B1G coaches "urge action" from Tony Petitti
Thought this was an interesting article that was recently published.
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38798293/big-ten-coach…
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:55 AM ^
Really? Do you think James Franklin is going to make to public statement about this issue? Will it be before or after the Michigan @ Penn State game this year? What do you think he'll say? If you were him, what would you say, and when would you say it? These are sincere questions. I'm not trying to be aggressive.
Petitti gains nothing by making a premature statement before the NCAA investigation is complete. The reality is that the B1G is feckless during a pending investigation. Day knows this, so he's using Thamel as his mouthpiece to fool his own fanbase into retaining him after Ohio State gets exposed, yet again, later this year.
Pathetic. Ohio State used to be scared of no one.
November 2nd, 2023 at 1:03 AM ^
Yep, none of the other schools will go on record with anything because they know there is nothing actually concrete. If there was, we'd know it by now.
November 2nd, 2023 at 5:06 AM ^
Uh, it is pretty concrete that we had a coach breaking the rules. The extent to which we should be punished is really the only question. I vote for only a show cause to Stallions, but I suspect my vote doesn’t count.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:52 AM ^
He wasn’t a coach. Educate yourself. Fuck.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:09 AM ^
He was an employee. He doesn't have to be a coach for it to matter.
November 2nd, 2023 at 11:17 AM ^
Yes, but that impacts the severity of the infraction/punishment.
A low-level employee managing a rogue & amateurish scouting operation is one thing. A high level coach (coordinator or even HC) doing it is far worse.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:28 AM ^
I mean this sincerely...please explain what rules he broke (excluding the potential CMU issue). Seriously.
1. Sign stealing is legal.
2. The ban on sideline recording is in your own games.
3. Ban on in person scouting refers to athletics personnel (which is a specific defined term and actually excludes interns)
4. 3P scouting services (i.e. vendors/contractors) are legal.
If Stallions was at the CMU-MSU game, he's toast due to #3.
Other than that, this is all a PR offensive by Ryan Day, as near as I can tell.
And a good one, I will concede. I especially admire the part where he got people to focus on sign "stealing" (rather than signals intelligence, impressive selling of pejorative terminology to frame the issue), and whipped up a frenzy around something that's not actually against the rules as if it is an existential threat to the integrity of the sport.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:14 AM ^
That is a superb summary. Superb because it is the correct understanding of the NCAA rules, and also is succinct and very easy to understand.
Now...when is Warde Manuel going to have surrogates get these basic truths out into the media-sphere?
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:39 AM ^
Literally nobody outside of this blog is reading the rules in such a way that makes what Stallions did not a violation. According to reports that isn't even the defense Michigan has elected. The idea that Stallions just found some loophole because he's actually brilliant is just a fever dream on this blog
November 2nd, 2023 at 10:57 AM ^
regardless whether CS found a "loophole" by his own brilliance or by dumb luck (I expect the latter), it is very relevant that there is that "loophole" and Michigan may not have violated the bylaws as written
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:09 PM ^
Why would they? It turns the heat down on a juicy story.
November 2nd, 2023 at 11:16 AM ^
Low level analyst, not a coach.
November 2nd, 2023 at 6:03 AM ^
Maybe. But the elephant in the room is what the rest of the staff drew from Stalions’s data and how they applied it. And two very large herds of angry animals on both sides have gone out of their way to avoid this question for several weeks now. We don’t KNOW. That’s the investigation part. One of the herds is getting up a lynch mob out there, though, I can tell you that. I don’t think that Michigan’s silence serves us.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:31 AM ^
Amen!! It appears pretty clear that Stalions was a rogue actor. No way in hell that the CMU stunt, if true, was authorized (how could three CMU coaches that would have known him not noticed?) If he was Michigan’s designated sign stealing “guru” (remember, sign stealing, per se, is not violating any rule that AFAIK has been cited anywhere) how certain is it that anyone would know that his primary sources included data gathered through prohibited, advance scouting tapes versus “legal” TV or all 22 copies or just watching in-game. Isn’t that why players watch film?
Remember, all that we THINK we KNOW is coming from a bunch of selectively leaked information from anonymous sources, many/most/all of which are well served by the firestorm fed by media that values clicks and impressions over journalistic integrity, all of which has been precipitated by reports of an unknown third-party investigative firm with an unidentified “client.”
You can draw pretty precise parallels to the Russian Collusion scandal that tied up all FOUR YEARS of the Trump presidency down to the individual component players (BTW, not to defend Trump but to point out how these things have legs.). Anyone believe that the NCAA wouldn’t love to have Harbaugh out of its hair?
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:22 AM ^
They won't go on record because they know that their program almost certainly has things going on that they either do or don't know about that are against NCAA rules or operating in the grey area that Stalions was operating in.
November 2nd, 2023 at 1:31 AM ^
James Franklin isn't going to say anything significant in public (pre- or post-Michigan game). He's well .... a beat-around-the-bush type when he speaks publicly.
Bret Bielema though? I can easily imagine that. He's enough of a loose cannon, doesn't really give a damn, perhaps still pissed about the game a year ago.
A few other coaches I could imagine doing that too. But Bielema would by far be #1 on my list.
I agree that "Petitti gains nothing by making a premature statement before the NCAA investigation is complete." But my intuition (which, of course, doesn't have a 100% track record) is that Thamel's story is directionally correct. Other coaches aren't happy at all. Which means an out-of-control wildfire, some schools publicly calling out the commish & conference, is on the table.
November 2nd, 2023 at 3:08 AM ^
I'm not sure that I see a statement by Bret Bielema meaning a whole lot here. It creates another day's clicks, sure, but that's probably about it. He's hardly some grand old man of Big Ten football whose moral force is going to make it hard for the conference not to act.
Also, and I may be giving the conference too much credit here, but do they really want to set a precedent for complaining your rival out of a championship? Does anyone want a conference in which you hire a PI to turn up your opponent's dirt (real or imagined) and then whine them off the field? Will OSU and USC survive in such an environment?
Finally--just to be clear--I know that you're not trolling and appreciate your perspective.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:10 AM ^
I don’t think an out of control wildfire is what gets Michigan. I think the desire to prevent one could result in action from the BIG could be what does.
The thing is, though, taking action against Michigan would not kill what is going on right now. This isn’t really about Michigan, it is about “outrage.” If they removed Michigan from the equation the outrage is going to move somewhere else. Taking action against UM doesn’t put out this fire, it would be like pouring water on the grill to kill the flames but then closing it again and turning the heat up all the way.
The BIG may think all they have to do is take “action” against Michigan and all is well. The truth is the opposite. If they act at this moment all hell is going to break loose in every direction.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:31 AM ^
The Big Ten doesn’t want to set a precedent of punishment before due process. They know that every school, including Northwestern, is not completely clean. If they punish Michigan prematurely, I’m sure that a) Michigan will sue the crap out of them and b) Michigan would be happy to release all the dirt they have on everyone else and see what the Big Ten does with the new precedent they have set.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:35 AM ^
Its not just Thamel reporting it. The Big Ten bylaws allow for Petitti to act without the NCAA investigation being completed. If the rest of the big ten is unanimous against Michigan that they want them banned from the championship game this year there is a good chance it happens. I don't know why people can't wrap their heads around this being a very serious issue
November 2nd, 2023 at 11:48 AM ^
There is no investigation report. The B1G doesn't even have an investigation ongoing. Michigan has not been allowed to respond to any of the allegations, by NCAA rule. The B1G is just going to kangaroo court this without any thought as to what kind of precedent it sets? I highly doubt it, but I expect nothing less from MGoBlog's longest standing concern troll.
Also everything I've heard on this Big Ten bylaw says they can only MITIGATE a penalty or fine, not create their own, but there is no way I'm spending part of my day reading B1G bylaws.
November 2nd, 2023 at 1:04 AM ^
I, for one, appreciate the outside perspective.
If the story is even remotely accurate, there's probably not an off-ramp at all. The quotes being attributed are incendiary. They read like they were written by fans, as I would have thought that most coaches know better. (And, again, if you knew this was happening, use it to your advantage. And if you didn't know it was happening, why not? Nobody noticed that Michigan "always seemed to be able to sniff out the play call?"). If knowing a priori if it's a pass or a run (as opposed to reading keys) is such an inherent advantage -- anybody remember Michigan struggling mightily against RPO teams?
Members of this site have an advantage over most fans, in that we have a ton of analytical work freely available here. If Michigan really knew every play call, and that allowed them to run the perfect defense, the RPS scores would be insanely positive -- they're not. Hell, each game gets a podcast, two UFRs that must take 8+ hours each to do, a segment on WTKA, and an MGoRadio segment… but nobody noticed? Brian's a "rubbin's racin'" guy; if he thought Michigan knew the signs he'd be calling Hosannas from on high.
I guess I figured that coaches would have access to much more information than we do as fans, which is why you get quotes from Deion Sanders -- much as I hate to give him attention -- saying that you can have their whole game plan but it doesn't do you any good if you can't stop it.
Michigan's best option would seem to be to continue to win games by 24+ points with Connor Stalions off the field and his username revoked.
November 2nd, 2023 at 1:04 AM ^
Won't read that ESPN article. But the Big Ten will likely do nothing. This is an NCAA issue. At most, they could issue a statement about believing in "fair play" yada, yada. All the Big Ten coaches know that they are getting their tales kicked by a better team. It has nothing to do with sign stealing (which they also do) or in person scouting - which they probably also do. Michigan simply has better coaching and players than most of the big ten. Funny that other coaches around the country have said this is a nothing burger, but "some" big ten coach are calling for "action."
November 2nd, 2023 at 1:05 AM ^
It feels inevitable: some of these coaches are going to go public, put their names on their statements.
The heck they will. First and foremost, they don't have the guts to do it. Second, they know it's actually crap. Heck, even Urban Meyer is out there saying he doesn't believe the accuracy of the reporting on this because reporters are... wait for it... unreliable.
November 2nd, 2023 at 1:12 AM ^
Good God, now Urban Meyer is on Michigan's side?
The collection of people standing up for Michigan at this point is downright embarrassing.
November 2nd, 2023 at 1:10 AM ^
This is approaching dangerous territory for the conference. Michigan is one of the conference’s most valuable brands. If they fuck with it they risk pushing Michigan out.
November 2nd, 2023 at 5:12 AM ^
ESPN would be leading the Michigan to the SEC storyline in response to action from the Big Ten. They would definitely put up money to help make it happen, not just stories and editorials. It's a dream scenario for them.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:49 AM ^
Don't sleep on this comment. Not only could there be a huge lawsuit...I mean the reputational and financial damage I could argue $100M to $1B would be appropriate. Then, I guarantee michigan would push to leave and head to the sec and the networks, espn, everyone would be all for it.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:29 AM ^
10 years ago I would've said this was blasphemy "leaving the BIG10". But now, does it really matter? The "conferences" are no longer regionally based and, at least IMHO, have lost generally all semblance of tradition so... who cares what conference you're in now?
November 2nd, 2023 at 1:29 AM ^
Lol, no. Michigan hasn’t even been given a notice of allegations yet to even respond to.
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:32 AM ^
Keep dreaming, “objective” fan of a mediocre team. It will keep you warm at night after another lackluster season.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:26 AM ^
UM just has to beat PSU and OSU. Those coaches are not going to say anything. These articles are just spewing stuff. Sign stealing is not even illegal. They are talking about a technicality here.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:42 AM ^
Things change if coaches go public, but that has not happened yet. All that's happened in this story when it comes to coaches is they bitch about it while hiding behind anonymity.
When coaches have been asked publically about, they have either downplayed the issue (Rhule, Deion, etc.), or they've just sort of played it off/didn't comment (Walters, Day, etc.).
Ryan Day can continue to hide behind being anonymous and having these stories continue to leak out to try and keep the story prominent to pressure the B1G. That doesn't change the fact that the NCAA hasn't provided Michigan with an NOA yet. Or that the B1G is unlikely to act based on media stories (Thamel states that in his article).
If Ryan Day or James Franklin want to come out publically and say all this stuff, more power to them. I hope they do it prior to when Michigan plays them, otherwise it's just continued bitch behavior
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:20 AM ^
some of these coaches are going to go public, put their names on their statements.
There is zero chance this happens. These coaches are loving making dramatic statements behind the cover of anonymity. Going public would make them look soft af and open them up to people trying to investigate them. There’s a reason the coaches who have spoken publicly about it have been so neutral on the matter
November 2nd, 2023 at 10:15 AM ^
Meh, I don't really think there will be an 'off ramp'. The leaks will slow down, investigations will continue well into the offseason, people broadly will forget about it for a while, and the investigation(s) will reach a conclusion months and months from now. It'll just quiet down slowly
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:20 AM ^
Lame. Sadly for them, it won’t stop the ass kicking from coming.
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:21 AM ^
What a bunch of whiners.
Well, the beatings will continue until morale improves.
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:59 AM ^
If the B1G doesn't do anything they'll refuse to play us.
This will not end well for us.
November 2nd, 2023 at 1:08 AM ^
So you think PSU and OSU are just gonna blow their playoff chances by forfeiting?
November 2nd, 2023 at 1:13 AM ^
Sure, that makes a lot more sense than changing their signs. "I'm taking my ball and I'm going home!"
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:24 AM ^
Not to mention what PSU is going to make on ticket sales alone.
November 2nd, 2023 at 11:24 AM ^
Then they'll have to pay the networks for breach of contract if they do.
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:22 AM ^
Real Head Coaches of the B10. Did someone flip a table? Did Sciano do something obscene but just brush it off by saying "It's a Jersey thing"? Did someone finally call out Day for his clear dye (and chest hair perm) job?
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:24 AM ^
TL;DR: Ryan Day and friends are mad about sign stealing, and Pete Thamel thinks that M's improvement the last three years is due to sign stealing, rather than a Sherrone Moore Award offensive line and the best RB depth in America.
There's literally no other actual information in this article. Pete Thamel is a hack.
November 2nd, 2023 at 1:07 AM ^
When are we putting thamel into the trash bin of history where Rosenberg and the freep presently reside?
November 2nd, 2023 at 6:48 AM ^
There is another piece of information hidden in this article--complaining coaches are too stupid or lazy to change their signs.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:20 AM ^
Perhaps Michigan's O knew when the opposing D’s play call was to not tackle the RB. That was something OSU did to perfection.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:41 AM ^
Its not just Thamel reporting it