podcast
podcasts
mgopodcast
2023 rutgers

MGoPodcast 15.4: They're Not Friends Anymore Comment Count

BlueBarron September 25th, 2023 at 7:00 AM

2 hour and 34 minutes

The Sponsors

Thank you to Underground Printing for making this all possible. Rishi and Ryan have been our biggest supporters from the beginning. Check out their wide selection of officially licensed Michigan fan gear at their 3 store locations in Ann Arbor or learn about their custom apparel business at undergroundshirts.com.

Our associate sponsors are: Peak Wealth Management, Matt Demorest - Realtor and Lender, Ann Arbor Elder Law, Michigan Law Grad, The Phil Klein Insurance Group, Winewood Organics, Human Element, Venue by 4M where we recorded this, and The Nose Bleeds, which is the Sklars Bros’ reboot of Cheap Seats on UFC Fight Pass.

1. Offense vs Rutgers

Starts at 1:00

Traditionally, this podcast has always started without Lou Holtz, but we challenge him to come here. JJ kept the ball a lot, it felt like Michigan took this game seriously. We’re starting to get worried about Donovan Edwards’ run game, he’s leaving yards on the field. Blake Corum looks like he’s all the way back, though, the offensive line will probably grade out well overall. LaDarius Henderson was playing on and off. It feels like we’re at the floor at tackle as far as preseason expectations go, we’re in game four and don’t know who the starters are. JJ’s first few throws were questionable or inaccurate, but then he leveled out. When’s the last time they threw a tunnel screen? Semaj Morgan looked good but he’s small out there. We think the cyan worked? The flea flicker was from Super Tecmo Bowl. Get Trente Jones the ball! The amount of times JJ ran felt about right also, good that he always got out of bounds. Max Bredeson’s blocking has been great. 

[The rest of the writeup and the player after THE JUMP]

 

2. Defense vs Rutgers

Starts at 39:34

Rod Moore lets a 69 yard touchdown get by and then gets benched for a bit, Quentin Johnson came in and looked pretty good again. Rutgers got the edge a couple times. The only other time they were able to move the ball was when Wimsatt was possessed by the ghost of Unstoppable Throw God Trevor Siemian for half a drive. Rutgers couldn't move the ball against the starting defensive line but were able to push the backups around. Linebackers played great, Mike Barrett looked like a fully weaponized middle linebacker. Haussmann had a really good game, Junior Colson is just not making mistakes in the run game. Mike Sainristil absolutely dump trucked Junior Colson during his interception. Everyone thinks the play is dead except Mike Sainristil and Kenneth Grant, who is impossibly fast for his size here. Michigan defeats the number one thing Rutgers had, which was a running back lead block for the quarterback. Rutgers felt like a much more functional football team this year. 

3. Hot Takes, Game Theory, and Special Teams

Starts at 1:00:38

Brian's Hot Takes voice was actually just a Ryan Day impression this whole time. Aussie punters are annoying, we don’t like it. Thaw needs to get to that ball, someone else should be spotting it. Tommy Doman kicked a punt that still hasn’t landed yet. The officials had a day, good thing it was a Ref Day in a game where it didn’t matter. The Loveland first down was really bad, they marked a clear 3rd and 1 from Donovan Edwards short, they called a pass interference after a receiver gave up on the route. Why do you hate Michigan, KYLE?! They’ve been slow out of the huddle and had to call timeouts twice. Kalel Mullings could very well be the starter next year, and maybe even take some carries away from Edwards this season. 

4. Around the Big Ten with Jamie Mac

Starts at 1:27:45

Ohio State - 17
Notre Dame - 14

Defensive battle with a lot of drives that end on 4th down. Notre Dame bottles up Ohio State’s passing attack and short yardage runs. Sam Hartman throws every possible 4 yard pass en route to 175 yards. The ending was wild and is discussed. JTT and Sawyer look like they haven’t developed at all but Notre Dame has two great tackles. Notre Dame puts 10 guys on the field for the final two plays. The way Ohio State runs this game is how they lose to Michigan. The bad half Ryan Day was referring to was not even the one we were thinking of. The Lou Holtz thing is even funnier in context. 

 

Nebraska - 28
Louisiana Tech - 14

Nebraska’s QB had more rushing yards than passing yards. They’ve discarded the forward pass, as God intended. Nebraska has a 330 lbs defensive tackle that wears zero. This next game will be a test for Michigan’s rush offense, Nebraska may give Michigan some answers about where they are. 

 

Maryland - 31
Michigan State - 9

George Blaha said what?? Michigan State turned it over FIVE times, even though they outgain Maryland. There were some positive signs that they might be able to hang with some of the middle to lower tier big ten teams but we also saw what happened against Washington. It might be a worse sign for Maryland. 

 

Penn State - 31
Iowa - 0

Cade McNamara, 5-14 for 42 yards. Iowa’s running backs combine for 27 yards. Penn State runs almost 60 more plays. It’s about if Kirk Ferentz is getting fired at this point, not just Brian Ferentz. Four first downs to four turnovers, the stats just keep getting worse. Not sure you can extrapolate much from Penn State’s defense in this. Penn State ground game was bottled up, passing game seemed fine.

 

Indiana - 29 (4OT)
Akron - 27

Indiana’s safeties are terrible. Akron outgains Indiana 474-282. Indiana has combined for 8 rushing first downs against three FBS teams this season. Akron is a bad MAC team. 

 

Illinois - 23
Florida Atlantic - 17

Illinois outgains FAU 510-353. Still a little skeptical of this Illinois team but they looked a lot better in this game, even got out of a scoring hole. They’re not good but they don’t seem dire. 

 

Northwestern - 37 (OT)
Minnesota - 34

Northwestern comes back from a 21 yard deficit and gains 492 yards. AJ Henning has a game tying touchdown. These are the games Minnesota usually takes care of and helps them eek out 8 wins. Doesn't look like that will be the case this year.

 

Wisconsin - 38
Purdue - 17

Tanner Mordecai had 13 rushes that weren’t sacks. Wisconsin is probably going to sleepwalk to the division title because nobody else is even trying in the West.

MUSIC:

  • “Bug Like An Angel”— Mitski
  • “Rock 'n Roll With Me”— David Bowie
  • “Let's Go Out On The Town”—  Cut Worms
  • “Across 110th Street”
THE USUAL LINKS:

 

"I got my favorite spoon, and I got my second favorite spoon, but the third favorite spoon I gotta wash.”

Comments

outsidethebox

September 25th, 2023 at 7:48 AM ^

I can't imagine that Michigan will find the good fortune of getting to play Iowa this year. Damn, Cade is worse than I ever thought he was...he and Eric got their just desserts on Saturday-sorry guys, you made your bed.

Coaching at this level of play is demanding. 

Joined: 01/23/2017

MGoPoints: 18816

brad

September 25th, 2023 at 10:19 PM ^

Cade's visibility horizon in-game is five yards past the LOS.  This was definitively, painfully and embarrassingly proven by Georgia in the orange bowl.  

Going back to earlier 2021 games, it's clear that Cade's play was to let the deeper routes run off all coverage, have good protection, and then hit an easy dump off.  He just was not bothering to look deeper.

So it makes sense to go to Iowa right?  Short Throw Game U.  Except, all routes are short now, so the whole defense is there now whereas at Michigan the one short route was screamingly open.  He's inverted his situation without the ability to invert his ability, and so it looks like he sucks.  I suggest he just didn't know himself as well as defenses know him now, and he thought he was better than he is.  Still time to improve for him though.

Joined: 06/30/2008

MGoPoints: 15771

teldar

September 25th, 2023 at 8:39 AM ^

I really don't see how the Ferentzes keep their jobs. Such an obvious case of nepotism gone absolutely wrong. Jim employees Jay, but at least he seems like a good coach.

Joined: 07/14/2009

MGoPoints: 8228

alum96

September 26th, 2023 at 2:01 PM ^

Older Ferentz aint going anywhere.  That contract is immense (well the arms race of last 2 years has made it less so) but getting 8-9 wins a year at Iowa is something.  Iowa admin has to be looking in fear at what happened at Nebraska and knows Ferentz won't let it happen to Iowa.  

The son obviously needs to be punted to Edmonton. 

Joined: 04/28/2012

MGoPoints: 82515

1VaBlue1

September 25th, 2023 at 8:43 AM ^

I'll echo Dave's hot take - they force fed CJ a couple of passes to get/keep him involved.  I thought that on the second throw to him, which just felt forced.  I hate it, because he's good enough to get throws on his own, but Wilson is always so screamingly wide open - what's a QB to do?  I also agree with Seth that Edwards seems to be pressing too hard to break something big, as if to tell everyone that he's still relevant with Blake available.  Dude - you're relevant!  Just play your game...

Joined: 01/31/2016

MGoPoints: 127087

M Vader

September 25th, 2023 at 11:53 AM ^

Perhaps maintaining Johnson with targets helps Wilson stay open in some way, although Wilson is so fast that most defensive players have a difficult time covering him.  It will be interesting to see how Big Ten teams put their personnel on our receivers.  Do they put their best cornerback on Wilson for 100% of snaps?  Having Loveland will also stress defenses, not to mention Edward's catching passes.  

Joined: 06/28/2011

MGoPoints: 2474

Brian Griese

September 25th, 2023 at 9:15 AM ^

Given what he had to say about Barry Sanders, I feel like he’s trying to emulate him a bit too much. I get that his game his long speed and not quickness/power like Corum, but when he gets the ball he needs to pound up it the designed gap/zone and stop worrying about hitting home runs on every play. Someone just needs to tell him there was only one Barry Sanders and to stop trying to find a big play on every carry.
 

I would agree the line has taken a step back but this isn’t some Hoke-esque line either.

Joined: 10/25/2014

MGoPoints: 30240

1VaBlue1

September 25th, 2023 at 9:27 AM ^

The thing is that Barry wasn't trying to hit home run plays - he followed the play as much as he could.  But he was able to see gaps where a mere mortal only sees a few inches.  Barry was three steps ahead of everyone else.  And when the blocking just wasn't there, he was often able to find something else because he had the quickness, speed, agility, and mental acuity to do what nobody else could.  That is why the Lions OL was coached to block the play then find somebody else to block wherever they were on the field, it didn't matter who they found.  Until the whistle blew, Barry could be anywhere...

Donovan is fantastic in the open field, but he is not Barry Sanders.

Joined: 01/31/2016

MGoPoints: 127087

EGD

September 26th, 2023 at 1:03 PM ^

Exactly. Barry usually had to juke at least one tackler as soon as he got the handoff. Many of his best runs were 1-yard gains that should have gone for TFLs. I think that where the whole misplaced narrative about Barry just being a purely improvisational guy comes from. It's not that he wasn't trying to hit the intended gap--it's that far too often the play was completely disrupted from the get-go and he just had to make what he could out of nothing. 

Joined: 09/16/2009

MGoPoints: 35199

JonnyHintz

September 25th, 2023 at 9:26 AM ^

Hate to break it to you, but if you need the best OL in the country to be a good running back, the problem ain’t the OL. 
 

I don’t know where exactly Edwards’ issues lie, but he seems indecisive and hesitant in addition to going down easy. I had reservations about him going back to last year when it came to down to down consistency, he seemed to get stuffed a lot and then break off a chunk run here and there to give him a good YPC. Maybe he’s still rusty, but I’m not seeing that explosive play ability from him to compensate for the 1-2 yard carries. 

Joined: 01/11/2015

MGoPoints: 48405

alum96

September 26th, 2023 at 2:05 PM ^

Yes has some Derrick Green ability in terms of getting touched and falling over.  I am very concerned about it as Blake needs some help.   

No idea the issue either and agree 100% above - if you need the best OL in America or top 3 to be effective you ain't no Walter Payton or Barry, forget a Bijan type.  (I know he plays more like Gibbs than Bijan but just saying)

Joined: 04/28/2012

MGoPoints: 82515

goblu330

September 25th, 2023 at 9:57 AM ^

In my opinion, the issue with Edwards appears to be an unfocussed off-season by both player and coaches alike.  I said it before in previous threads and got hammered for it, but it is on the coaches that Edwards has little role aside from "Corum's backup" and occasionally a receiver.  That is a egregious lack of imagination. Why is he not returning punts?  Don't give me "he is too valuable to risk injury."  Too valuable for what?  6 carriers for 9 yards.  Jabrill Fricking Peppers returned punts and he was the second most important player on the field in Michigan history.  Why isn't he simply lining up in the slot with entire packages of plays designed for him?  Maybe they have said package, but I don't think they do, at least not right now.  

It is possible, (and I say "possible" as it could be happening not accusatory), that Donovan Edwards just wants to go to the NFL and cannot yet, and that is what we are seeing, and that he is participating just to the degree he wants to.  He clearly views himself in high regard.  I don't think he is exaggerating about wanting to revolutionalize the position, but it may be in the NFL specifically where he wants to do it.  He may just be trying not to get hurt.  It is also possible that Edwards is just a weapon they are going to break out for maximum lethality at critical times, and that comports more with what he wants to do as opposed to being an every down player.

The good news is, I thought the same thing at the beginning of last year about the staff and team in the off-season and that they looked kind of unprepared and a couple of weeks behind to start the year.  These off-seasons have been filled with distractions, that is just a fact.  But as the season progressed they figured out how to properly assemble the attack in time for the big games.   So, at this point I think it is just a wait and see.  Things are going to fall into place or they aren't.  Recent history would indicate that they will.

Joined: 01/07/2022

MGoPoints: 32123

WeimyWoodson

September 25th, 2023 at 10:49 AM ^

I've been confused about Edwards as well. Typically, RB is a position where someone as a freshman can come in and do "big" things (compared to other positions). He had the big Maryland game his freshmen year and the one-handed catch against OSU. Then in year two, he had some great PSU runs and, of course OSU, but he just hasn't had that 5*, top RB thing yet in college. Maybe he kills it in the NFL, and we all look back and think, "what if he had done that here" (excluding OSU, which was also opened by the oline). 

I think there were some rumblings about him wanting this year to be his big/Heisman year, but at this point, thank goodness Corum came back. Otherwise, I think they would be in trouble. Here's to hoping Edwards starts clicks and can get what he needs. If not, Edwards might have a decision to make about being a 4th-6th round pick or coming back for senior year (which he doesn't seem to like the idea of). 

Joined: 08/25/2015

MGoPoints: 14734

goblu330

September 25th, 2023 at 10:53 AM ^

They would definitely be in trouble if Corum had not come back.  Edwards broke off two great runs against OSU and one against TCU but Michigan's ability to get ahead of the sticks is entirely dependent on Corum.  Edwards is not that player and was never going to be.  The frustrating thing is that he is definitely A PLAYER, just not that kind of player, and right now it does not appear that the coaches are exploring the possibilities enough.

Joined: 01/07/2022

MGoPoints: 32123

Blau

September 25th, 2023 at 11:09 AM ^

The dude had some long runs that I believe are still going in Columbus last year but he also racked up 991 total yards in 2022. That's nothing to scoff at. When Corum went out, he shined during his moment. His a confident young man for sure, which is good, but I wonder about his mindset now that he's back to RB 1A.

As the crew said, I also get the feeling that he got used to breaking off chunk plays when the defense was out of position or didn't care to tackle. Maybe it's the OL/blocking, defenses stacking the box, or not getting a rhythm by sharing snaps with Corum? I dunno but he isn't the patient, pinball ninja Corum is between the tackles and he doesn't seem to be allowing the play to develop. 

Solution? Let him line up as an actual WR and allow him burn the back half of the defense in space. His track meet style of play is suited for making 1 or 2 defenders miss and turning on the jets, not 5 or 6 like Corum rubber-balling his way through traffic. 

Joined: 01/23/2014

MGoPoints: 35254

WeimyWoodson

September 25th, 2023 at 11:24 AM ^

Yep, I think that's a better answer for the rest of the season. The coaches shouldn't "just keep those plays saved" for PSU and OSU. Both of those teams are probably expecting him to be used as a WR. I imagine it's better to get him practice with those plays and give him some more stats (to keep him happy) than just keeping it wrapped up and hoping it works in those few games. 

Joined: 08/25/2015

MGoPoints: 14734

Bo Harbaugh

September 25th, 2023 at 12:46 PM ^

Edwards isn't seeing the holes right now, it happens.  He started last year similarly, leaving a ton of yards on the field and we all forgot about it because of how he seemingly developed and closed out the year in heroic fashion.

Many here have hit the nail on the head...he's a home run hitting back, but more of one cut and go type - but for that to click, he needs to be on time with his O-line, patient and decisive.  Corum can seemingly always get the extra 3 yards when there isn't much.  

Right now, feels like the O-line has yet to gel and its really affecting Edwards and his style more than Corum.  

We really miss Olu as well...he was cerebral and dominant.  

Joined: 08/03/2019

MGoPoints: 38619

bronxblue

September 25th, 2023 at 12:38 PM ^

I think there's imagination in the playcalls but Edwards does have to perform.  They don't ask him to run the same as Corum (he certainly isn't asked to run straight up the middle like Corum does at times) but when he gets to the outside he's slow to read the play and winds up either missing the open lane or can't shake the first defender.  That's on him, not the playcall.  And he's not an random receiver, but he's a guy out of the backfield who still struggles to break that first tackle attempt when he does get the ball.  His big catch in this game was because it was schemed to get him wide open, where he's terrifying.  But at some point it's on him to justify being more of a focus on the offense; giving him an "Edwards package" when he's getting over 40 touches in 4 games doesn't make any sense to me.  He's gotten opportunities to do something with these plays and he's just not.  Maybe that's rust, maybe that's mistakes on his part, maybe it's just bad luck but this offense isn't going to get better just by force-feeding the backup RB.

He could be a punt returner but (a) you also have other guys who need touches and that's a good way to get them, and (b) there aren't that many punt returns in games.  Maybe he gets 1 or 2 returnable punts a game, and even then we're probably talking about picking up 10-15 yards total.  Yes, Peppers returned punts but even that dried up quickly after the first couple of games.  

I really don't see how revolutionary he is at the RB position; he's obviously lethal in the open field and a plus receiver out of the backfield but he struggles to push through contact and even though he's 6' and 202 pounds he isn't a physical marvel who holds up well in blocking or pushing a pile.  To me watching him not get a yard on 3rd-and-1 running into the back of his line was symptomatic of his issues and something I'm not sure they'll resolve this year.  But the idea that he's somehow better than a half-dozen backs that are in college every year feels like a lot of hype buying and less an actual analysis of his performance in games.

Joined: 11/22/2008

MGoPoints: 171777

Bo Harbaugh

September 25th, 2023 at 12:52 PM ^

Even taking away the two long runs against OSU last year (because according to Ryan Day those 5 big plays never happened) and still, he absolutely passed the eye test in The Game and the B1G Championship - suggesting he had arrived.  He was running with patience, making folks miss in the backfield, had some juke to him and was explosive.  The timing and confidence just isn't there rn and he's not at all clicking with the O-line.  

Joined: 08/03/2019

MGoPoints: 38619

bronxblue

September 25th, 2023 at 1:24 PM ^

Sure, but that's last year and Edwards isn't playing like that guy now.  Last year he was always a threat to take it to the house but when that wasn't the case he wasn't as good at getting those 4-5 yard carries consistently that keeps drives moving and sets you up for those big runs later on.  He had a really good game against Purdue and that's to his credit, but the OSU game was very hit-or-miss until those big runs and then against TCU it was one 54-yard run and then 2.9 ypc on the next 22 carries.  Yes TCU played them tough and maybe Corum only gets 45 yards on that first big run but he absolutely would have been getting 3-4 yards way more consistently and then, for example, they wouldn't have pulled him for Mullings near the goalline.  That's a flaw in his game that he's never really addressed.  I think he got better as the year progressed but it also felt a bit like a hot streak, which happens from time to time.

As for the not clicking with the offensive line, that's true to an extent but he's also just missing lanes that are there.  He showed last year he could run through lanes and showed patience waiting for them; right now he's bailing almost immediately and either trying to beat guys to the outside or going down on first contact.  That's not on his line.  

Joined: 11/22/2008

MGoPoints: 171777

AlbanyBlue

September 25th, 2023 at 1:33 PM ^

The situation with Edwards is due to two main things. First, Michigan has had a tendency to run him into stacked boxes this season, which is not ideal for his game. He needs to be utilized primarily in space. There's such potential for creativity with him, and right now we have only scratched the surface. 

Second though, something is related to his "Barry Sanders / Walter Payton" comment. Whether he's pressing or just not living up to his own hype, he is causing downs to be lit on fire, and the coaches needs to focus on the creativity I mentioned above. 

DE between the tackles is no bueno.

Joined: 09/11/2010

MGoPoints: 22048

JonnyHintz

September 25th, 2023 at 10:11 AM ^

My guess is that he’s out of bounds where the ball crosses the plane of the sideline. Which, it is incredibly difficult to get an angle that would show exactly where the ball is when it crosses that plane. So the call stands since there’s not indisputable evidence that shows where the ball was out of bounds at. 

Joined: 01/11/2015

MGoPoints: 48405

bluenectarine

September 25th, 2023 at 11:52 AM ^

during the telecast, they showed 5 or so views of the play. None of them were "conclusive". The problem is they never showed the actual angle that was used LIVE! In that angle it was obvious he had the nose of the ball over the first down line. Maybe they don't have the live angle to show for replays? sounds stupid, but maybe not!

Joined: 06/29/2012

MGoPoints: 497

Away Goal

September 25th, 2023 at 12:49 PM ^

The BTN review process was a complete embarrassment.  The in-studio rules expert seemed very uncomfortable, like he was a hostage or something.  And yeah, they kept showing reviews using angles that in no way would ever show what we needed to see.  And for good measure, they kept doing that slow-mo rewind of the terrible angle, as if that was going to tell us anything.

I did yell at the TV, just use the view from the live feed!  I don't know if it was conclusively a first down, but it should have at least been re-spotted by about a yard. Butt and buddy were so dismissive too...just yep, not conclusive enough.

Joined: 08/19/2009

MGoPoints: 1383

UP to LA

September 25th, 2023 at 12:45 PM ^

I think it's reasonable to expect referees at this level to be able to hold the information from multiple angles in their head simultaneously. While it might be rare to get a single angle that shows exactly where the ball is when it crosses the sideline plane, there were definitely angles that showed *when* the ball crossed the plane, and there were other angles that showed how far forward the ball was throughout the process. A good ref ought to be able to combine these streams of information and make the "indisputably" correct call.

A couple of side rants:

  • Even if the refs weren't ready to overturn the 1st down call, they should have moved the ball forward -- it was clear from individual camera angles that the spot on the field was way short. And there's a big functional difference between 4th & 36 inches and 4th & 5 inches.
  • I absolutely hate that "indisputable" is the standard for video review. Take the information you have, consult with the ref that made the call on the field, and make the final call that you think is correct based on the preponderance of evidence. The analogy to criminal standards of evidence is dumb; try to get as many calls right as possible.

Joined: 09/22/2018

MGoPoints: 2084

JonnyHintz

September 26th, 2023 at 5:54 AM ^

try to get as many calls right as possible.
 

If the evidence to overturn a call on the field isn’t indisputable, then you’re not getting the call right. That’s the point of the rule. Was the ball out before a runner’s knee touched the ground? Cant tell for sure? Call stands. The “right call” is up for debate, you stick with what was called on the field. 

Joined: 01/11/2015

MGoPoints: 48405

Psalm1611

September 25th, 2023 at 9:46 AM ^

I’m not sure who would win the majority of the games if the B1G-minus Michigan/OSU/PSU played a random collection of Group of 5 teams 200 times this year, but I AM sure I’d be unwilling to wager much money on the B1G.

Joined: 09/12/2019

MGoPoints: 116