MS3

January 29th, 2024 at 8:01 AM ^

Brutal loss. He was the foundation of this turnaround over the last 3 years.

Might be an unpopular opinion but it doesn't sit well with me that Harbaugh is taking Herbert on his way out. Minter is understandable given he was going to the NFL sooner rather than later, but the strength coach? Rumors are he wants to take Abigail O'Connor as well (head nutritionist). Maybe I don't understand the NFL staffing hierarchy well but those positions seem negligent at the next level whereas in college they are vital. Seems like the core of the football program is being gutted before our eyes.

Doesn’t strike me as wanting to setup Sherrone for success.

blueheron

January 29th, 2024 at 8:11 AM ^

Bummer, yes. The cultural impact of the S&C coach may be overrated at times (Remember Mike Barwis?) but Herbert was for sure important.

As for Harbaugh, he's in another place and he has to make the decisions that he believes maximize his chances for success. If that means poaching the whole Michigan staff, so be it.

There's no reason that Sherrone can't find competent -- or better -- replacements as he shapes his own culture.

MRunner73

January 29th, 2024 at 8:20 AM ^

The players spend most of their time with the S&C coach so it cannot be undervalued. The NFL S&C structure is much different in college because many of pros have their own S&C trainers.

Hopefully Justin Tress can carry the mantle at Schmbechler Hall. All we can do is wish him the all the best.

stephenrjking

January 29th, 2024 at 8:20 AM ^

Coaching is a profession and coaches want to progress in their profession and to elevate those around them. That’s part of what makes Harbaugh effective, part of what made guys like Moore and Minter work, part of what drew guys from the Ravens. That naturally includes bringing guys to go to the NFL. 

People are holding the Michigan staff, current and former, to standards that they do not hold themselves, their friends and coworkers, or their own place of business. If you don’t want to move up in your field, great, but there are a lot of people that do and that will change workplaces to do so.

The fact that Harbaugh is the kind of guy who makes people around him better is what gave us a national title, and is what draws people to follow him.

This is just frustration with challenging personnel losses being turned into dumb anger and lashing out. 

stephenrjking

January 29th, 2024 at 8:55 AM ^

You can love a place and still move on, particularly in a brutally itinerant profession like coaching. Remember, most of the people angry in this thread also want program legend Juwan Howard fired because last year was mediocre and this year is downright bad. And that may be the right thing to do! But each of these guys is a single bad year (from someone else!) away from losing their job and selling their house and moving across the country and getting new schools for their kids and they know it. They knew it before they came here. It’s a reality of the profession, and very few go to any one place and stay there for a career. 

Hail-Storm

January 29th, 2024 at 9:40 AM ^

I worked for a company I truly believed in.  I put in a ton of hours and took abuse from the CEO, because I thought the mission and the business was the right business.  After constantly being questioned on my designs, we ultimately always ended up on my design choices.  

I was layed off without warning right before Christmas.  Plenty of people kept their jobs who hadn't done anything for the company.  The only explanation I got was that it was not a performance based decision. I say, take care of you and your true family.

Brandon broke a lot of the trust that Michigan is a special place to work by firing people who had sacrificed better jobs to stay at Michigan. His hit list Fridays or whatever really showed that despite Michigan being special, it is still run like a business. I don't think less of anyone who makes a better choice for themselves.  If Michigan can't bring in the best, that is on Michigan. 

Focus on bringing in strong people and recognizing and keeping people is key.  

 

stephenrjking

January 29th, 2024 at 10:26 AM ^

Harbaugh had a meh year in 2019 and got hit with a perfect storm of bad in 2020 and huge chunks of the fan base completely turned on him. I was at the forefront and I was not alone. Many others were unsure but were, at best, indifferent to whether he stayed. 

It’s a tough business. And these guys know it, and have always known it. They knew it before they came here. If you want to grow a career in coaching, you assume you’re not going to stay long-term. 

Hail-Storm

January 29th, 2024 at 11:26 AM ^

Coaching is very much a "what have you done for me lately" job, but I don't think it's a good approach.  Many were willing to let Beilein and Harbaugh go right before they made some of the best runs in Michigan history.  I think Beilein had to deal with it twice.  

I've seen Texas, Nebraska, Wisconsin, and other programs make a quick decision on a coach who hasn't won at the level they should, only to drop deep into lows in their program histories.  Lloyd Carr was a constant 3 loss coach who couldn't get it done, until he won it all in 98. 

I think Michigan AD should be the calm to work through these types of times where the fan base gets worked up. I was a fan of Howard's hiring and am on the fence on if he gets another year. I think Michigan should always give Michigan Men the benefit of the doubt and the support (money and time) to succeed.  

Ghost of Fritz…

January 29th, 2024 at 9:00 AM ^

Michigan football cannot be reduced to a "place of business."  Any football program that is merely a "place of business" is not going to perform well.  It is a community and brotherhood.   Having or not having Herbert, Elston, or even Minter, would not alter the Chargers' W-L record over the next three years.  JH is so connected, and has such a strong record, that he can hire their equals.  But Sherrone Moore probably cannot. 

I guess if you think of Michigan football as merely a "place of business" then none of this will make sense to you.  But, of course, this is not comparable to the regional sales manager getting a higher paying offer at a different company and taking some sales people with him. 

More to the point, JH himself did not speak of it that way at all.  He spoke of it as a brotherhood, a community bigger than any one individual, a transformational lifelong commitment, etc., etc.  He spoke of the Team, the Team, the Team.  His actions are not compatible with his words. 

If he really followed through on his own words, he would not exit like the regional sales manager, but would exit as one who takes leave from a community in which he remains a member even though not present every day, and in the way that most allows it to thrive going forward.

So much for the Team, the Team, the Team.  JH in recent months; "I will be at Michigan as long as they will have me."  JH a year ago: "I am not going to look at the NFL again."   JH now:  He talked up Moore but has taken several unnecessary steps that significantly steepen the gradient he will face and make success far less likely.  

In short, here we are. with JH taking steps that will undermine Moore's start as he exits stage left.  It really is incompatible with the way he spoke of Michigan football to his players and in public.  And none of it is needed for whatever success he will have with the Chargers.  It is very much 'path of least resistance' and in a way self-centered behavior.  

Instead of defending JH, you should just admit the reality of JH.  He is, and always has been, very much a mixed bag.  Those who find him polarizing and problematic are on very solid ground.  He has huge upsides, but also some very well documented fatal flaws.  You take the bad with the good.  Package deal.  But don't pretend there is no bad side.  There is.  And the downsides are not minor things. 

stephenrjking

January 29th, 2024 at 9:16 AM ^

You are de-contextualizing some of Jim’s statements, particularly about staying, and willfully ignoring the breadth and meaning of others. Indeed, the way he spoke of his love for the players and coaches, and the way they spoke of him, suggests that it’s no surprise that Jim wants to encourage their careers and that it’s no surprise that guys want to follow him. The love and growth Jim brought to the staff that built Sherrone into the next head coach is the love and growth that helped build the coordinator of the NFL’s top defense this year is the love and growth that brings guys to the next level and prepares the guys that succeed them.

Remember Moore’s vociferous post-gamer after Penn State? He loves Harbaugh. The other guys clearly do, too. And not just because Harbaugh pays them; Harbaugh develops them, makes them better, and part of that is sending guys to bigger and better things.

You are taking this personally in a way that is not fair to Harbaugh and his staff. I think the Warde hate in this issue is wrong, too, but I will grant that it is Warde’s job to protect Michigan’s interests in a way it is not Harbaugh’s and so while I disagree with the unfounded assumptions, at least the protection of Michigan’s program matters there.

But the University of Michigan exists to train people for professions that mostly take place outside of the borders of the campus. Developing and elevating players and coaches to succeed after Michigan seems well within the spirit of what the University is supposed to be. 

Um1994

January 29th, 2024 at 9:58 AM ^

I've heard that from Sam Webb and it has been echoed on this board - "S&C coaches aren't critical in the NFL" or at the least aren't very important members of the staff.  Serious question - is that actually true?  Seems to be said by people who argue that Herbert is wrong to leave or would be making a bad decision if he left, but I have no idea if that's actually the case.  Just saw an article about the Steelers S&C coach leaving after 23 years.  They've been a very good team for that time period, no doubt he had an impact.

JonathanE

January 29th, 2024 at 11:50 AM ^

What’s interesting is that strength and conditioning coaches make considerably less money in the NFL than they do in the college ranks. Herbert signed a five-year, $5 million contract with Michigan just last year. Meanwhile, most NFL strength and conditioning coaches make roughly half of Herbert’s salary in Ann Arbor.

 

Take it for what it's worth. I found this in an article about Herbert leaving. 

 

Report: Ben Herbert leaving Michigan to join Jim Harbaugh’s staff in Los Angeles (msn.com)

Blue Vet

January 29th, 2024 at 9:32 AM ^

I posted a variation on this comment after the podcast summary, and I know it will be downvoted. (Some people can't respond with reasons, only downvotes and snark.)

I totally understand bitching at Warde for this fault or that one. And I totally understand disappointment that things aren't sorting themselves out the way we'd hoped when Harbaugh left, like keeping Jay or Herbert

But there's so much negativity, even anger, that it tugs at the enjoyment. It's almost as if we'd lost all those meaningful games. 

Ghost of Fritz…

January 29th, 2024 at 9:39 AM ^

You are highlighting some of the positive aspects of JH.  And, as I clearly said, he has that. 

But you are simply in denial about the other side of the JH coin.  He really does have some serious flaws, and to a level that is atypical.  Why not just admit the obvious?  Many in the fanbase have called him 'weird Jimmy' for good reason.  He is weird.  He has huge upside, but also huge flaws.

I am not really taking this personally. Rather I am looking at it dispassionately, like a person who is not a Michigan fan would.  Same with my analysis of Warde Manuel. 

People who follow CFB intensely, but are not Michigan fans, have seen the Harbaugh flaws.  And if they had any knowledge of Warde Manuel, and more generally how the Michigan AD has been run for decades, they would come to the same conclusions that I have: 'Wow, they really are their own worst enemies over there.'

 

Don

January 29th, 2024 at 2:33 PM ^

It's been the case forever in college football that coaches treat what they do as a business. If you look at the history of the most prominent in coaches in CFB history, the amount of hopping around they do, especially early in their careers, is eye-opening. The vast majority of them are out the door immediately when they get what they think is a better offer, whether it's from a power conference program or an NFL franchise. Obviously, that is their right.

And this professional job-hopping by coaches today is always accompanied by gigantic sums of money being thrown at them. No coach voluntarily leaves one job for another without a substantial increase in salary, even if they'd just signed a five-year contract that made them the highest-paid coach in that staff niche in the entire country.

It's also the case that for whatever amount of time they're at a school, they sing the unique and particular advantages and virtues of that school—football tradition and success, football staff, academic strengths, location and campus life, fan loyalty and alumni support, etc etc—and all for the goal of persuading high school players to commit for (ideally) four years, if not five, to play at that school. If necessary, they'll bash other competing programs as inferior in one way or another.

The language is revealing—high school players don't *agree* to play for a school, they commit to it—and it's long been treated by coaches and fans alike as though they're taking a solemn, duty-bound oath to remain at that school for the entirety of the collegiate careers. Recruits who de-commit are routinely scorned by disappointed fanbases for the perfidy of not remaining loyal to the program they initially committed to.

It's not unusual for coaches to get almost teary-eyed when pushing the virtues of the school they happen to be coaching at, especially if it happens to be their alma mater. Words like "love" and "culture" and "tradition" and "commitment" are regularly trotted out not only for prospective recruits and their families, but for the players already in the program as well.

That loyalty-and-tradition-soaked word cloud dissipates into thin air when a coach gets the offer he was hoping for. Now the operative phrases are "pursuing lifelong goals" and "going to the next level" and "bigger and better things." 

Given all this, it's no wonder that players have gradually come to see the game for what it is—for coaches, college football has always been a cold, hard business where looking out for #1 is the main priority. The vast majority of the stuff the coaches utter during recruiting visits and radio interviews for eager fans is performative marketing baloney that can easily be repurposed for another program or opportunity with a bit of selective editing. The coaches can easily leave the campuses behind, while the players who committed to them have been expected to stay.

At least that's the way it used to be, until the advent of NIL, the portal, and quick eligibility of transfers. As we've seen recently, the havoc that player movement is wreaking on programs even extends to dominant powers like Alabama, and it's understandable that head coaches are frustrated by it.

However, the coaches only have themselves to blame—they've always been the biggest mercenaries in the collegiate football business, and now the players are beginning to assert their interests. I don't think it's good for college football in a variety of ways, but I cannot begrudge the players the desire to even things up, given the reality of the landscape. You can't justify decisions coaches make on the basis of "it's just business" and then be angry that players want to exercise that same right too.

 

pescadero

January 29th, 2024 at 10:15 AM ^

"People are holding the Michigan staff, current and former, to standards that they do not hold themselves, their friends and coworkers, or their own place of business."

 

I'm not paid top 0.1% money, I would never, ever say I love my job, and I would never ever say "I'll stay as long as they have me".

 

People are holding Harbaugh to a different standard - because he personally claimed to hold himself to a different standard. Turns out - it was a lie and he's just like the rest of us.

 

 

 

schreibee

January 29th, 2024 at 1:11 PM ^

Buddy, we are "holding them to a different standard" because none of you give a shit if my business succeeds or fails because of management turnover. 

Assume anyone reading your comments on Mgoblog cares deeply about the success of Michigan football! 

Well, anyone except Buckeye Chuck! He's buckeye chuckling about all this!

schreibee

January 29th, 2024 at 1:22 PM ^

Yes but - there is a great deal of (probably not well informed) debate about how much a college S&C coach can do at the NFL level. 

We have been told on this site and others that while Herbert played an outsized role in the recent success of Michigan football, his impact would be tangential at best in an environment where the athletes retain & listen to their own trainers. 

We have also been informed that he's already among the, if not the, highest paid at his position in the college ranks. So we inevitably wonder what would motivate someone to take what has been described to us as a lesser position for possibly less money?!

These are fair things to ponder when surveying the future of Michigan football post-Harbaugh!

MGoGoGo

January 29th, 2024 at 10:57 AM ^

Regarding the fact that S&C isn't as important at the pro level, one thing that we know about Harbaugh is that he is willing to innovate and go against convention. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Harbaugh is planning for Herbert to lead an S&C program for the Chargers that is beyond the typical NFL S&C program.  

ST3

January 29th, 2024 at 11:36 AM ^

People saying S&C isn’t as important at the NFL level were just trying to convince themselves that Herbert would stay. We’re still talking about football. My San Fran friend noted with awe how huge Detroit’s offensive linemen are. You don’t peak at age 22 and maintain for the next decade. 
In fact, S&C is more important in the NFL. In college, you have classes and studying, and you’re limited to 20 hours per week of athletics. In the NFL, football is your job.

umfan83

January 29th, 2024 at 2:03 PM ^

Trying not to rush to overreaction without letting things play out but my first thought is that it doesn't sit right with me either.  I was super supportive of JH leaving if that's what he wanted to do, and Minter leaving because I know his goal was always the NFL but this seems like a bridge too far.  How many OSU assistants did Urban swipe when he took the Jaguars job?

We'll see how it plays out but the rumors floating around about players not being thrilled at this move has me worried.