Way OT: Advice on some attorney ineptitude.
Too long, won't read: I'm unhappy with an attorney and I am curious about options for recourse, if any.
I'm going to post this here for various reasons: 1). I have zero total experience in my life with anything related to the law and I am totally ignorant to how any of this works. 2). I'm not a member of all that many public forums and out of all the forums I am present on the members here seem, by far, the most savvy to legal topics. 3). I've Googled myself silly over the past few days and the results are watery at best. 4). This is also all taking place in Michigan, so what better place than a Michigan-centric board? Hopefully my rationale checks out and I apologize for the off-topic post and what I think will wind up being long-windedness.
The situation, in a nutshell, is this - my wife had hired an attorney (in November 2023) for what started as some pretty straight-forward custody agreement changes and has slowly morphed into something a little more complicated. About two weeks ago she decided she wasn't happy with mentioned attorneys performance and decided to go to a different attorney for the duration of the case.
The original attorney was all over the place. If I had to sum it all up I'd say that the work that was done was largely unorganized and/or incomplete. She would have trouble with or flat out wouldn't remember names, dates or events surrounding the case. She had written numerous letters or emails that completely left out or even altered certain happenings. At least one document that she had written actually had to be amended because of names being incorrect. She even charged us for the amendment and later on in a letter (which she charged us $95 to draft and send) apologized for the misstep and finished out the letter by asking for more money. Said letter was quite embarrassing in itself, rife with historical inaccuracies, grammatical errors and a decorative frame on all three pages that would make my teenage daughter blush. Overall I'd say that any sort of meaningful communication was lacking and it wasn't attributable to the effort of my wife. She's been totally on top of everything that's transpired.
The issue isn't necessarily the cost so much as the principal. I don't want to pay any more than what I have to for what I perceive as extremely shoddy work. My wife paid the original retainer and after that was dried up was right around when she cut ties. The new attorney took it upon herself to "get rid" of the old attorney and I expected a final bill to come in the mail soon after. It certainly did and I can't make much difference of anything on the bill to dispute anything that has happened along the way, but one thing I know for sure is that the former attorney is charging us for an hours worth of work after she'd been "substituted" (fired). It's about 5 or 6 various rinky-dink charges that add up to an hours worth of work. Review and sign substitution paperwork - .2 hours, email client and new attorney about paperwork - .2 hours, file paperwork - .2 hours, etc.
I have a few questions in relation to this experience.
1). Are we truly on the hook for any costs incurred after we employed another attorney and the original was informed of being off the case?
2). Does any of what I've described add up to any sort of meaningful misconduct or incompetence that could warrant any sort of formal complaint? Obviously when everything is said and done I'll blast the firm on Google reviews but curious if there's anything more that can be done.
3). Should this be a diary?
February 13th, 2024 at 3:45 PM ^
this is still somehow better than 90% of posts on this board.
February 13th, 2024 at 3:50 PM ^
Wait until I do my thread in April on why Devo should definitely be in the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame despite their known derisive remarks towards it and that number will jump considerably because that thread most assuredly will not be better than this one.
February 13th, 2024 at 4:03 PM ^
Do lawyers also wear flower pots on their heads?
February 13th, 2024 at 4:22 PM ^
Anybody wearing these hats should definitely be in.
February 13th, 2024 at 5:17 PM ^
Please also advocate for Mott the Hoople/ Ian Hunter to finally be inducted into the R&&R Hall of Fame. Long overdue, especially with Ian being in his 80s and still actively writing and recording great music.
February 14th, 2024 at 8:19 AM ^
And Overend Watts boots!
February 13th, 2024 at 7:46 PM ^
I’d get some new logins to upvote it. Sadly my plastic hair from one of their concerts didn’t last. Amazing live shows!
February 13th, 2024 at 3:56 PM ^
No kidding. I usually enjoy hearing from MGoBlog posters with ample experience in lines of work different from my own.
I also like the OP's avatar picture.
February 13th, 2024 at 3:51 PM ^
100% yes. "Review and sign substitution paperwork - .2 hours, email client and new attorney about paperwork - .2 hours, file paperwork - .2 hours." That sounds like real time that the attorney spent on your behalf. If the new lawyer calls up the old lawyer and spends an hour on the phone getting up to speed on the case, then that's still an hour spent on your behalf. She may be "off the case" but you are still asking her to spend time doing work for you.1). Are we truly on the hook for any costs incurred after we employed another attorney and the original was informed of being off the case?
Your description suggests general incompetence, not fraud. I don't think any lawyer in history has ever been disbarred for mispelling names.2). Does any of what I've described add up to any sort of meaningful misconduct or incompetence that could warrant any sort of formal complaint? Obviously when everything is said and done I'll blast the firm on Google reviews but curious if there's anything more that can be done.
You probably should have done something else with the hour or so that it took to type this up.3). Should this be a diary?
February 13th, 2024 at 4:56 PM ^
Hour? Looks like 8 minutes. He's not the corrupt and incompetent one. The lawyer is.
February 13th, 2024 at 3:51 PM ^
I'd be happy to give you my divorce attorney's contact information if you shoot me a DM
February 13th, 2024 at 7:22 PM ^
Wait there’s a DM feature on here?
February 14th, 2024 at 8:48 AM ^
Shooting a Day Man seems harsh. There'll be investigations.
February 13th, 2024 at 3:53 PM ^
I would spend 15 minutes on this: write an email laying out your frustrations and dissatisfaction with service/product; offer to pay $_____ (i.e., < final bill) as final amount ending relationship. If you're okay paying the full amount then what's the harm. You don't have to get into a back-and-forth regardless of what the attorney's response is. Fifteen minutes and move on, possibly with a discount (or something closer to what you think is reasonable based on your experience).
February 13th, 2024 at 3:55 PM ^
I am not a lawyer but I have worked with some lawyers for work in relation to business cases (mostly related to unpaid invoices).
I do not think the lawyer is able to bill for work needed to fix mistakes of the lawyer. You could file a complaint with state bar or licensing organization and likely get lawyer sanctioned (probably well short of disbarment but I have no context here).
You are probably on the hook for last bill. You could argue that it was her incompetence/unprofessionalism that necessitated switch and might win that argument.
Since you seem not inclined to just pay it and be done, I would suggest sending her a letter saying you dispute invoice (and likely the one from lawyer's mistake) because the only reason you had to switch was her incompetence/unprofessionalism. Also mention that you will be filing a complaint with state bar. If she agrees to waive invoice(s) you can let it drop there.
If she digs in on invoice, it is probably better to just pay it and avoid a court case. File complaint with state, and post bad reviews everywhere you can think of posting them (including naming the lawyer here).
February 13th, 2024 at 4:57 PM ^
This seems a very solid and responsible way to go about it.
February 13th, 2024 at 4:02 PM ^
As a former employee of a state bar association, you could absolutely file a complaint. Whether or not it goes anywhere beyond that likely depends on the reasons for the issues. If they're just bad at the job, there's really not anything actionable, but if there's serious issues, like non attorneys performing the work, that's something else. If there's issues the new attorney identified, I would obviously include that. You could also call the state bar and describe your situation and se if there's anything actionable.
February 13th, 2024 at 4:56 PM ^
Yeah, I'd definitely call the MI bar and see what they have to say about your situation...
February 13th, 2024 at 4:10 PM ^
As to question 1, the correct answer is "it depends". Did your wife sign a fee agreement with the attorney? If so, pull it out and read it. Does it say anything about this sort of scenario?
A good attorney is (a) going to have a written fee agreement, and (b) is going to have a provision that says yes, you are still on the hook. Not necessarily to cover situations like yours, but instead to cover situations where the client decides to change attorneys - which happens and not always for any particular reason. It does actually take work to wrap things up and turn over the file and attorneys like to get paid for the work that they do.
If there is no written fee agreement or if it doesn't cover this sort of thing then it's up to you whether you want to deal with future bills or whatever the attorney does, if anything, to try and collect.
Not going to comment on question 2, other than to say I personally would not take any action of any sort other than to steer people away from the ex-attorney if asked. I would not even blast on social media, that has a funny way of boomeranging when you least expect it.
February 13th, 2024 at 4:35 PM ^
I once used an attorney for estate planning. We discussed how much it would cost at the beginning of the process. When I got the bill, it was almost ten times what we had discussed. I consulted people who were savvier than me and they said, "Just don't pay it," so I didn't. I never heard from the lawyer again. Not sure if that applies here, and it sounds like she wasn't try to bilk you out of thousands, which is what this attorney was trying to do. I would pay it if it's just an hour. Not worth the hassle.
February 13th, 2024 at 4:38 PM ^
Illinois divorce attorney here. Pick up the phone and call lawyer #1. Tell her that you're unhappy with the how things played out, but you're willing to be reasonable and want to settle up with regard to the bill. Make a good faith offer to settle for what you think is the right amount. You'd be surprised at how much you can accomplish with a phone call instead of an email.
February 13th, 2024 at 8:24 PM ^
NM attorney here. Leroy T’s advice is what I would tell somebody here. Well stated.
February 13th, 2024 at 4:41 PM ^
Can only say that everyone seems to hate on lawyers..... until they need one.
Have had the need to hire a lawyer several times and I would say each time I had at least 2 sometimes 3 consultations which should be free. Maybe 30 minutes of everyone's time. I always went with the lawyer that gave me the most confidence in the best outcome. As in - we're gonna do this and we're gonna win type rah rah.
I would say pay the bill and move on and chalk it up to never again with that attorney.
February 13th, 2024 at 4:43 PM ^
MGoFamilyLawLawyer here. I also served 15+ years on our bar association's ethics committee. As such, we investigate complaints that clients filed against lawyers. I'm not a Michigan lawyer, & so don't know Michigan rules. Having said that, lawyer-client rules are generally the same throughout the country.
The first question is whether you are the client. One of your responses below says your wife is in a post-decree custody fight with her Ex. If so, normally she would be the only client (not you) because only she & the Ex are parties to the case.
Your wife should have signed an engagement letter at the beginning of the representation. The letter would spell out the lawyer's obligations & your wife's obligations (chiefly, to pay the bills).
You wrote that the new lawyer got rid of the old lawyer. That's not how it works. There should have been a formal termination between your wife & the old lawyer. Did the lawyer or your wife send a letter or email formally terminating the legal relationship? If so, normally the lawyer should not bill for any work done after termination unless specifically allowed in the engagement letter. Most former lawyers will spend a few minutes transitioning the file & talking with the new lawyer without charging the client. I never have.
The new lawyer would have filed a counsel substitution notice. That notifies the court & other side that there's a new lawyer in the case. But the counsel substitution doesn't control what your wife may owe to the old lawyer.
If all else fails, your wife might write the lawyer & dispute the post-termination / transition charges.
I agree with other comments here that the lawyer's conduct don't rise to the level of ethical violations that the state bar would pursue. At least they wouldn't in my area. Good luck.
February 13th, 2024 at 5:21 PM ^
Different state, different area of the law for me, but this seems on target.
February 13th, 2024 at 5:27 PM ^
That seems like very sound legal advice.
That said, please make no attempt to bill MGoBlog from across state lines. We'll sic our defense on you...
February 13th, 2024 at 5:05 PM ^
i can't comprehend someone coming to a Michigan football site to subjectively vent about a random lawyer. It makes one wonder the kind of client he might have been.
February 13th, 2024 at 6:32 PM ^
In fairness though, there are a lot of really shitty lawyers out there. And I say this as an attorney myself.
February 14th, 2024 at 8:57 AM ^
Haven't you been dead since 1949?
February 14th, 2024 at 5:53 PM ^
and there are alot of shitty clients--and I say that as a lawyer myself
February 14th, 2024 at 6:08 AM ^
I came here once to ask a question about changing my brake pads while on a road trip in the Rockies. It was OT season and it worked perfectly. There are lots of helpful adults here. No skin off anybody's nose.
February 13th, 2024 at 5:25 PM ^
As someone who used to practice family law with no intention of ever doing so again, I almost stopped when I read "...for what started as some pretty straight-forward custody agreement..." That is where it all goes wrong, my friend. There is no such thing as "straight-forward" or "easy" in family law.
What is the new attorney saying about the other attorney's work to date? I understand that you're not happy with the way the work was produced, which may be a legitimate gripe in itself. However, unless the first attorney did or did not do something to prejudice the case - something more that speculation that better quality letters would have forced a favorable resolution, I wouldn't waste too much energy on this.
As others indicated, the attorney can bill for the time it takes to transfer and close the file. Further - which I have not see mentioned yet - once an attorney enters an appearance in a matter, they are not off the case or "fired" until the court orders the substitution or withdrawal; attorneys are generally able to bill fees and expenses necessary to continue the case until that order is entered. While I don't see that being the case in your fact scenario, perhaps for future reference just know that if this all went down on the eve of a mediation or court date for instance, the attorney could still bill you for their time to appear even though you fired them because without the court order, it would have been necessary for them to appear.
This is not legal advice, and do with it as you will: consider the costs of collecting. Most collection agencies and attorneys will not take on such a small amount unless part of a bulk file. And if that first attorney has any sort of full time practice, they should have more work than time to devote toward chancing down $200-$300 bucks.
In all other respects, your wife is the client here. She can choose to pay it, not pay it, negotiate it, or further complain about it. For better or worse - as is often the case with family law matters - it sounds like now she's with an attorney she has confidence in, her time and energy are better used toward resolving the matter at hand.
February 13th, 2024 at 5:44 PM ^
Understood and thank you.
It sounds like you’re experienced enough to tell me what’s what and give me some much needed perspective, but when a separate agency is telling all parties involved about what needs to happen and how…well, that’s as straight-forward as it comes so far as I can tell.
I haven’t been in contact with the new attorney yet about my grievances with the original attorneys work, but I certainly plan on doing just that.
February 13th, 2024 at 5:40 PM ^
I work with lawyers all the time. In some rare exceptions, they are some of the most unethical, blood-sucking fuckwads, especially if they are not representing you.
My advice is to find that blood-sucking fuckwad to represent you, and pay him/her what you need to get shit done.
February 13th, 2024 at 6:25 PM ^
If the attorney engaged in misconduct, then you can and should file a complaint with the state bar.
If the attorney was just incompetent and screwed up your matter in a way that irreparably compromised your rights, then you may want to talk to a legal malpractice attorney and consider a claim for malpractice.
If you take issue with the attorney's bills, then check the engagement agreement you signed with the attorney for terms about fee disputes. If no such term exists, then consult the state bar's ethical rules for resolving fee disputes between attorneys and clients.
Having said all of this, given that it's such a small amount of money, my advice is to just pay it, chalk it up to lessons learned, and move on. If there's a part of the invoice that you REALLY REALLY don't want to pay, then make out a check for whatever you think is fair and mail it to her with a letter explaining why you're not paying the full amount. Include language in your letter stating that your check is in full satisfaction of your entire obligation to her and that her depositing the check constitutes a waiver of any claim to the remaining balance. Just be prepared for pushback.
DISCLAIMER: None of what I've written above should be considered legal advice.
February 13th, 2024 at 7:10 PM ^
I’m not sure what you should do but do you have any lawyer friends who can give you guidance? After all is said and done I would let the law firm (partners) know the job they did was not satisfactory. Sometimes judges ask if you were satisfied with your attorney. Hopefully everything gets sorted out at the end
February 13th, 2024 at 7:58 PM ^
Our former lawyer died in his office chair in his 90s and handled our business for decades, so his records were stored in every format from paper, to microfiche, to tape, floppy disk and then digital.
So after he died and we had to reassemble some incorporation documents, I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with his partner, who hashed and re-hashed the situation several times “just to be clear on what we’re looking for…” I thought, what is this guy dense? It’s not hard to figure out.
He mailed me what I needed, along with a bill. Something like 3 hours for “filing”, paper copies and printing service, and oh- 30 minutes for a “telephone consult”.
Cost me like 500 bucks for something his old partner wouldn’t have even thought to charge for.
February 13th, 2024 at 8:23 PM ^
Fire Warde
February 14th, 2024 at 8:51 AM ^
Finally, the voice of reason.
February 13th, 2024 at 8:42 PM ^
IANAL but I’ll be damned if I ever pay for someone else’s incompetence.
February 13th, 2024 at 10:19 PM ^
To paraphrase an old joke:
Think about how bad the average attorney is ... Half of all attorneys are even worse than that.
February 14th, 2024 at 1:37 AM ^
And all of them are bad enough at math to not even understand the joke.
February 14th, 2024 at 12:29 AM ^
It's not unreasonable to pay an amount of money to transfer all the work product. How much is reasonable is in the eye of the beholder. If this is really just about the principle of the thing, you need to move on, just like others have said. If you really need the money, you can fight them, but shitty work isn't a crime -- it's just shitty work. The state bar isn't going to do anything either, unfortunately.
February 14th, 2024 at 1:03 AM ^
I'm not a lawyer, have dealt with a lot of them though, sometimes fantastic, but a few bad ones.
Part of me wants to tell you to just pay for the hour and be done with it, but another part of me wants to suggest another option as it galls me to pay people when they make a mess of things. Specifically, I would contact the fired attorney and do following:
1. Make them explain to you very specifically why you were charged for work at all given that you had informed them to stop working on date x. If you can, get this in writing....and make it clear you're not paying for this. It isn't unreasonable to expect an invoice with the date, time and descriptions of the work being charged. If you filed the substitution order and they really did no work to transfer the case......I doubt they will come after you.
2. Also, let the fired attorney know you were extremely dissatisfied with the quality of their work and cite several specific examples, i.e. where you were charged for their mistakes, the documents that needed to be revised, etc. Let them know that if they insist on billing you for extra work that you will have no choice but to post a negative review of their work online anywhere you can find a place to do so, including the BBB. Then indicate that their work, along with the overcharges after they were removed, were so egregiously bad that you are considering contacting the Bar Association to determine whether you should make a complaint and send them examples of the work. If this is consistently the level of work they produce, this won't likely be the first time this has occurred and they won't want another one filed.
Sure it is only an hour's worth of $$, but the attorney is going to look at it the same way and may figure that these (illegitimate) charges aren't worth the trouble you could cause them. You have a wealth of evidence of below adequate lawyering, use it.
February 14th, 2024 at 7:22 AM ^
Ask your new lawyer?
February 14th, 2024 at 8:25 AM ^
Use the Day brothers' approach of smearing and making her prove she didn't do it until everybody's out of money or a job.
Or move on knowing you are the better man.
February 14th, 2024 at 9:10 AM ^
I don't know if your wife had a retainer agreement, and if so what it said, but in theory the attorney could argue that the work required to transfer the case to the new attorney was on your wife's behalf. My suggestion is that you send a short email indicating in as neutral a tone as possible that there issues with the way the case was handled, and asking for that final charge be waived or offering a compromise (if the final is $500 for instance you might offer $250).