The Cade/JJ debate, video for the case for each
Stephen Osentoski gives his case for each QB. The video following is highlights of each player from 2021. Watching the highlights of each will refresh the memory of their play.
The case for Cade McNamara:
Cade McNamara highlights from 2021:
The case for JJ McCarthy:
JJ McCarthy highlights from 2021:
It's a great advantage for Michigan to have two such great QBs. Both are starting caliber. After watching both highlights, I am reminded how good McNamara is at moving the ball. He takes that short release valve throw when needed. And with McCarthy, those laser throws are a very cool! The coaches, and all of us, will see both players in the first two weeks. May the best man win!
Whichever wins, I don't think this competition in the first two weeks is about picking a full time QB. There will still be plenty of platooning going on with them, regardless of who is chosen starter. Maybe this move by the coaches is partly being done to keep thoughts of going to the transfer portal by either player cooled down. But whatever the reason, I hope to see two huge blow outs in those first two games. I hope this move is good for....the team, the team, the team.
One week away from Michigan football, and The Big House! GO BLUE!!!!!
August 28th, 2022 at 6:20 PM ^
If Cade wins, I can see the use in platooning QBs given JJ's ability in the run game. But what is the argument for rotating QBs if JJ wins the job (short of JJ getting out of sorts and needing Cade's steady hand)?
Not trying to diminish Cade and I'd be happy if he won the job. I just don't see the logic of platooning in the latter case.
August 28th, 2022 at 7:13 PM ^
Not sure I'd do it in Jim's shoes, but the argument I could see for continuing to rotate Cade would revolve around JJ's usage as a runner. If you are going to run JJ 5-10 times a game, giving Cade a few series could give JJ needed rest and keep him from wearing down.
Basketball teams rotate point guards this way and no one complains about the starter "losing their rhythm" so I think this could work too.
August 28th, 2022 at 8:13 PM ^
Basketball players don't stand on the sideline for 10 minutes after each drive. QBs get plenty of rest while the D is on the field and while ads are being shoved down our throats after every drive.
August 28th, 2022 at 9:18 PM ^
I'm not sure what informs you here. Good HS and college teams do very little rotation of the point.
August 28th, 2022 at 7:20 PM ^
The only argument I could see would be keeping Cade somewhat fresh.
I love JJ, and if he can pick up his game to the level of leadership/cool-headedness that Cade has displayed time and time again, and ultimately surpasses Cade, then I'd support it.
Regardless, run-threat QBs usually end up taking quite a few dings as the season progresses, and JJ is a twig. And he doesn't seem to shy away from contact whatsoever (not smart unless it's a GW-type run). If JJ were as run heavy as we've used him, I can't help but think he takes a snap or two or series or game off.
Having 2 starter-level QBs is an absolute blessing. Seeing Jim announce the starter schedule is the smartest move for a bevvy of reasons (they get to simulate the full week of game-prep, leadership, in-game performance, post, etc, JJ (or Cade) doesn't have to over-push in the few series where they get on the field as the 1b QB, not-knowing when they will get another snap--I think we saw this with JJ multiple times, he wanted to make the most of it, and made a lot more high-risk decisions to try and "win" the starting spot, etc.)
The old adage "if you have 2 starter QBs, then you don't have 1 starter QB", and that is *generally* the truth--e.g. you're constantly switching them every series precisely because neither are getting the engine to turn over. But if you played a second QB swapping him in when needed/to put the defense on their toes (my guess is they did some analytics try to find the tendencies/keys--also having to make opposing defenses gameplan for either QB just adds to their taks/stress/memory and is a really nice weapon to have), but if you do all that and are successful enough in doing it (JJ moved the chains, had the same TD-INT ratio), and you beat OSU, win the BIG-10 Championship, and go to the CFP, all while platooning in a second QB, well that doesn't sound like "you don't have any QB, etc."
It's an embarassment of riches, and the attitudes of both QBs don't seem to feel entitled to anything at all save just to compete and perform.
Sidenote, the players personalities and attitudes really does seem to have changed the last 2 years or so, I really mean that, the players sound very different in interviews the last few years, a lot smarter, a lot more humble, and a lot hungrier. Not sure if it's just me or what but I like it!
I like this team!
August 28th, 2022 at 7:37 PM ^
I know, there is the danger of a hit like this. This is just awful. I still think this is what changed Dylan McCaffrey, not the broken collar bone. And I agree, JJ is skinny.
August 28th, 2022 at 10:13 PM ^
Wisconsin - all I have to say. Eff them…
August 28th, 2022 at 10:41 PM ^
You’re right. If McCarthy is named the starter, they won’t be bringing in McNamara for the occasional play or series.
August 29th, 2022 at 2:08 AM ^
So the question is -- does JJ still rotate in during Cade's start in game 1? If so, does Cade rotate in during JJ's start? I'm curious to see if they each get a shot as a true starting QB, or if this is a glorified every-other-possession QB battle with an honorary start for each. Personally, I'd like to see a game of each with minimal influence by the other.
August 29th, 2022 at 7:43 AM ^
Braylon Edwards has hypothesized that JJ will be gone if he's not the full-time starter by the Iowa game. Who can say?
One thing I've wondered about is trying to measure the quarterbacks based on two different opponents with varying degrees of talent. If JJ goes stratospheric against his opponent because their defense isn't as good, is that really an objective measure?
Tough decision ahead for the coaches.
August 29th, 2022 at 8:53 AM ^
I just don't see that happening this season because I think JJ will see a lot more game action this season than last season. Harbaugh will make sure JJ is placated enough. However, if Cade sticks around for another season and it looks like Cade will start again next season then I think that threat comes into the picture. My guess is JJ would want a full season as a starter beginning his junior season so he can pile up the data points for showcasing to NFL scouts.
August 29th, 2022 at 11:41 AM ^
I’m going to assume the coaches are going to be aware of the level of defense they are playing against the first 2 weeks, and will asses who the starter according to more than just the final stat line of the 2 QB’s after each game.
August 29th, 2022 at 9:40 AM ^
Gonna be pretty awkward if Cade is a captain and ends up benched
August 28th, 2022 at 6:30 PM ^
1) Any analysis based on last season is pointless
2) Bo can rot in hell, don’t glorify him
August 28th, 2022 at 6:47 PM ^
Yikes
August 28th, 2022 at 6:48 PM ^
The man is dead and buried. Give up the hate.
August 28th, 2022 at 7:57 PM ^
Say what?
August 28th, 2022 at 9:36 PM ^
I'm largely ambivalent about Schembechler at this point but I'd argue the same "he's dead so get over it" applies just as well to the ongoing idolization of him.
August 28th, 2022 at 7:58 PM ^
You need to be banned from this site
August 28th, 2022 at 8:57 PM ^
RC15, fuck you to
August 28th, 2022 at 10:04 PM ^
Nah, RC15 makes a fair point. Even with my username (not sure how to change it), the days for glorifying Bo are long gone. Was he as bad as Paterno or Jim Jordan - we'll probably never know, but he knew, was told, and did nothing - so, imo, doesn't really matter who is worse.
All are bad, all did nothing to protect the vulnerable.
August 28th, 2022 at 11:24 PM ^
I mean, Bo knew about a doctor sexually abusing michigan football players and did nothing about it, according to his son. I don't see how he's any better than paterno or Jordan. I'd agree it's time we stopped glorifying him.
August 28th, 2022 at 11:28 PM ^
I was never really into glorifying coaches in the first place . . . but I do think there was probably a difference between Bo's situation and Paterno's.
We don't know what went down exactly, but we can reasonably assume that Bo and Anderson spoke about the accusations at some point, during which Anderson likely assured him that he was following normal medical procedure. And Bo - like everyone else in the athletic department, apparently - accepted this, because normally people trust in doctors.
Paterno OTOH had zero rational reason not to pull the plug on Sandusky's bogus charity once the complaints started. Sandusky was a football coach. It was never his business to be hanging out with small kids in the shower.
August 29th, 2022 at 7:55 AM ^
Every coach, every executive, every leader: They all know right from wrong. Even those Enron guys. When someone uncovers a scandal in their company, I don't think they can say, "I didn't know that was going on." They're just saying they're too dumb to do their job! And if they really are too dumb, then why are they getting paid millions of dollars to do it? They know what's going on.
August 29th, 2022 at 8:33 AM ^
Go read the report. "Bo probably just trusted him because he was a doctor" is not a reasonable take.
August 29th, 2022 at 9:40 AM ^
wow..... lets take a thread about our two starter level QB's and turn it into a shitfest.
dude, sometimes we all have thoughts that are better left unsaid.
August 28th, 2022 at 6:41 PM ^
I still feel like JJ is ahead. If Cade was ahead, there'd be no reason to start JJ week two, because you can always integrate JJ into the gameplan like last year bc he brings a different element (QB runs/reads, scripted plays/drives/packages, and so forth). If JJ starts, it's harder to include Cade, unless you're just alternating QBs from series to series. It reminds me of an MLB team letting their veteran guy be the "ace" on opening day, despite having a better pitcher on the roster who would definitely be pitching game 1 of a playoff series.
August 29th, 2022 at 4:15 AM ^
This could very well be looking too deep into the situation, but I feel that letting JJ start the second game benefits him while being respectable to all.
1) Cade starts the first game because he earned it from last year and played will enough in camp to keep it. However...
2) JJ is starting against Hawaii..... While the entire OCC is powder puff easy, Hawaii just got smoked by Vanderbilt 63-10. Think about that for a minute.... JJ is going to be starting against a team woefully overmatched.
3) JJ will know what Cade did in the first game. Yes, I know that personal stats don't matter and Jim has stated there are other metrics he will use to evaluate the team and QBs. But in any competition, you always want to go second so you know what the "target" is.
I honestly hope there is very little rotation in either game. Let Cade and JJ have the entire first 3 quarters, then play it out in the 4th as needed. What is expected is that we will be playing the back up extensively at that point. Doesn't mean that will be the case throughout the remainder of the season, but for these "final exams" let each QB have the reins and see what happens.
August 29th, 2022 at 8:40 AM ^
3 quarters would be a disaster in any of the exhibition games. If M isn't up by 4 scores at the half in each of them I'll be stunned.
Warren should she a lot of playing time.
August 29th, 2022 at 8:50 AM ^
I suspect with the announcement that Cade starts week 1 and JJ starts week 2..... there is not a plan to rotate. That would be my guess anyway.
Edit: JH said we would see both QBs in game one..... which would stand to reason we'll see both QBs in game two. I guess its about truly letting each guy claim 'starter'.... i was thinking he would give Cade game one....start to finish, not thinking about getting pulled for a series here and there..... then give JJ game 2, same/same..... but I guess not.
August 28th, 2022 at 7:00 PM ^
We've come such a long way from the Steven Threet Nick Sheridan days. This is such a smart move by Harbaugh.
It's great to be a Michigan Wolverine.
August 28th, 2022 at 10:50 PM ^
The last season where there was this much hype, 2016 (I’d say there was more hype that year than this), we were deciding between Speight or O’Korn. Jim has gotten this program back to where it belongs; and good to see two guys he recruited battling it out
August 29th, 2022 at 9:42 AM ^
Yeah I don't get the people saying it's dumb to start a guy one game and another the 2nd. I'd much rather see each guy get their own game or two so they're actually in a rhythm and you see what they can do
August 28th, 2022 at 7:59 PM ^
My 3-cents on the whole competition - play the best QB as a full-time player after week 2. Just like coach Harbs is doing. But dont rotate except for situational. Such as Cade is the starter, bring in JJ or Orji as run option. If JJ needs a rest bring in Cade as a passing threat, or Orji as run option in heavy package.
Coach Harbs move really has the talking heads abuzz, which takes the pressure off the decision the next 2 games. And allows the players to perform, which is how it should be.
August 28th, 2022 at 9:11 PM ^
Alex Orji isn't near the role of coming in with the 1st stringers. Or even the 2nd stringers. He may never be in that role. Some, including Thunder, are saying he will not be staying at QB, but will end up somewhere like LB. I think he could end up transferring if he wants to play QB.
Platooning worked last year. They made the playoffs, and were very nearly undefeated in the regular season. I personally think Cade McNamara is going to be starter on week 3, and for the rest of the season. He is too good to put at 2nd string. I think this may be a move to keep the idea of transferring out of the picture. JJ McCarthy needs work on being a complete QB, meaning, he needs to take the open short read. He doesn't do it now. He likes longer passing, at least that's how it looks to me. Like Osentoski says in the video, the short passes look boring. They aren't exciting for the fans. But they work. They keeps the chains moving. And they lead to scores. And McNamara is will to take them, and has. If JJ McCarthy ends up transferring because he is not the starter on weeks 3, well, the world will keep turning. Maybe we will see Davis Warren playing then.
This actually is a tight spot for the two QBs, and the coaches, to be in. In most cases this would already have ended up in a transfer.
August 29th, 2022 at 4:40 PM ^
Good point on Orji not being a run option at QB with both JJ & Cade healthy. I was thinking in case of a jumbo package/wildcat alternative only. We're actually in agreement on everything else you wrote. Play the best player at QB, make substitutions as needed to force the defense to see something new, let the process sort itself out. I'm also high on Davis Warren being a viable backup option if/when one of the 2 guys transfers. Trusting in Harbaugh no doubt here. Go Blue
August 28th, 2022 at 8:10 PM ^
As long as it's not Shea
August 29th, 2022 at 1:51 AM ^
Of all the long history of Wolverine football, Shea Patterson is (in 2 years of play):
#8 in completions
#7 in passing yards
#6 in passing touchdowns
August 29th, 2022 at 2:57 AM ^
Where did he rank in ball protection / security?
August 29th, 2022 at 5:57 AM ^
Scratch.
August 29th, 2022 at 12:24 PM ^
And balled out vs MSU. The last U-M QB who won more than one game in their career vs MSU is Henne.
August 28th, 2022 at 8:17 PM ^
If anyone knows how fragile a quarterback's psyche can be, it's Jim Harbaugh. How he doesn't recognize that this is a recipe for disaster is beyond me. Coach toyed with Wilton Speight's psyche and confidence with a "competition" with John O'Korn in 2017 when Speight should have been the unquestioned starter and gotten all the reps in camp. Speight spoke of this after transferring. After playing quite hurt in the OSU game, and then the FSU bowl game, he felt that he had proven himself in every metric. And, we'd seen how bad O'Korn was (Week 11, Indiana 2016). Even Pep Hamilton in Amazon docu-series stated that he preferred to identify THE guy at the beginning of camp and then get him prepped for the season.
This indecisiveness by Coach Harbaugh can not only derail the season, but divide the team. The PLAYERS have voted who they think the starter should be. If JJ is given the starter position, then Harbaugh has put the team's leader on the bench. How do you think that can affect a team's psyche? Further, after getting a start, what if JJ isn't given the job, does he happily go back to a few series a game? If not, what does that do to team morale?
And, suppose JJ is given the job, will he be benched if he struggles? He would be a first year starter, and aside from Trevor Lawrence and Jameis Winston, I don't recall a first year starter going undefeated. And while I know JJ is a 5* recruit, I don't think anyone would argue that he is comparable to Winston or Lawrence. They were the #1 qb recruits in their respective classes, while JJ was the 5th ranked qb in his class. So, if he struggles at Iowa, is he benched, or does the team just take the loss?
This move seems to me as a ploy by Harbaugh to hedge against a transfer by placating JJ with a start. Cade has earned, deserves to exhibit his improvement over a full season. Cade was a first year starter last year whose only seasoned receiver was lost for the season in the first half of the first game. If JJ transfers, so be it. If JJ is smart, he'll just redshirt and see how well Cade does this year. If Cade makes a Burrow/Pickett jump, then he'll be off to the NFL, and JJ is the anointed starter. If Cade comes back next year, JJ can transfer in January and still have 3 years eligibility. There are risks all around, but Coach Harbaugh is making the biggest risk... the season!
August 28th, 2022 at 8:40 PM ^
A player as talented as JJ doesn’t redshirt. We’ll be lucky if he comes back for a 4th year instead of declaring for the draft.
August 28th, 2022 at 8:54 PM ^
Plenty of talented quarterbacks redshirt - CJ Stroud redshirted. If Cade re-wins his job, as I expect, then JJ's choices are to redshirt and retain 3 years eligibility, transfer immediately and still retain 3 years eligibility (either way he doesn't play this year), or stick with some useless packages and lose a year of eligibility. JJ really gains nothing from running intermittent packages, and transferring immediately does nothing for him. The smart move is to redshirt here and see if the job opens due to graduation after the season.
August 28th, 2022 at 9:19 PM ^
This would have already been a transfer if it had happened at another team. Look at Quinn Ewers, and Joe Burrow. Quinn Ewers may even end up transferring out of Texas too, with Arch Manning coming in next year. Jim Harbaugh may be trying to keep the plates spinning with this move. I don't know what he will do next year if Cade McNamara returns. I would have already resolved it in my mind that McCarthy may ultimately leave if I was dealing with this. And I would be thinking about a contingency plan, so I could hit the ground running when/if it happened.
August 28th, 2022 at 9:47 PM ^
If Ewers plays really well this year (Big 12 POY), does Manning de-commit? You wouldn't think that he'd be content sitting his freshman season after the All World hype and name recognition that he has. Imagine if Ewers balls out this year and Manning de-commits. That would be high drama in college football!
August 28th, 2022 at 10:57 PM ^
I know Ewers has beautiful accuracy. But he has kind of a slow delivery. I don't know if he will be POTY. But yeah, if he does have a fantastic year, then maybe Manning would de-commit. But I don't know if that's coming for Ewers. I'd bet he's more likely to transfer next season. Which would be tough for him, having to learn yet another system. But who knows. That's so far off. But I would feel sorry for the guy if he does transfer again.
August 28th, 2022 at 10:24 PM ^
Ahh yes. The Michigan bump in full effect. I have high hopes for JJ but thoughts of him being an early entrant and UM being "lucky" if he is here 4 years, are hilarious at this point. The kid has literally won nothing (not even a starting spot...yet) and you wanna crown him.
August 28th, 2022 at 8:57 PM ^
As it often does, user name checks out here.
August 28th, 2022 at 9:12 PM ^
No nervousness with me, just playing out the scenarios. How do you see this playing out? JJ wins the job, and leads Michigan to the Big Ten Championship this year? No, Cade can do that. So, JJ has to top that by winning the job and shows that he IS Winston/Lawrence and leads Michigan to the National Title this year? What say you... other than tired internet tropes?