Disturbing story from East Lansing
Just when you think MSU has turned a corner on sexual assaults committed by their football players
https://statenews.com/article/2023/12/student-was-told-to-trust-msu-wit…
December 12th, 2023 at 9:10 AM ^
i'm just gonna say this before things inevitably get out of hand.
dunking on another school for how it handles sexual assault cases is perilous at best. sexual assault is mishandled at just about every campus, including our own. this is not an MSU problem.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:15 AM ^
I think it's good to speak about it. But you're right, we're all in glass houses.
December 12th, 2023 at 11:40 AM ^
True, but I think everyone can admit MSU has an ongoing pattern of these events/allegations which makes them unique.
I say this as a Lansing resident: I do not feel safe letting my daughter go there.
December 12th, 2023 at 4:06 PM ^
To be completely honest, I would not tell anyone alleged to have suffered from SA/SV at the hands of a football player at ANY university to go to university police or even local college town police if other options to report exist. I would attempt to go straight to the state police over those avenues. The more separated the documentation and evidence is from university power structure the better.
University police chiefs report to university presidents. Its foolish to sit on a moral high horse and rely on a "we are better/morally superior" mentality when the fundamental problem is that the school would have a financial interest in protecting a key employee.
December 12th, 2023 at 11:49 AM ^
Right, that it happens everywhere isn't a reason to not talk about it; it's a reason to talk more.
Like, if this is a case where Michigan's house being made of glass is presented as a reason for not throwing rocks at MSU, I'm coming back with a fucking onager and a mountain of quarry rubble because I don't give a shit about protecting corrupt institutions.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:36 PM ^
TIL what an onager is. Surprised I haven't seen that come up in the NY Times crosswords before.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:19 AM ^
That’s a fair point. In retrospect, I agree that my OP commentary above isn’t warranted or needed.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:23 AM ^
Yeah, of all places Michigan should absolutely not be even insinuating anything negative about how another school handles sexual assaults. There's no "winner" or moral superiority in sexual assaults.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:26 AM ^
Agreed. It's a disgusting situation.
No one should try to take a victory lap on it because it happened at a rival school.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:41 AM ^
Sure, this is true. But MSU is so poorly run that they were recently called the "worst-governed public major institution in the country" and were at risk of losing their accreditation. It's a state of Michigan issue at this point
December 12th, 2023 at 9:44 AM ^
I teach juniors and seniors in high school and when they're talking about college choice, it's hard to not think about this stuff. No institution seems to handle it great, and Michigan obviously isn't immune, but god MSU sucks at handling it.
Rachel Denhollander's talked a lot about how lucky she was she drew the right detective and the right prosecutor who both really cared. And that she feels like getting both of those things is like a 1 in 100 shot.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:49 AM ^
It is not only that but East Lansing is frankly a nihilistic place. I do not mean to demean it as an academic institution, MSU has some world class programs. But it largely feels like an immoral community and gives off bad vibes. They need to start over there but they cannot seem to figure out how.
December 12th, 2023 at 10:28 AM ^
Source of quote and link, please.
December 12th, 2023 at 12:36 PM ^
It's the first link when you Google it. https://upnorthlive.com/news/local/michigan-state-university-board-trustees-accreditation-lost-governing-msu-rema-vassar-brianna-scott-william-tierney-higher-learning-commission-education-controversies-faculty-senate-alumni-donations
If you need help using the search function once on that page, just say so here.
December 12th, 2023 at 10:28 AM ^
Apologies for double post!
December 12th, 2023 at 11:31 AM ^
Agree 100%. The whole city of Lansing is a major problem. The school is just a reflection of the city.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:54 AM ^
Sure, but will ESPN spend > 0 seconds airing this story?
December 12th, 2023 at 10:35 AM ^
Sparty fans would like to turn your attention to Paula Lavigne. Throwing a picture of Miles Bridges on your homepage, taking about sexual assault, and he had nothing to do with the article. No, they were not clairvoyant. They were going for clicks and were wrong for it.
December 12th, 2023 at 10:18 AM ^
"sexual assault is mishandled at just about every campus, including our own."
Unfortunately true.
"this is not an MSU problem."
Maybe not unique to MSU, but my God, if there was any university that should have an institutional imperative to NOT fuck up sexual assault cases, you'd think MSU would be it.
December 12th, 2023 at 10:41 AM ^
you would think, but they're more concerned with the cover up vs the actual fix.
December 12th, 2023 at 3:15 PM ^
They're is a very general term. I can assure you that there are a lot of good people at MSU that care as much as anyone about preventing sexual assault and reporting it when it happens.
December 12th, 2023 at 10:27 AM ^
Your message seems to suggest this article shouldn’t be shared which I strongly disagree with. Yes it happens too often and at far too many colleges and high schools. We need more visibility and not less.
December 12th, 2023 at 10:57 AM ^
you can't honestly think i was "suggesting this article shouldn't be shared." you just can't.
December 12th, 2023 at 11:15 AM ^
I concur, but can we at least acknowledge how ludicrous it was for Haller to bemoan safety concerns re sign stealing while seemingly ignoring alleged sexual assault being perpetrated by a member(s) of the AD?
December 12th, 2023 at 11:34 AM ^
This Absolutely IS an MSU problem.
Mark Dantonio buried DOZENS of these complaints as reported by MSU's own employees.
Sure, it happens everywhere, and yes we all need to do better, but they aren't Off the Hook because it happens everywhere.
December 12th, 2023 at 11:55 AM ^
Don't forget:
- Former Ingham County prosecutor who helped cover up a lot of MSU crimes in the 90s/early 2000s went to jail for pandering prostitutes.
- Mel Tucker sexually assaulted a sexual assault survivor.
- Keith Appling and Adriene Payne got away scott free after their victim was intimidated.
- Dean Gupta was forced to resign because he didnt report a professor from the business college inappropriately touching a female at a party full of students.
- MSU health physicist Joseph Hattey admitted to sexually assaulting his dog
- James Kielbaso, a former professor emeritus in the Department of Forestry, was found in 2018 to have made inappropriate comments and unwanted sexual advances toward a student.
- Robert Wiseman, a physiology professor in the College of Osteopathic Medicine, made inappropriate and sexually charged comments or jokes towards at least 6 women.
I'm sure this isn't even a complete list...just the recent ones I remember. There is a culture/pattern here that is unique to MSU. And I say that as someone who has extended family who were Nassar survivors and also has extended family who works in the MSU Sexual Assault center on campus.
December 12th, 2023 at 7:25 PM ^
My wife's cousin's wife was a Professor at msu. The department head of the department she taught in , sexually harassed her many times. She was just awarded a judgement last week. msu dragged the case out for a couple years and just recently settled with her.
GO BLUE
December 12th, 2023 at 12:12 PM ^
I feel this way as well until I remember that I attended MSU and it was like this nearly 20 years ago when I was there. Oh, also, their answer to literally any criticism of their program, whether it's from a Michigan fan or not, is to just default to "Bo knew," something that's never even been proven, so fuck that delusional lot anyway.
December 12th, 2023 at 1:04 PM ^
It's not at all OK at any institution, and throwing back "Well, you guys did it too!" only showcases how widespread and bad the problem is. This goes well beyond institutional rivalries or athletics.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:13 AM ^
Not casting stones at the OP, but maybe someone else's trauma isn't great message board fodder? These threads tend to get weird and gross.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:13 AM ^
Pete Thamel is sure to be tweeting about this very soon. And Tony Pettiti will be extremely concerned about the danger to the physical safety of individual college students.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:14 AM ^
I absolutely hate, hate, hate these kinds of stories. The crime is so disturbing and the predator -- regardless of identity -- should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
At the same time, 99.99999% of the time it's a he-said-she-said situation. I believe that in the vast majority of cases, the victim is telling the truth....in large part because they have to put up with so much sh*t once they report it. However, we have a justice system that's built on the principle that it's better to let 100 guilty people go free than condemn 1 innocent person.
Anyway, this is f*cked up and needs to stop happening. I remember somebody accusing Jabrill of giving her an STD and we were all dismissive. This is obviously on a different level, but sexual violence needs to be treated as such.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:18 AM ^
There is a really good book by Jon Krakauer called Missoula about Montana football and sexual assault. It’s a problem.
December 12th, 2023 at 11:35 AM ^
Excellent book. Absolutely helps place this MSU story in a larger context.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:19 AM ^
1. As a Dad with an mgodaughter these stories make my skin crawl and reinforce the fact that she will be taking some self-defense classes.
2. Not really sure I want to log onto the blog and read about another MSU sexual assault case.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:29 AM ^
I have a 15 month old son and I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how my parents raised me so that I never put myself in a situation were there could even be a remote chance of ambiguity or question about both my, and my partner's consent in these situations. I'm not perfect, but I feel like I navigated high school and college sexual situations appropriately and I give credit to my parents for "raising me right" but I honestly don't know how they did. We never had "the talk" actually or discussed drinking/drugs, but they instilled something in my brain that instructed me on how handle those situations. I'd like to follow that approach so my son learns the same.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:34 AM ^
I think if you're "raised right" your parents don't need to have that conversation with you as they would've had that chat with you, indirectly, many times over the course of your life by just teaching you to be a good human.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:37 AM ^
Fair. Certainly seems like my upbringing was more of a "your responsibility" and "don't do stupid things" type environment. Also, teach by example. My parents are 2 of the best people I know for how they treat others and carry themselves.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:53 AM ^
I think it goes further than this type of specific situation. My parents instilled in me a very strong sense of peril. You know when you are doing something or putting yourself in a situation where only bad can come of it. Your gut always tells you very early. You just need to listen to it. The mistakes made in these type of instances begin well before the actual commission of an actual crime.
December 12th, 2023 at 11:38 AM ^
Sexual situations can be confusing, and kids can't learn by their parents example in this specific situation. There is so much misinformation in movies and porn about what appropriate sexual encounters look like that every parent needs to have this chat with their children.
December 12th, 2023 at 10:08 AM ^
I think it's mostly about respect. Respect others, respect yourself. We need a lot of both. Males tend to be the aggressors in these situations, and teaching them to respect others is indispensable. It's not easy in today's age where everything, including people, is objectified and commodified to be made into a consumable product. Similarly, females tend to be the victims in these situations, and it's critical that they are empowered to respect themselves and not be stigmatized for protecting themselves (which unfortunately they all too often are); but this is a delicate side of the issue, because we must be sure that empowering self-respect and self-defense does not turn into victim-blaming, which is also all too common.
It's an uphill battle to teach respect as the aggregate forces of consumer culture are arrayed against it, but it's all the more important for that very reason.
December 12th, 2023 at 10:47 AM ^
You start by teaching your child to respect other people's bodies and boundaries and letting him have some control over his body. He doesn't get to touch (hug, poke) other kids' without their permission and he gets to decide who touches him (within reasonable limits) For example, I ask my grandkids for a hug but if they're not feeling it in the moment, I don't force it. Drinking and drugs talk can start early too. We saw the results of a drunk driver on a stop sign when my daughter was 6- I explained in simple language what alcohol does to one's brain (and thus driving) and she said "Oh, like Uncle X ?" They understand SO much more than we think they do. You don't (and shouldn't) wait for an awkward, stilted talk when they're adolescents. And as you pointed out in regards to your parents-- modeling is ultra important, and I bet you're already doing that.
December 12th, 2023 at 10:48 AM ^
Same here, but I have a son whom is 18 now and you need to have regular talks with him as well as just instilling respect.
It starts simply with just being sure he sees women as equal growing up and can be as easy as getting into following USWNT soccer and watching some games, anything, multiple things. Help him understand from an early age what women deal with in terms of wage gaps, discrimination, etc.
As he gets to middle school, you will talk about "bird and bees" stuff and any conversation around that should include some discussion of what consent means. Then, you should have some discussions around just consent itself, and don't limit it to "no means no," be sure to also talk about nuanced situations where even just "unsure" means stop...."uncomfortable" means stop, drunk/high/tipsy means stop. Basically, if she isn't completely there, completely and positively into it, slow your roll way down. I taught my son to always pull back a bit at certain junctures and let her take the lead to either stay where they were or progress and if she doesn't, you stay right where your at and go no further. Never pressure, never urge, never act frustrated.
Once you have him responsible for himself (hopefully...teenage boys), you start in telling him to also be aware and step in if he sees something wrong or even close to wrong. Never stand by if you think something wrong is happening, always say something, always get in between, always get her somewhere safe.
December 12th, 2023 at 11:32 AM ^
Agreed with many good points on here about respecting others and their bodies and no meaning no.
The other thing that i think is really important, however, is to model consent for your kids as a parent. You are in a position of power over your child, so practicing consent with them when it comes to things like bodily autonomy is important. We're taught as kids from an early age to give those things up in little ways and parents can play a role in that unconsciously. When we model consent for kids, they learn it much better than just preaching a value.
December 12th, 2023 at 12:03 PM ^
Best advice I can give to people at MSU is to:
Avoid parties/relationships with athletes. Sucks to say that since most are probably good kids, but if it's your word against theirs for any dispute (sexual, a fight, etc) the scales tip to their favor. Don't get yourself into a situation where something even CAN occur. And yes, I know this is victim blaming, but since ELPD doesn't seem to want to hold athletes accountable, there is really no choice but to be extra vigilant
.Also dont be out at night alone if possible. Walk with a friend. Watch your drinks so you dont get drugged. In general, don't get caught up in others business, but watch out for other's safety.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:50 PM ^
I can relate. When my daughter got accepted to Iowa, I immediately contacted campus security to verify what was/wasn't allowed on campus. She went to school with a stun gun and training on how to use it effectively.
It's terrifying, the world we live in.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:21 AM ^
This can happen anywhere.
Tell your mothers, wives, daughters, aunts, nieces, grand daughters and also your sons/grandsons these are crimes and to report such matters directly to law enforcement - city, state police/sheriff.
Not to university officials or campus cops because they are not competent to collect evidence, investigate and prosecute such matters. And they have proven this fact over and over across the entire country. There are exceptions, but they only succeed to prove the rule.
Report SA and R to law enforcement.
Universities and colleges are institutes of higher learning, not law enforcement.
You might as well report such matters to cocker spaniel or a hummingbird.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:28 AM ^
She did both of those things. The woman in this story did what you're "supposed to do" and was told she was a liar. The problem with this kind of statement is that our legal system ALSO sucks at adjudicating these kinds of cases.
December 12th, 2023 at 10:17 AM ^
I don't know what else the legal system can do. "Trust the accuser" runs counter to how our legal system is built. It is supposed to do the opposite. it is an impossible dynamic.