Non business-type crootin or a National Championship? Hypothetical choice
The hot topic before this NSD is of course what I would consider the "business-like" recruiting tactics of one Jim Harbaugh and staff. My personal stance on the issue is I don't believe that big time success (multiple B1G championships or 1 NC in a decade) is obtainable without these business-like recruiting practices. Sadly, I don't think these two things are mutually exlusive anymore. I don't like these types of practices and makes me feel a bit icky, but it also got me thinking - do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?
I'm thinking about the benefits of the other players, coaches, students, alumni, fans etc. If a few kids have to "sacrifice" in order for the collective to benefit, is it worth it?
So - would you be OK with this kind of stuff happening with recruiting every year if it meant we'd get 2-3 B1G championships and 1 NC every 10 years?
January 26th, 2016 at 11:47 AM ^
sending a recruit to its school and then travels to see the recruit, the recruit commits and then at NSD chooses another school can the school sue the kids family. I do not see any issues with Harbaugh recruiting. College football does not give out participation tropheys only NC and bowl winners get them. Recruits that get cut during recruiting can find other teams even at the last minute, some recruits sign after NSD. Our society is caught in a tug of war about social services, fair housing, discrimination etc....football is still based on finding the best of the best, its a hard game fought by tough men and not everyone can handle it. Those of you sitting in the stands whinning about fairness in recruiting really have no impact on the game. Jim Harbaugh knows that if he does not win it is an issue for him, and coaches that don't win GET FIRED, SELL THEIR HOMES, MOVE THEIR KIDS OUT OF TOWN. Guess what is next, players on the roster that get hurt and don't participate are probably going to be sent off the team to make room for better players who can play ala Alabama, and then we can have that discussion next year most likely.
January 26th, 2016 at 11:06 AM ^
chicken dinner.
If he's not breaking rules, fans shouldn't worry. "Processing" is part of the game, and takes place at all the top tier (and those aspiring to be top tier) programs. Call it whatever you want, but at the end of the day, it's competitive roster management, and as long as NCAA regulations are followed, I'm fine with it.
Having said that, and it should go without saying, but, I would hope that the staff is always honest with kids about where they stand.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:17 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 10:19 AM ^
I don't know if I'd go that far to call it that - but I suppose that all depends on your intrepetation of the events that have unfolded. Personally, I don't think it's to that degree yet (and hoping it doesn't go there) I.E., purposefully oversigning, medical hardship stuff, etc.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:18 AM ^
As the great Beanie Siegel once said in his film debut "State Property". "You either get down, or you lay down!"
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January 26th, 2016 at 10:18 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 10:19 AM ^
I would say we certainly do not want or no longer want to honor a scholarship offer to a player regardless of his performance and not continually re-evaluate players.
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January 26th, 2016 at 10:52 AM ^
That has to be the case otherwise recruits wouldn't be able to back out of a verbal for no reason other than "they changed their minds" without repurcussions. If they do that after signing an LOI, hey have to sit out a year.
So there is nothing to "rescind". Obviously, the way you do that matters, but I'm seeing a lot of people making a lot of gross assumptions about the ethics of what Harbaugh did without really knowing how Harbuagh did it, which is precisely what is needed to judge ethics here. No I don't think giving a recruit the cold shoulder is some ethical violation necessarily, especially when it's clear Weaver knew in the fall (at least in November, if not well before that) that his spot was never guaranteed.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:20 AM ^
Michigan Football has been mediocre for long enough. It's time to be elite.
January 26th, 2016 at 11:12 AM ^
Nobody will remember or mention or care about this a year from now.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:20 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 11:29 AM ^
Personally, I couldn't care less about abiding by some NCAA rules. Harbaugh can give kids the nicest damn cream cheese with their bagels and it wouldn't bother me at all. Just communicate honestly and openly with the kids who think they've been given an opportunity to play football at Michigan. There's no rule requiring that - and there can't be - but it's really not hard (or damaging) to do.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:21 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 10:32 AM ^
I agree. The problem is with the system, not Coach. I think they should have an early signing period. I can't wait until I get to stop seeing Swenson's name.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:21 AM ^
Thread over.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:30 AM ^
I would like this as well, but point me to a National Champion that also didn't practice these recruiting methods.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:44 AM ^
If only there were evidence that recruiting was done the "right" way back then. Sorry, but pointing to 20 years ago, before recruiting was as heavily reported on, is not an example. How do you know Carr didn't use similar tactics in recruiting? Did you just assume he didn't?
Hell, I have read multiple stories on recruiting sites about how Bo used to pull scholarships from guys that were not performing to his standards.
January 26th, 2016 at 11:21 AM ^
Our only claimed national title in the last 65 years.
That should disturb every Michigan fan.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:21 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 10:22 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 10:23 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 10:25 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 10:33 AM ^
I'm sorry, but thinking this is the only year this is going to happen is a bit naive. Harbaugh has a history of doing this at Stanford as well and I think this is just the way he roles, for better or worse.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:48 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 10:25 AM ^
Natty.
If it won't get us in trouble (not whether or not it is legal - whether it is doable/safe enough to not get caught or be defensible) then fucking do it. We aren't going to catch up to Bama and OSU by clicking our ruby red slippers together and wishing we were elite. Jim knows this and is acting on it.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:32 AM ^
Would being more clear with Weaver and Swenson really have reduced Michigan's national championship chances by that much?
Another question - this one for people who don't at all mind what's happened: Do you just root for Michigan out of habit? Or do you want them to stand for something?
January 26th, 2016 at 11:24 AM ^
It's been obvious for a long time—long before all this current recruiting hoo-ha—that a significant portion of MGoBloggers sneer at the notion that Michigan should stand for something above and beyond what's merely permissible.
Sure, they beat the chests continually about how we're so superior to those loser institutions up in EL or down in Columbus, except when it comes to the question of winning on the field. Then all that brash talk about "The Michigan Difference" goes in the dumper, and it's "Just win by any means necessary, and you're a pussy if you think Harbaugh isn't infallible."
An indication of how prevalent this attitude is: merely suggesting that the staff could improve its communications with some recruits is downvoted.
January 26th, 2016 at 11:09 AM ^
As someone who defended the approach further up the thread, I'll chime in.
Absolutely Michigan should stand for something, and be above board in their approach. That said, there are degrees of offense. Nothing done here is outside the rules. While I certainly want to see better communication with recruits on their standing, and improved timing with borderline prospects, I think there has been an overreaction. There is room to improve, and I hope those improvements are made. That said, this is not on par with the Miles/Saban approach, and I feel like that is still a distinction that should be made.
January 26th, 2016 at 11:33 AM ^
I have purposefully not said things like "This is outrageous." The communication and use of non-commitable offers needs to be cleaned up - no more and no less.
January 26th, 2016 at 11:16 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 11:19 AM ^
You don't know that. They could be taking spots of guys who will actually play and wind up making a critical play to win a championship.
You will not give two shits about any of this stuff happening the moment we win a conference title, much less a national title.
January 26th, 2016 at 11:40 AM ^
It still bothers me that Michigan can't - and shouldn't - hang its '92 and '93 Final Four banners. I still don't like the way Demar Dorsey was offered a scholarship only to have it withdrawn. I'm still bothered by the appearance of cheating under RR as a result of the stretching issue.
I do care about these things, and I remember them. You should care too, or do you just like Michigan because you like their helmets?
January 26th, 2016 at 12:59 PM ^
I'm tired of rhetoric. I've heard nothing but rhetoric the last decade. All we've been doing the last decade pre-Harbaugh is talking.
I want to win championships.
January 26th, 2016 at 12:35 PM ^
No wait, it's not time for that argument yet this off season.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:32 AM ^
It is closer to not understanding how to recruit. This class would end up the exact same way it is if Harbaugh did his homework before handing out offers to low ranked 3 and 2 stars only to then get rid of them. So if you can arrive to the same ends with better means, why go about it in the absolutely worst way you can?
There have been a lot of comparisions with Alabama (which is always bad), but even Bama doesn't do what Harbaugh is doing. Bama is not out there offering 2 stars and other recruits no other Power Conference school wants just to pull the offer down the road.
So this entire process that is so shady is completely unnecessary, there was no real compeition for these kids that you are now showing the door.
January 26th, 2016 at 11:07 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 10:30 AM ^
I really don't think you have to pick either. Tell any of these guys a month ago that we're looking at better options and there's no Michigan bashing or icky feeling.
But playing by your rules: I hold Michigan to a higher standard than "do whatever the NCAA says is legal." At the end of the day we're talking about college football. It's a big business and is great for university exposure, but if Michigan loses it'll sting for maybe a day. I watch it for entertainment and try not to get too invested in it (I mostly fail). In light of that, I would rather Michigan put together a respectable on field product and do it with integrity than be in the hunt for a NC every year while processing players like they're disposable.
Again, I don't think it's a choose one or the other situation. But if Michigan is going to win I want them to do it the "right" way.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:33 AM ^
Didn't we all wonder WTF was going on last summer when we were offering a bunch of 2 and 3 star recruits? Personally, I thought that the program was in a much deeper hole than any of us knew, which meant these were the kids we'd have to take for a while.
As it turns out, I think that going 10-3 and pitching 3 straight shut-outs this season allowed us to get in on recruits that would have passed on Michigan if we had another mediocre (or bad) year.
Going forward I'd like to see the staff focus on 4 and 5 star recruits first. If we strike out with them, then you take the lower rated guys. I see no value in offering low rated guys early in the year unless you're 100% sure they're a take on NSD.
But I'm a banker so WTF do I know?
January 26th, 2016 at 10:34 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 10:35 AM ^
I prefer whichever way is going to bring us a National Championship, as long as it is within the rules. As far as these kids go.....there is a reason each kid is allowed 5 Official Visits to colleges. To have options, back-up plans, not put all your eggs in one basket.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:36 AM ^
If he comes in and says 'You have a commitable offer' but then, at some (reasonable) time later he says 'Okay, to maintain this offer your performance on the field has to continue improving' that is okay. It gives the kid a chance to make other plans and/or to get his $hit together if he can.
To me, its no different than the academic issues. 'You're accepted, but if you want to come to Michigan your GPA has to be maintained'.
By all accounts Harbaugh at Stanford, and here, has done a good job of bringing kids in, and once they are in trying to motivate and guide them. It is very much a meritocracy, but he also isn't running a football factory. Encouraging academics and encouraging them to get jobs in the off season are things that he wouldn't have them do if it was a total football factory mentality. Offering Falcon a medical, and Pipkins as well, tells me he actually wants the best for these kids. It would have been nice to have Pipkins this year; but the coach thought better of the kids health.
All of these things make me think his heart is largely in the right place. But his heart is also one that is about intense competition. And frankly it looks like it starts right from the moment you commit. If he's communicating with them about it, then its all good. It may not be fuzzy, but its fair. It might be 'businesslike' but I think its okay. What is out of state tuition now? He's basically saying 'Here is a check for $80-100K. But to get it you have to perform well enough to earn it. Heck, I heard a podcast where Doug Skene said the same thing happened to a kid in his town back in the (Moeller?) era.
If Harbaugh gets to the point where he is forcing people off the team 'Bama style then its time to be worried. If he starts doing things that might get us sanctioned by the NCAA its time to worry. If the communication ends up being truly 'Hey, 2 weeks to signing day. Bye!' then its time to be worried.
But I don't see any good evidence we are there yet. For me to get there I'd need more than one instance, and have those instances be reflected on by Brian, Sam, Lorenz and the rest going 'Whoa, we had no idea, everything was going fine from what we heard and we expected him here and he's just gone now...'
So in my opinion, he's recruiting fine right now until we hear otherwise. Its not as huggy as Hoke, but its okay.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:38 AM ^
Seems like it doesnt have to be one or the other, though. Only thing that really drives the idea of "business-like" tactics is lack of communication and that's a simple fix. Either hold out on the offers or communicate their position on the board better and allow the kids to make their own decision about if they want to wait it out with us.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:38 AM ^
I missed that proposal earlier which included the handing out of an agreement signed by the University rep (coach) and the recruit's parents (assuming he/she is under 18) which would do three things.
First it would not be rescindable by the University. Second it would put a halt of communication from any representative of any university other than the one in the agreement. Third, it would be non-binding for the kid, they could back out if coaches changed etc.
I liked this. This is good. Lets talk about this more.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:39 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 10:41 AM ^
Part of me wants a clear definition of "business-like" in this instance, just so the board has a better point of reference - there are likely plenty of programs whose recruiting policies and practices fall under that heading, but as each business has a culture which gives rise to certain practices, each coaching staff creates a culture which does the same thing. I was just curious as to whether or not we could narrow this down a bit to get better answers.
If you're asking whether or not I can accept that culture in the case of Harbaugh and his staff then the answer is "yes" and that's based on what we've been able to observe thus far. Obviously, it's not perfect and there are aspects of it that I may not 100% understand or agree with (perhaps in part because recruiting is alien to me and I interpret it through the lens of essentially irrelevant professional experience), but I am not up in arms certainly.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:41 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 10:42 AM ^
Give me a break, it's big time college football and people are being naive to think this hasn't happened before.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:42 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 10:42 AM ^