“Stealing is okay, but a method is not.”-NCAA
I feel like I am screaming in the woods as no one seems to care that the NCAA bylaws fail to address actual theft of proprietary information and focuses only on a method used to commit deed.
This is akin to arresting and charging a burglar for using a crowbar in the commission of a burglary rather than for the act of burglary itself.
If there was really any concern over the integrity of the game the bylaws would also forbid signal stealing outright(regardless of the near impossibility of preventing that). But they don’t which to me says a lot about the concerns over the integrity of the game.
This is just another example of the ethical rot at the core of this sport.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:47 AM ^
I don't get the sense that the prohibition against in-person scouting was even designed to stop sign stealing. Making sign stealing slightly harder seems to have been an accidental byproduct of the rule against in-person scouting. But it does stand to reason that there would be an advantage in the sign stealing arena if you were obtaining information in person that you could not obtain from recordings that were gathered without violating the rules.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:03 AM ^
Totally. I think it appears to be about "scouting," which is much more than just filming OR sign-stealing. And was intended to prevent the Michigans of the world from hiring 10 additional staffers to scout teams in person while the bottom of the barrel had only one guy sitting in the AD reviewing film.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:47 AM ^
Oh look, another hawt taeke on the NCAA investigation. Does this take us over 100 yet or not?
October 25th, 2023 at 9:52 AM ^
It’s an hawt take to bring up a logical ethical question? Okay, bra.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:04 AM ^
I don’t think either of you understand what a hot take is based on these responses. Pretty curious response to an attempt at trying to have a discussion on the obvious flawed ethics here.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:02 AM ^
Let's take a look. So we've got your new and completely original insight on the matter on the front page so we can discuss it.
Or if yours isnt to someone's liking we can scroll down one and talk about in the SEC shorts post.
Dont like that one well scroll down three more and let's talk about it in the 11 Warriors thread.
Well if you like that, just one down is someone wondering about why ticket providers are helping the investigation
Three down from that one is a thread admonishing us to use the term Code Cracking instead of sign stealing. That seems fun.
Right below that is a post with actual news on the subject talking about the upcoming meeting witht the NCAA and Michigan
And right below that we can learn what Deon Sanders thinks about the situation
Then one below that is a post about something a OSU blogger thinks is coming (spoiler alert - he was wrong)
Directly below that post we can learn what the "old lady" (NYT) vaunted sports coverage had to say about this a few years ago
And finally for anyone wondering what Colin Cowherd was thinking there's a thread here to discuss it
So yeah "bra" we're doing what we always do and we're beating this subject to ever-loving fucking death. Bra.
EDIT: In the time it took me to compile this stupid list yet another poster offered his VERY IMPORTANT THOUGHTS ON THINGS post where he asks "Did Conner Stallion go rogue" I mean it's not like that question hasnt been asked like, I dunno, a thousand fucking times in the other 100 threads on the subject.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:07 AM ^
It’s the fucking bye week. What the hell else are people going to discuss? If you aren’t interested then don’t respond. No one is forcing you to respond, bra.
People bitching about a post rather than skipping it altogether…SMDH.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:18 AM ^
We are all complicit in taking a 2-3 day story and stretching it to a week already. I’m at the point where I hope we can all ignore this and hope it goes away, or at least recedes somewhat from the public consciousness. Every time one of us clicks an ESPN link or a Yahoo link, the algorithm adds a +1 to the interest-meter thereby moving these stories higher up on the front page. It’s ok to want to be informed about what’s happening with our university and football program, but maybe don’t give this fire so much oxygen.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:49 AM ^
I don't see the problem. IMHO, for a fair and ethical game, everyone needs to play by the same rules, and the rules shouldn't encourage harm to players or staff.
If you're playing diplomacy or poker, you can lie to your opponents, you can scout them for "tells" to find out more information about their plans or cards, but you can't put a bug someplace to listen in on their private conversations or take pictures of their cards.
For what it's worth, in NCAAF, you can try to figure out an opponents' signs, but you can't scout them in person.Having an analyst try to figure out signs was fine, because that's the game. Having that analyst scout in person would definitely not be fine, because that's against the rules. You can argue about how those rules apply here, but those are the rules.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:55 AM ^
But in this case Connor Stalions didn't scout the opposition in person. He had someone else do that and then analyzed the footage.
So in this case - especially if its proven that this was just Stalions acting on his own - what the NCAA should do is issue a stern warning (lol) and clarify the rule.
That's where this should start and stop.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:02 AM ^
Yeah, I tried to get that with my last sentence. We might get out of this on the "There's no rule that says a dog can't play football"* defense,
I was responding more to your original point, which I understood to be that you thought it was wrong for the rules to forbid in-person scouting but not sign decoding.
* Speaking of which, I'd love for one of the sports humor sites to put together a story on how Michigan is under investigation for allegations that JJ McCarthy is actually a very talented golden retriever in disguise. We could clear that one, but when it's discovered that Mike Sanristil is three corgis standing on each others' shoulders, allegations of too many players on the field threaten to drown us.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:05 AM ^
Was a 22 year old college girl who nothing about football a "scout"? Or was she a human willing to use her camera to film the opposing sideline for 3 hours in exchange for beer money?
October 25th, 2023 at 9:49 AM ^
Let's see how this "meeting" plays out tomorrow.
The NCAA is no fan of Harbaugh, but I am not sure they want this particular "scandal" at this time.
The NCAA really has not made a peep in any of this. This is apparently OSU and the BIG, or so it would appear.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:11 AM ^
"Not a peep"
Oh no - the NCAA been a leaking and a peeping!
October 25th, 2023 at 10:29 AM ^
I did not know he was a member of the NCAA committee on infractions.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:16 AM ^
NCAA leaking to him.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:30 AM ^
Might be wishful thinking, but I have a suspicion that after the meeting the NCAA will make a vague, milquetoast statement about program ethics and loopholes and the “spirit of fair competition”. Michigan will make their own statement about the same, and this whole thing will fade pretty quickly.
Michigan won’t face any direct punishment outside of Stalions losing his job, but the rivals and haters will have their script on Michigan and Harbaugh for the next decade: Cheaters.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:23 AM ^
And you know what? Fine. They do that anyway. OSU lost because of the weather and the flu. Then it was a perfect game at home except for 5 measly lucky plays. Now it’s the sign stealing (as if THATS why we dominated the line of scrimmage in 2021). Even though OSU coaches already established they changed signs for 2022…and still lost. No matter, they got their scapegoat. It wasn’t that their team was just not good enough to handle Michigans physical game for 4 quarters…no, must be the sign stealing.
Clearly that’s why JJ is fitting in all these NFL throws, or Corum is talented enough to contend for a Heisman.
Humans like to find patterns, and it feels good to lump all the success of Michigan to “cheating” no matter what evidence exists otherwise. As if the sign stealing can totally explain 8 ass whooping to mediocre opponents this year.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:41 AM ^
Let me preface this by saying that this is internet account and could be completely wrong so I'll eat the downvotes. That said, @genetics65, a twitter account that has had a bunch of Big 10 and realignment news that has seemingly come to fruition, has been tweeting about this situation. It seems like this guy either may actually have some connections to Big Ten athletic departments based on some past information he has posted or he has gotten lucky on some speculation. Take this all with a big grain of salt but this is what he's said:
Regarding how this all started:
"How/who blew all of this wide open - Michigan signal stuff. Las Vegas. Those guys don't like losing money."
"All I know is they (Vegas) found irregularities in data that didn't make and sense any that is how it got started. Sounds like Vegas contacted the Big Ten."
"When you piss of Vegas, you have pissed off the wrong people."
On the current status of things:
"I will put it in a polite manner...Big Ten leadership is mad."
"Serious conversations of Jim Harbaugh having coached his last game at Michigan. Major talk of an incoming suspension."
"I don't know what will get approved since it is a group of folks that have to approve or reject, but what is on the table is the following:
- firing of Jim Harbaugh
- Jim Harbaugh suspension
- Bowl ban for THIS season
- Forfeit games this season and last season"
October 25th, 2023 at 10:52 AM ^
I’m going to buy you a clue: ignore this @genetics65 idiot.
This would be the equivalent of a firing squad for stealing a piece of bread. And I’m not under any illusion that the NCAA and B1G wouldn’t rule like them if they could, but he’s talking truly North Korea level lunacy.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:01 AM ^
I sure hope you're right! I would love it if this speculation turns out to be complete bullshit!
October 25th, 2023 at 9:50 AM ^
Former high school football coach that ran no huddle spread here. I have two problems with the idea that Michigan gained a huge competitive advantage that haven't been mentioned.
1. Play calls often come in seconds before a snap. Was Michigan really coordinated enough that they could a change a play seconds before snap count. Also if OSU knew we were stealing, why didn't they just speed up their snap count?
2. What stops OSU from just waiting for a critical juncture and giving a sign for a run up the middle but letting everyone on the offense know to ignore all signs and throw a wide open PA TD to Harrison Jr? You do that a couple times and Michigan gives up on code breaking.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:53 AM ^
To add to this, two things could be true at once here: Michigan did something wrong and OSU is making as big a deal out of this as it plausibly can because Ryan Day hasn't been able to beat the Wolverines on the field for two straight years.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:02 AM ^
My working theory:
Ohio State knew about Stalions last year, which means that this is to Ohio State's advantage. They can change their signals in a manner that benefits them in the Michigan game (similar to Mike Leach leaving the fake play sheet on the sideline vs. Texas). Day believed that the stolen signs were the only reason they lost in 2021, so he didn't bother leaking this to the media, believing Ohio State could use their knowledge of the stolen signs to beat Michigan in 2022.
Michigan then proceeds to beat Ohio State even worse in 2022 - again, with them having the information advantage. A fuming, piss-pants Ryan Day goes into 2023 knowing he has to beat Michigan, so he waits till the season begins to leak this in hopes that it derails Michigan's season and gives Ohio State an advantage, while also giving him an excuse for his prior losses (which he conveniently does after nearly every loss, see Georgia and Clemson).
I was nervous about the Ohio State game before this all happened. I think Michigan is going to destroy them now.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:21 AM ^
Say what you will about Meyer or Tressel, but can you imagine either of them crying to the NCAA about us for any reason?
Woody Hayes may come back from the dead to slap the shit out of Day for being a pussy and a rat.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:30 AM ^
Other than the fact that I can't believe that what Stalions did isn't already completely legal, the fact that a college football coach tattled on his rival is what surprises me the most about this. He actually went to mom and told on Michigan.
I didn't really have strong feelings about Ryan Day prior to this. If anything, I thought he was getting treated a little unfairly because he has coached OSU to a great record and was not to far away from a NC last year.
But man, this changes that. This is a guy screaming about the rules whose entire program is built on the rules not mattering:
The Tressel era has a clear line of players being paid from Maurice Clarett to Troy Smith to Tyrelle Pryor that if you're claiming to care about the rules (I personally don't care at all about these guys making money) all success should just be wiped away.
His first year the NCAA did away with their transfer rule to allow Justin Fields to get on the field in year one for the weakest possible exception imaginable.
His second year the Big Ten literally changed their rules during the season to allow his team into the title game.
Now I just think he's a loser and I don't think a guy like that is going to be successful against this Michigan team going forward. He's got that stink on him.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:10 AM ^
I agree with both takes here: these coaches are not dumb. They are playing games, and games within games. Unfortunately, to your point, it didn't work in 2022, so he has to move on to another tactic, and I think we have broken Ryan Day. He came in thinking he could beat Michigan by continuing to do what Urban had been doing, but Ryan Day is not Urban Meyer, and reality bites. Urban Meyer is one of the greatest football coaches of all time. Ryan Day is a great passing game coordinator who fell into being the head coach at OSU before he was ready. I also think Jim's 3rd base comment really cut to the bone. Imagine the pressure Day is under, and he doesn't seem to know what to do to turn things around.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:09 AM ^
Another coach here that ran the spread with signals. Thought exactly the same. We had an opponent that had sent scouts to film our signals (our kids found out when their players told them they had seen the film). Their DC was screaming the plays out before hand and once he got a few wrong, that was the end of that. We won the game by 35+ and our backups played the 4th Q.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:28 AM ^
Not a coach, but from what I've seen it looks like fans of other teams and the media are all like 'liTerALly wOrSe thAn thE aStRos!' and everyone who's ever played competitive football is all like 'lololol, we all try to do this'
October 25th, 2023 at 9:51 AM ^
This is not screaming in a woods. This is preaching to a choir. Everyone here knows this.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:53 AM ^
Sorry, I should have clarified that I meant on social media.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:43 AM ^
Rando fans on X don't know and don't care about the facts so that is a total lost cause. What is annoying to me, though I should not find it surprising, is that the same distinctions seem to elude a great many members of the media, who appear to barely be one step above the randos.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:00 AM ^
That depends… can you see me?
October 25th, 2023 at 10:01 AM ^
Gotta disagree somewhat. I get the frustration, but I don't see that it's logically inconsistent to say something is okay as long as you don't do it in a specifically undesired way.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:09 AM ^
It clearly is inconsistent. You permit a crime or competitive advantage while forbidding a means to do so. Inconsistent and undermines the integrity of the sport.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:20 AM ^
You're the one saying it's a crime. The NCAA isn't.
Driving 60 mph isn't against the law in and of itself. Driving 60 mph in a residential neighborhood is against the law.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:30 AM ^
That is the problem I am referring to.
Stealing is widely understood as immoral and/or unethical behavior. If the NCAA doesn’t deem it so then that says much about the integrity of the organization and the sport itself.
Thou Shalt Not Steal
October 25th, 2023 at 10:40 AM ^
Basing your entire argument that it's by definition illegal, immoral, or unethical on the fact that it's commonly referred to as "sign stealing" seems like you're unfairly stacking the deck.
Call it opponent intelligence, communication scouting, or whatever you want. The NCAA says it's not against the rules, so long as you abide by their stipulations about how it may be done.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:17 AM ^
They permit unethical behavior unless committed using a specific method. That is the issue.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:11 AM ^
Act v.s. Method: It's not that you kissed my daughter on the cheek that I object to, but the fact that you threw her on the ground and held her down before you did it!
October 25th, 2023 at 10:33 AM ^
Except stealing is an universally condemned act. Kissing is not. Your analogy doesn’t work.
Stealing is a crime. Kissing is not.
A more accurate analogy would be to say that the act of stealing a car is fine, but the use of a crowbar in doing so is not.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:42 AM ^
Is intercepting and deciphering enemy communications during wartime a universally condemned act? Is it illegal, immoral, or unethical?
Context matters.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:19 AM ^
Sports is not war. War permits mass killing of humans. Society does not. Sports is part of society. It isn’t war or war adjacent despite people wanting to think it is. The violence within the sport is heavily regulated and protected against.
Society says that stealing is wrong. There is no asterisk pertaining to context.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:51 AM ^
If we call it intercepting signals, does that work? Stealing signals in a football game is not a universally condemned act, so the kissing analogy seems closer than stealing the car.
I'm not a fan of the NCAA at all, but I don't see any hypocrisy regarding penalizing the method. Yes, the NCAA is saying that stealing signals is allowed, but not when particular methods are used to do it. The Astros were an extreme example I think most of us agree on: if there's a runner on second, he can relay the signals to the batter, but you may not use video cameras in the outfield to signal the batter. It's not relaying information to the batter that's not allowed, it's the method.
October 25th, 2023 at 12:09 PM ^
You keep saying it's condemned. It is not. Everyone knows it's gamesmanship, and everyone does it. It's code cracking. It is not a crime. There is no rule against it. Michigan is not in trouble for cracking codes. They are in trouble for having people do it in other stadiums. "Stealing" signs is not akin to stealing a car. This is not a Biblical offense.
October 25th, 2023 at 2:30 PM ^
Stealing the deal in Euchre is a universally condemned act?
Stealing a kiss from your girlfriend is a universally condemned act?
Stealing a base in baseball is a universally condemned act?
Stealing into a room to avoid disturbing a person sleeping is a universally condemned act?
October 25th, 2023 at 10:07 AM ^
This is actually enforceable vs In game stealing. Hey don’t look at that guy.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:10 AM ^
"Commission of a burglary" sounds weird to me for some reason. I don't know.
But to your point, Sal, I think we're seeing another case where Michigan is being made the prime example of what happens when gray areas or indiscriminate rules have little oversight and they need to sort of play "catch-up".
Harbaugh has obviously been the Peter Gibbons to the NCAA's Bill Lumbergh since his implementing of Satellite Camps early in his tenure. Who knows what happens after the meeting tomorrow in Ann Arbor but if NCAA threatens anything outside of a hand slap, the revolt should be large enough that the NCAA's Initech might burn to the ground.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:18 AM ^
This is akin to arresting and charging a burglar for using a crowbar in the commission of a burglary rather than for the act of burglary itself.
You're missing a layer. They're also not charging the guy robbing the house next door in the same exact way.