OT sorta: California to debate banning tackle football for 12 and under
As it is said, what happens in CA tends to spread to the rest of the country. There is no doubt that tackle football is inherently bad for one’s health, but should politicians make this decision for us?
Heightened concern over concussions and the growing popularity of flag football are driving the effort to impose the ban, which opponents say would take away the ability for parents to decide their children’s activities, put California youth players behind those in other states and cut off some children from a source of exercise and an important after-school activity.
But advocates say the bill will protect kids from the risk of brain damage, which studies have shown increases the longer a person plays tackle football. And they note children can still enjoy the sport through flag football, which is becoming more popular and even has support from the NFL.
January 11th, 2024 at 7:43 AM ^
This is probably a good idea to be honest. Tackling is not that hard to learn at more developed age and kids 12 and under are probably better off not being subjected to the harm at that important developmental stage. That includes the head and neck area.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:03 AM ^
Yeah, I think whether this is "overreach" depends a lot on where they draw that age cutoff line. 12 is very reasonable, IMO. I don't think it will meaningfully impact the sport; Michigan didn't just win the dang national championship because of tackling lessons that Mike Sainristil got at age 11.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:47 AM ^
Based on his performance in the National Championship (or "Natty" as us more up-to-date posters like to call it) I'd say that Mike Sainristil was already the conductor of tackling lessons by the time he was 11 years old.
January 11th, 2024 at 10:18 AM ^
Hell we've been developing guys like Ojabo who never played until high school.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:16 AM ^
I tend to agree. I also wonder if this will increase football participation? The fear of hitting and being tackled isn't trivial and if kids can learn the game absent that... maybe that kinetic energy for some individuals could be overcome?
January 11th, 2024 at 9:21 AM ^
I started playing tackle football at 12. I immediately fell in love with the contact and became a very good open field tackler. I think 12 is the perfect age because tackle football helped me not be a little shit, have me that outlet at the right age
January 11th, 2024 at 9:31 AM ^
I agree with this completely. We have three sons (7,8 and 12) and we let them all know they could not play tackle football until HS. They all play flag football and I coach their teams. It is a lot of fun, keeps them in great shape and it is very competitive. The NFL actually sponsors our League.
We came to this decision a few years ago when I heard an interview with Chris Hutchinson (Aidan’s Dad, former UM All-American and Emergency Room Doctor). He recommended not playing tackle football until HS. I thought for those hard core football 🏈 fans with sons (such as myself) this was a good compromise and I think it makes sense.
When old guys repeat the notion that “the only reason people watch football is for the crushing hits,” I disagree with them vehemently. That may have been true back in the 70’s, but my kids love it for the amazing athleticism and strategy that comes with today’s game.
There is a pretty strong tackle football culture in our school district, so this is somewhat tough for us to enforce, but I think it’s worth it. If my sons are good enough athletes, they’ll have a place on the HS team whether or not they played 4th grade tackle.
January 11th, 2024 at 10:04 AM ^
We did the same with my son and I'm actually coaching too, it is a lot of fun. That said, I'm not sure how much it really translates to tackle football later though. It's not really the tackling, which flag pulling does a reasonably good job of replacing, it's the lack of blocking, or any contact for that matter, that fundamentally changes the game. For us it doesn't matter, mom doesn't want him to play tackle football, ever (TBH, I'm not crazy about the idea either), but I can see a lot of frustrated coaches who get kids who only played flag up to HS or junior high, trying to unteach bad habits.
January 11th, 2024 at 11:04 AM ^
Any word if they’ll also ban the mandatory football participation requirement for all youth 12 or younger as well?
/s
January 11th, 2024 at 11:51 AM ^
Lawrence Taylor for example didn’t play organized football until the 11th grade and is the best defensive player in NFL history
January 11th, 2024 at 1:18 PM ^
To me it's not about guys like LT tho - some 95% of HS football players don't play past HS. It's about getting to play this amazing game IN HS. Honestly, there should be more IM football at college and club football after HS for 18-25 year olds. I think it'd give a lotta young guys that outlet and let them keep loving this game.
But youth football, while fun, is probably not worth the health risks.
January 11th, 2024 at 7:47 AM ^
Good idea but this will NEVER happen in the south …
January 11th, 2024 at 7:54 AM ^
I think you're correct.
OP wrote: "... what happens in CA tends to spread to the rest of the country."
Given how politics work these days, I think it's equally likely that the Deep South would require participation in elementary school tackle football. :)
This seems like yet another reason that we should enjoy UM's championship run. If you squint, it's not hard to see a reduced recruiting base (and increased structural disadvantage) in the Upper Midwest because of injury concerns. Statistically, it's already happening.
January 11th, 2024 at 11:51 AM ^
The talent reduction is eventually going to hit the NFL to an extent that the sport will eventually evolve to meet the requirements of other states. I'm not saying it will be full on flag football eventually, but it is going to move in a direction that looks like this
January 11th, 2024 at 3:15 PM ^
So it's basketballll with frills?
January 11th, 2024 at 6:02 PM ^
Sorry, Alex, going to have to go back to the "basketball on grass" phrasing after all.
January 11th, 2024 at 7:55 AM ^
Insofar as you’re talking about political banning, I would agree, but in terms of long term arc of the sport I don’t think that’s accurate. Flag is absolutely way more popular with younger kids down here than tackle at this point. To the point where it’s harder than you would expect to even find youth tackle football organizations (whereas flag is everywhere).
January 11th, 2024 at 8:12 AM ^
I live outside Atlanta and youth tackle is far more popular. Are you outside the perimeter on the north side? That's the more California type crowd that most would expect to prefer flag.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:19 AM ^
If its banned everywhere else then they don't need to ban in the south, you just won't be able to find it.
Flag football can confidentally advertise (and be accepted to advertise) everywhere whereas tackle will have some issues.
Network effect, after 50%+ play flag, tackle may fall off quickly.
That 50%+ may take 30 years, but lets watch and observe.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:57 AM ^
Maybe not never...but unfortunately it will probably only happen if a high-profile kid, or the son of someone of prominence, gets a TBI.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:23 AM ^
Dumb idea if you don’t want your kid to play tackle football then don’t. But implementing boundaries that individuals can easily set themselves is overreaching and reckless form of policy making. This is a pure free choice sport.
Perhaps aggressive and better education teaching families that really push their kids into these sports about the risks of contact sports would be fair compromise.
January 11th, 2024 at 12:50 PM ^
Yeah parents should get the final say when it’s things I like, like football. But parents shouldn’t have any say when it’s things I don’t like, like which books kids read or any medical decisions.
January 11th, 2024 at 4:52 PM ^
A lot of kids need to be protected from their shitty, dumbass parents though.
January 11th, 2024 at 7:49 AM ^
I think this is a good idea. I don't know who else will make the decision if politicians don't. I guess parents can make that call today and we have seen numbers in the past in this site on decline in number of students playing Football. But I am not for or against politicians making some decisions sometimes.
January 11th, 2024 at 7:58 AM ^
we have seen numbers in the past in this site on decline in number of students playing Football
Is that accurate for football, or just tackle football? I ask because flag football has exploded in popularity to the point where I would absolutely expect that more kids play football - flag and tackle combined - than ever did previously when it was (basically) just tackle.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:24 AM ^
It may be just tackle Football. This was a thread a while ago. I think it was in relation to Lacrosse.
January 11th, 2024 at 1:18 PM ^
Tackle football numbers seem to be in decline. Many of the High Schools in West Michigan have see. A decrease in numbers and some of the schools have switched to an 8 man league or drop the team all together.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:20 AM ^
My kid was in an under 12 tackle league this fall. A teammate got knocked out last play of a game. Like bad. His dad said he got the wind knocked out of him and was fine. I did not like that. I imagine that mentality doesn't really go away once the kid is 12 though.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:08 AM ^
That’s awful.
it’s also concerning that I’ve seen some pretty significant backsliding in the NFL and college game when it comes to concussions. For example, TJ Watt. A few weeks ago he got his head hit on a play, got up, shaking his head, and instead of him being thoroughly checked out, they did nonsense like putting a shaded visor on him, and pretending it was something else. After the game, they finally realized he had a concussion. He should’ve been pulled right away. There was another game a week or two ago, where a QB hit his head, and then the sideline reporter said, oh, he’s OK ; the trainers had him run in a straight line and he’s good. Does that sound like a neurological test?
Concussions are brain injuries. The very least we can do is significantly reduce the chances middle schoolers and younger get them.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:00 AM ^
There are many areas/examples where we ALL need the community to step in and save us from ourselves. We didn't all start wearing seatbelts because we are wise and cautious.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:38 AM ^
Yes. It’s better if politicians make all the decisions, like mommy and daddy did before them. They’re the best people and it makes me very secure knowing I don’t have to worry about taking responsibility, especially when it comes to my kids.
January 11th, 2024 at 10:29 AM ^
Get what you're saying, but it becomes a more difficult question when you consider that not all kids have parents willing and able to take those responsibilities.
January 11th, 2024 at 12:00 PM ^
yeah that damn Teddy Roosevelt should've never meddled in football, we should still have 5 or 6 players die on the field every season like God intended
January 11th, 2024 at 12:51 PM ^
Yeah definitely don’t want politicians deciding who plays football. But it’s okay for them to decide what books a kid reads.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:47 AM ^
there’s hardly a single decision that politicians ever made that helped the common man.
politicians make decisions that help them stay in office and become multi-millionaires. the rest is posturing and pandering
January 11th, 2024 at 11:53 AM ^
Yup, you’re right. Like seatbelt & helmet laws, or removing lead from gasoline, paint, etc.
How selfish of them. They’re far from perfect but give me a break.
January 11th, 2024 at 7:52 AM ^
Even Coach Harbaugh has said he doesn't think kids should play football until that age. They can play other sports (especially soccer and wrestling) to develop their athleticism.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:19 AM ^
Yeah, my kid (10) is playing flag football and soccer right now. I've told him he can play tackle in 8th grade if he still wants to try. Right now it's about developing coordination and avoiding the buildup of injuries.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:42 AM ^
Some of our kids absolutely love football. My 10 year old sleeps with a football like it's a stuffed animal and checked his weight regularly to be sure he was able to play with pads as soon as he was able to. All his friends in school play and the parents get to know each other. It's rare for you to see a kid being forced to play.
January 11th, 2024 at 7:54 AM ^
Give them lacrosse sticks.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:13 AM ^
For real. Stop trying to change football and ban things that other families love. Find a different sport.
January 11th, 2024 at 3:16 PM ^
I have a selection of sports I'd like to ban to piss people off. What are the next steps so I can live my dream?
January 12th, 2024 at 4:04 PM ^
Move to California. Where everyone can tell everyone else how to live their lives but aren't free to live their own.
January 11th, 2024 at 7:56 AM ^
do they have data to support this? how many head injuries for kids under 12 playing football?
"But advocates say the bill will protect kids from the risk of brain damage, which studies have shown increases the longer a person plays tackle football"
if this is the basis they are using then they should ban all of football.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:14 AM ^
I do think there should be changes in rules of tackling. There’d be far fewer significant injuries if rugby tackling rules were applied to (American) football.
In also suspect if players weren’t so well armored there would be fewer Ronnie Lott style violent collisions.
January 11th, 2024 at 10:11 AM ^
Remove all the protective cages and bars on the helmet, and you'd see a pretty quick change in how players used their heads as a weapon.
January 11th, 2024 at 1:46 PM ^
It would be significantly more difficult to play defense using rugby-style tackling rules. There would be far more broken tackles. In rugby, there are 15 players on a team and no forward passing, so it's easier for defenders to gang up on the ballcarrier and wrap him up.
That may not be a valid argument against changing the rules, but the nature of this sport would change considerably if it happened.
January 11th, 2024 at 8:15 AM ^
I haven't done a full review, but it's not about countable head -injuries- for young people, it's about repeated hits or "repetitive head impacts."
CNN: It’s not concussions that cause CTE. It’s repeated hits, a study finds
Choosing to play football is an adult choice. College kids should get compensated for playing football, not just pros. High school is a gray area for choice because a person doesn't developmentally become an adult all at once, even though legally it's an on-switch at 18.
January 11th, 2024 at 9:17 AM ^
This. There is enough data on this by now. You don't need to ever get a concussion to have symptoms of, or even full-blown, CTE. Repeated, incessant, sub-concussive hits, hits that snap a brain around in the skull, hits to the body not the head, can also do long-term damage.
The "my son loves it, so back off" argument is hilarious... unfortunately logic is not a required course even at the wonderful, peerless University of Michigan.
Hail. Hail to the Champions. Hail to the sport we love. But also Hail to data, and our health, and doing things intelligently for the sake of our kids.
January 11th, 2024 at 10:00 AM ^
I was about to say wrt: let the parents decide. The vast majority of parents have not looked at the data. Most parents are not doctors and haven’t studied brain trauma. So what qualifies the parents to make all the decisions? Simply because they are parents? Is that fair to the child, who knows even less than the parents?
the politicians aren’t experts either, but at least they are taking their cues from the experts who are advocating for this. The majority of people are idiots. And having a kid doesn’t make you a brain expert. So the argument that parents know more than anyone else is just dumb.