agree more deep shots could be utilized. But it’s obvious there won’t be. The routes and schemes the coaches are asking these WRs to run just aren’t conducive for their talents.
October 6th, 2019 at 1:44 PM ^
Iowa scored 30 against Rutgers. Michigan scored 62.
Judging from what you've seen from our offense, doesn't that strike you as Iowa fitting the same scenario in which Michigan was not deserving of their pre-season rank?
Never mind the fact that the point differential of a game doesn't often tell the whole story of how the game played out. We eeked one out thanks to our defense stepping up. It shouldn't have been that close. An inept game plan where we didn't take enough shots down field when Ferentz himself said he was worried about his shorter corners matching up against our tall receivers.
Why wasn't this utilized more when we clearly had success with it when Nico Collins deep catch was responsible for setting up our only TD?
So yes, it is sort of a laughing stock and we were fortunate to come away with the win.
October 6th, 2019 at 1:04 PM ^
WRs seemed to show some improvement under McElwain. Are we back to not having a WR coach?