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Michigan State 2023

MGoPodcast 15.8: Come for the Heils, Stay for the Hails Comment Count

BlueBarron October 23rd, 2023 at 7:00 AM

2 hours and 11 minutes

The Sponsors

Thank you to Underground Printing for making this all possible. Rishi and Ryan have been our biggest supporters from the beginning. Check out their wide selection of officially licensed Michigan fan gear at their 3 store locations in Ann Arbor or learn about their custom apparel business at undergroundshirts.com.

Our associate sponsors are: Peak Wealth Management, Matt Demorest - Realtor and Lender, Ann Arbor Elder Law, Michigan Law Grad, The Phil Klein Insurance Group, Winewood Organics, Human Element, Venue by 4M where we recorded this, The Nose Bleeds, which is the Sklars Bros’ reboot of Cheap Seats on UFC Fight Pass, and INTRODUCING TO THE PODCAST: Sharon's Heating & Air Conditioning.

1. Offense vs Michigan State

Starts at 1:00

There was an initial reaction to be nervous about this game due to the history of this rivalry but Michigan does not care. Seth got an Epic Double Bird from a Michigan State player. We love this team. The story of Mike Sainristil and Michael Barrett are what this era of Michigan football are all about. They're such dorks (this is not a diss). Michigan fans absolutely drowned out Spartan Stadium in this game. JJ had a Tom Brady throw in his touchdown pass to Colston Loveland. When the pocket breaks down, JJ is like Houdini. If you let JJ sit in the pocket, he hits his dig routs and you die. If you rush him, it's even worse! Alex Drain's pre-season hot take about AJ Barner was accurate! The run game was a bit stagnant, though. MSU was prepared for the RPS. It's funny that JJ is having his Heisman campaign going on but opposing defenses are still saying "grr we gotta stop the run."

[The rest of the writeup and the player after THE JUMP]

2. Defense vs Michigan State

Starts at 45:30

Michigan State was simply not ready for the smoke here. Michigan went back to rotating a lot because this was over by the 4th drive. Why are you not blocking Mason Graham or Braiden McGregor? Derrick Moore had a good game by beating tackles. You rotate out Kenneth Grant and Mason Graham comes back out so... how do you beat that? Rod Moore was in on the final drives of the game. Junior Colson played a great game, is he the only weakness on this defense? And if so, how do you approach this defense if he's playing well?

3. Hot Takes, Game Theory, and Special Teams

Starts at 1:05:19

Takes hotter than the seat of whoever put a seemingly innocuous video quiz up on the Michigan State scoreboards. If Michigan switched their offense and defense against Purdue, who should play what position? Clock management at the end of the first half is a point of discussion. Aside from the results, it was one of Jim Harbaugh's best two-minute drills of his career at Michigan. DENTAL PLAN. LISA NEEDS BRACES. We couldn't even get to Segment 4 without having to talk about James Franklin's game theory.

4. Around the Big Ten with Jamie Mac

Starts at 1:25:47

Ohio State - 20
Penn State - 12

Penn State's offense cannot do anything. Ohio State has Marvin Harrison Jr., they win, the end. Penn State only gave up 20 points, was there anything they could have even done differently? Some of Penn State's play calls were incredible stupid, what are you doing, James Franklin? Penn State ran the Tecmo Bowl Flea Flicker but they ran it out of a play they never run. Ohio State backup QB Devin Brown went out of this game so if Kyle McCord gets hurt, who is even the next guy up?


Minnesota - 12
Iowa - 10

The funniest and saddest game of the week. Iowa knew their best chance of winning this game was Cooper DeJean getting a punt return and he had an amazing return get called back because he technically waved his hand. Was it easily to interpret that as a fair catch signal? Could Iowa still win the west?


Nebraska - 17
Northwestern - 9

Another hideous Big Ten West game, 257 yards to 248. Is Nebraska looking at possibly seven wins this season? It'll be interesting to see what happens when they go against Maryland.


Wisconsin - 25
Illinois - 21

Illinois booted this one away. Wisconsin wins off of 18 4th quarter points. Wisconsin might still be the favorite to win the Big Ten West?


Rutgers - 31
Indiana - 14

Rutgers is going bowling!! BryMac, we have tickets for you.

"Penn State is Iowa with a finished basement."
 

MUSIC:

  • “I Saw The Sign”— Ace Of Base
  • “Signs”— Kodak Black
  • “Signs”—  Five Man Acoustical Jam
  • “Across 110th Street”
THE USUAL LINKS:


"They're afraid we're going to steal their signs, we don't want their signs."

Comments

Catchafire

October 23rd, 2023 at 8:12 AM ^

These allegations are supposedly serious.  The media and everybody are talking about what should happen to Michigan if true.

I want to hear what should happen to the media and everybody if NOT true.  Because they will not be able to just sweep this under the rug and move on.

The NCAA could turn over rocks at any school and there will be something that goes against their archaic rulebook...

 

Remember when it was illegal to pay recruits and everyone acted like it didn't happen?  Now all of a sudden that's all people talk about is paying players!  Everyone sign steals and scouts!  But these media personalities, I'm looking at you Klatt/Stewart/ESPN, they can't say otherwise... Just like they couldn't say otherwise about paying recruits and players when it was illegal.

Joined: 09/30/2009

MGoPoints: 27956

Ernis

October 23rd, 2023 at 8:25 AM ^

IMO we should except the scouting allegations and even the VAST NETWORK to be confirmed, and our narratives around this should start with that as a given.

But the truth is that this is widespread and teams across the country are quietly shutting down and erasing the evidence of their scouting operations. M doesn’t have that luxury. As we saw Saturday, it’s probably a marginal advantage at best, but how will the NCAA view it and dole out punishment? Assuming they find the evidence they’re looking for, anyway.
Because the rub really is, how much will they do to go after Harbaugh personally? If we have to vacate wins, NBD. If they reduce our scholarships, now we can patch the gap with NIL money (which, losing that cudgel is why Jimmy drew such ire from them for his comments on revenue sharing). Could they hit him with a show cause? No idea, seems vastly excessive, but this is the NCAA we’re talking about: defiantly opposed to consistent and sensible rules enforcement.

Just my epinion.

Joined: 09/23/2008

MGoPoints: 11480

Ernis

October 23rd, 2023 at 9:50 AM ^

It would take a good amount of effort, but in this day of normalized fully-remote work and ubiquitous internet access, it's super feasible.

I'm not saying for sure it is real, I'm just saying we should presume it's real and discoverable so as to realistically expect what would come next.

Joined: 09/23/2008

MGoPoints: 11480

ST3

October 23rd, 2023 at 11:30 AM ^

Washington State has a “vast network” that ensures their flag gets shown on GameDay every Saturday. That’s all this is. Sounds like Stalions got a bunch of his buddies to go to games and tape them for him. Are those people covered by the NCAA bylaws? Because if they are, we all are, and I’ve got to be honest, I haven’t read the NCAA rules manual cover to cover.

Joined: 09/11/2010

MGoPoints: 52560

FB Dive

October 23rd, 2023 at 9:41 AM ^

If we have to vacate wins, NBD.

You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but I find this take insane. Our best three-year stretch in decades (maybe in the entire modern era), our first two Big Ten championships in 20 years, and two legendary wins over our archrival...and you would just shrug if it got wiped away? I would be devastated, it would be a level of BPONE previously not even contemplated. And if you say "it would still count in our hearts," well that's the only place it would count, and even there, it would be inextricably tied to the asterisk that forever goes with it. A pretty big deal, if you ask me.

Joined: 08/03/2019

MGoPoints: 14486

Ernis

October 23rd, 2023 at 10:12 AM ^

The wins would still be real in the sense that they were actually played, won, and remembered in physical, objective reality; the only place this would be undermined is in record books. The players and fans still feel the glory in the moment and in memory, the money still comes in from the TV networks, and even if the wins are vacated we still celebrate the teams in the future (look at the Fab Five - sure, they were a pariah for some years, but it was sanctimony that prevented their being celebrated; the wins are still vacated, but now that the sanctimony has largely been gotten over, they are celebrated).

It would be troubling in that streaks and what not could be broken, but I don't believe it would have a major impact on the trajectory of the program unless M's administration sees fit to pull the rug out from under everything - but that would be self-inflicted and not caused by the vacating of wins directly. From what I've seen, admittedly haven't looked deeply into it, teams' future success isn't terribly impacted by having to vacate historical wins.

I appreciate your perspective, but from mine, the lived human experience is of primary importance, and what matters is what the NCAA can do to reduce our capacity to succeed in events that are real & experienced. Further, what significance would normally be attributed to NCAA records is vastly diminished because they themselves are a morally bankrupt organization and their determinations are bereft of integrity. In fifty years, hypothetically worst case scenario, some curious person may blow the dust off the record books and say, "Gee, that Michigan team, they technically didn't win some games" and nobody who will be involved in actually winning games at that point will care either way.

Joined: 09/23/2008

MGoPoints: 11480

Hensons Mobile…

October 23rd, 2023 at 10:42 AM ^

You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but I find this take insane. 

Back atcha.

Actually, I don't find your take insane, but I do think it's over the top and insane to not recognize that most people don't know, remember, or care about all of the vacated wins and titles throughout the history of the NCAA.

Look at our own basketball program. We all know the Fab Five was in the Final Four.

It would be annoying to deal with but eventually it would just be a good memory.

Joined: 09/12/2019

MGoPoints: 49516

crg

October 23rd, 2023 at 8:43 AM ^

There are never repercussions for false/erroneous accusations in this area.  The story just dies and people move on to the next one.

Edit: repercussions for the *accusers* that is.  The accused (us) will of course have repercussions - even if unjustified.

Joined: 04/30/2015

MGoPoints: 75054

MichiganAlum_2015

October 23rd, 2023 at 11:32 AM ^

Maybe I’m missing something but even if the most severe allegations are true, what grounds does the NCAA have for punishment? I believe the following points are true: 
1. Sign stealing is legal
2. NCAA bylaws suggest an institution may not send a staff member (key word is staff member) to scout teams in person at opponent games
3. This means that even if the most serious allegations ARE TRUE (I.e. we had a “vast network of folks at games doing in person scouting”) - as long as they were NOT ON STAFF for Michigan then it is not illegal 
4. The actual staff member who is suspended is frequently pictured on Michigan sidelines during games - it does not seem like he was the individual actually physically going to opponent games. It seems very unlikely any people going to opponent games were officially on staff. 

Therefore, unless the NCAA can prove this “vast network” was on Michigan payroll, I do not see any way they can pass along legitimate punishment. I’d imagine they will instead write more specific rules to eliminate this gray area in the future. 
 

Otherwise I think this is just a Harbaugh special - operating within the rules in a gray area - kind of like satellite camps - in order to give us an advantage. 

Joined: 10/21/2023

MGoPoints: 57

Hensons Mobile…

October 23rd, 2023 at 12:08 PM ^

I think we're missing so many details right now it's hard to really know.

But if it is that Stalions had his buddies go to games, no money exchanged hands, then I hope we basically get away with it on a technicality. But I simply don't trust the NCAA. They haven't even closed the other investigation yet because they're trying to figure out how to prove that Harbaugh lied.

Joined: 09/12/2019

MGoPoints: 49516

growler4

October 23rd, 2023 at 12:57 PM ^

Sign stealing is within the rules but.in person sign stealing and scouting of a future in-yeat opponent is not.

Harbaugh's public statement made clear that he had no knowledge of such and that he gave no direction for any staff member to do so.

I don't know the precise wording of the rule. If a low level staffer directed a NON -staff person (s) to do so, would that be permissable?

Joined: 11/24/2014

MGoPoints: 1700

MichiganAlum_2015

October 23rd, 2023 at 1:21 PM ^

As far as what I’ve read it may violate the NCAA’s “unsportsmanlike” clause (which, lol) but there does not seem to be anything in the rule book stating what a NON-staffer is allowed to do. So if NON- staffers are the ones stealing signs, in my view of the rules, the NCAA would not have a case. If they decide to loosely interpret the rulebook to hit Harbaugh, that would be another story.  
 

Dan Wetzel alludes to this point about the rulebook in his appearance on Rich Eisen as well

 https://youtu.be/l8WF1jTAui0?si=lKABnPwzf04Odkqk

 

Joined: 10/21/2023

MGoPoints: 57

LSA91

October 23rd, 2023 at 2:26 PM ^

I once wrote a legal brief where I argued that I knew it was frustrating to let my client go without penalty, but the court had no choice but to accept he was covered by a loophole, in that he hadn't committed any crime or done anything illegal. 

(It was internal, but I really wished I could send it to the other side.)

Joined: 11/28/2011

MGoPoints: 2706

1VaBlue1

October 23rd, 2023 at 8:16 AM ^

This was one of the most enjoyable and funny pods I've listened to since 2016!  I LOL'd several times while driving in to work this morning - like I was listening to stand-up comedy.  I'm sure the drivers around me thought I was nuts, but whatever...

Thanks for an enjoyable ride into work on a Monday morning!

Joined: 01/31/2016

MGoPoints: 127087

matty blue

October 23rd, 2023 at 8:57 AM ^

not sure where else to put this, but the shutdown fullcast folks made the joke that sparty put hitler on the board specifically so that Michigan Fan (TM) would argue with the answer - "no, it wasn't austria, it was AUSTRIA-HUNGARY!"

which, yeah - i love being a michigan alum and all that, but boy, does that joke check out...we do tend to pedantry.

Joined: 08/01/2008

MGoPoints: 39201

enlightenedbum

October 23rd, 2023 at 9:08 AM ^

Watching the OSU/PSU game I started having dangerous thoughts.  In particular, I think there are only two to four Buckeyes who could start for us.  Harrison obviously.  Burke over Wallace probably.  Egbuka over CJ but I do think Egbuka is overrated so I'm not sure about that one.  And Eichenberg over Colson potentially.

Joined: 06/06/2009

MGoPoints: 64438

maizenblue92

October 23rd, 2023 at 10:57 AM ^

This is a bit too much Maize and Blue Kool Aid. Ebuka is a top half of the first round WR, he would obviously start. JTT would start, sorry everyone, he is very good now. Eichenburg is a very good LB, he would start. It's OSU, there are very talented players on their roster. Hall would probably be on the 2 two deep over Benny and Goode and make for a very fun partner with Grant. 

Joined: 01/01/2009

MGoPoints: 19715

treetown

October 23rd, 2023 at 9:31 AM ^

The whole picture fiasco was also a rip off. It wasn't even a "vendor" at fault because MSU never paid for the use of the image/question. https://www.mlive.com/sports/2023/10/michigan-state-trustees-call-for-accountability-after-disgusting-display-of-adolf-hitler.html if these comments are correct. 

On MLive
 

"The trivia question came from The Quiz Channel and its creator, Floris van Pallandt, addressed the issue on his YouTube page, saying the university didn’t ask for permission to use it or pay for it.

“To be clear, I was unaware Michigan State University is using my content for stadium entertainment and this was unsolicited and (unauthorized) use,” he wrote. “A random history trivia question in an inappropriate setting.”

The image was displayed more than an hour before kickoff before most of the more than 74,000 fans filtered in. A trivia question about the central figure responsible for the Holocaust drew widespread condemnation of Michigan State, which has an enrollment of more than 51,000 students who hail from 130 different countries."

Joined: 11/10/2010

MGoPoints: 6339

FreddieMercuryHayes

October 23rd, 2023 at 10:48 AM ^

For real.  The Athletic had some article saying contract talks are on hold because of the new investigation which I hope is out of context or flat wrong.  If they are on hold, then Warde has failed big time.  Actually he has already failed considering the cheeseburger held things up first.  Like just give him his contract.  And IF Harbaugh did commit a bunch of violations, then you can fire him for cause (which should be in the contract).  Like what is the downside?  This just seems careening to a total failure on Warde's part.

Joined: 12/29/2010

MGoPoints: 40860

reshp1

October 23rd, 2023 at 9:47 AM ^

I don't think the overthrow to Morris where the DB fell down was on JJ, FWIW. The shot of Harbaugh's reaction has him saying "run through" and you can see Morris gear down for a second just as the ball is thrown.

Joined: 10/31/2011

MGoPoints: 34177

mgoja

October 23rd, 2023 at 10:42 AM ^

Not having played 1 snap at wide receiver or any other position in organized football, I find it rather surprising that either a) Morris wouldn't know this (assuming this is wide receiver 101) and/or b) that Morris and McCarthy wouldn't be on the same page, especially since they've played together in high school.

Joined: 11/29/2022

MGoPoints: 2525