Our recruiting in Ohio
I don’t want this to sound like a hot take, but Harbaugh has not really emphasized recruiting in Ohio, where Hoke made it a priority. I grew up watching our teams from the 90s that always had a strong influence of Ohio players. Obviously are two recent Heisman winners were both from Ohio.
Hokes first full class in 2012 had 5 of the top 15 from Ohio and the 2013 class had 6 of the top 15. A lot of those players made up the core of the 2016 team that should have beat OSU.
Under Harbaugh we had no Ohio players in 2016, 2 players in 2017 (#9 and #17), none in 2018, 6 in 2019 (but only 3 of the top 20, and none so far this year.
Im certainly not saying that’s the only factor and it’s harder getting top Ohio players to commit now with the current circumstances, but I think we need to work hard to start pulling in more of these players that really understand the rivalry.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:21 PM ^
Michigan can recruit Ohio and should be. Ohio is a big state with excellent high school football. Mattison and Hoke rebuilt Michigan's O and D lines with Ohio talent and Harbaugh used them for his best year.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:27 PM ^
I agree. Which is why I find it puzzling that this staff really isn’t doing much of it. As a Bo disciple, you would think this would be one of Harbaughs core beliefs. But so far it hasn’t been. I’m a big Harbaugh supporter, but that is probably one thing he should borrow from the Hoke era. Brady was over his head, but he understood how to get his guys ready for the OSU game and understood the importance of getting Ohio guys.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:45 PM ^
Besides Kalis and Wormley, who was a significant contributor on either line in 2016 that we recruited from Ohio? Not to mention that saying Hoke rebuilt our offensive line is some incredible revisionist history.
December 4th, 2019 at 1:00 PM ^
What year was Taco? He was from pickerton
December 4th, 2019 at 1:07 PM ^
He was 2016, that's my bad, missed him on the roster because of the unconventional number. The point still stands though, it's misleading to act like the line on both sides of the ball was built on Ohio talent. Especially the offensive line.
December 4th, 2019 at 1:09 PM ^
I didn’t look I was asking. I wasn’t sure if he went in the 2016 draft with Henry
December 4th, 2019 at 1:01 PM ^
Our top 3 tacklers in that game were all from Ohio and combined for 4.5 sacks.
December 4th, 2019 at 1:08 PM ^
How many of those top 3 tacklers played on the defensive line?
December 4th, 2019 at 1:34 PM ^
Probably 1? Taco Charlton had like 3 sacks that game.
December 4th, 2019 at 1:37 PM ^
Ben Gedeon also from Ohio
Mike McCray, Ohio
Jake Butt, Ohio
December 4th, 2019 at 6:42 PM ^
Gedeon was a big win for Hoke.... so was Butt... OSU wanted both of them...not sure about McCray despite being a legacy.
Though Hoke also got Bolden, who OSU did NOT want, nor did ND...and many people ripped Kelly for saying what an idiot he was to pass on Bolden, who I think was a ND legacy and/or huge fan.... Kelly did his homework.
Someone earlier mentioned Willie Henry, that is a type that Harbaugh needs more of.... but I think that was a RR recruit... RR did get a few good Ohio players.... Henry and Jake Ryan, both from the Cleveland area, but both of these were plan B for OSU....recall OSU took the smaller LB teammate of Ryan, forgot his name, but ended up doing nothing whereas Ryan was a star. we need more of them... Dantonio made a living off of this, getting the plan B guys.
December 4th, 2019 at 1:40 PM ^
Yeah. Rebuilt is doing an awful lot of work in that sentence in regards to the OL.
December 4th, 2019 at 4:38 PM ^
Hole rebuilt the oline? That isn’t how I remember it for some reason.
December 4th, 2019 at 6:11 PM ^
I just went through OSU's starting 22. Only a few players are from Ohio and none of their good players except LB Harrison. Traditionally Michigan had more out of state appeal than OSU due to #1 public university an #1 town in America. Urban was a genius in going national. If OSU's starters were still 80% from Ohio we would beat them, but they're not. Imagine Fields, Dobbins, Victor, Olave, Young, Fuller, Okudah and Arnette on M instead of OSU. We would roll them. It all comes down to out of state recruiting.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:24 PM ^
I mean it would definitely help to better in Ohio, but at the same time I hate to say it but what is UM's value proposition in relation to OSU right now for the cream of the crop Ohio players? They have won more and the player doesn't have to leave their home state to play college football. Unless the player is looking for stronger academics it is a tough pitch right now.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:29 PM ^
And I don’t think we beat OSU for the cream of the crop, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take any. Guys like Wormley, Butt, Taco, Henry..this team needs guys like them.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:37 PM ^
But they took 6 in 2019, but you're adding the qualifier that they are not the cream of the crop guys to discount that. That doesn't jive with saying they should take some even if they aren't cream of the crop. Also I would argue that trying to take more guys that Ohio State deemed not good enough to offer as a long term strategy to try and beat them is not a very good one. You sometimes find diamonds in the rough, but as we have seen with the bottom falling out for MSU's that is not viable long term.
December 4th, 2019 at 3:22 PM ^
what is UM's value proposition in relation to OSU right now for the cream of the crop Ohio players?
How about "do you want be another cog in the wheel at Ohio? Or would you rather be the superstar that turns the tide and be remembered for being part of the team that flips the dynamic? You want to follow in Desmond Howard and Charles Woodson's footsteps?
Instant playing time for the top guys, bragging rights versus your buddies who the take the easier path, get further away from home (some people like some distance from family and friends), or sell them the a Michigan degree vs an Ohio degree.
You're telling me, despite the current circumstances, you can't see a good recruiter like Harbaugh should be able to sell that? Hoke & Mattison did it. Al Washington was doing it. Zach Harrison was a hair away from committing before Urban leaving changed his mind. DPJ could have gone down south, he stayed in Michigan.
It can and should be done. Did Ohio have problems recruiting the state in the 90's when they were being bludgeoned at the end of every season by us?
December 5th, 2019 at 1:54 AM ^
Yes, Ohio State neglected Ohio in the 90’s. It was one of the knocks on John Cooper. He was bringing in all kinds of national recruits and he didn’t emphasize the rivalry. We were landing top-notch Ohio kids left and right and they don’t need any history lessons on The Game.
OSU points at Paris Campbell, Darron Lee, Denzel Ward, Marshon Lattimore, Sam Hubbard...all recent Ohio “cogs” who are starting in the NFL right now. Kids today know Desmond and Charles as two old guys on TV, they watched Ohio kids blow up at OSU.
They have a better pitch for the 5-6 elite kids in that state.
Where we can make hay is with the diamonds in the rough. Ohio produces stud OL’s and LBs who get 3*s because the recruiting services don’t get out to see them play. Dantonio beat OSU 3 times in the past 7 years with 25 Ohio kids who got overlooked by OSU.
December 4th, 2019 at 4:58 PM ^
I don't think they have to be the cream of the crop as much as high D1 athletes that will harbor a deep desire to embarrass OSU for passing them over.
Strictly my opinion, but I think Michigan has really not shown an innate fire to destroy OSU. There is a talent disparity but not enough for the last 2 blowouts. Michigan has beaten OSU in the past with less talent than the last 2 teams.
December 4th, 2019 at 7:00 PM ^
Cypherblue, in the last 4 recruiting classes OSU signed 39 top 100, um-13. Top 50 OSU-19, um-7. Thats a pretty big disparity imo. In 2018 UM failed to sign any top 100 players and only 3 in 2019. You won't compete for championships recruiting like that. Maybe 2 or 3 in each class pan out. 8 starters for osu are from one class. 3 top 100 in 2 years, maybe 6 end up starting?
2 OSU DB's were out in the 2nd half in AA, Arnette&Wade. Yet OSU held UM to 50 yards on 4/22 passing by Patterson, with 3 backups rotating in their stead. 14/15 250 yards 1st half.
I agree the rivalry is one sided. UM seems like they are trying to ignore OSU and make do the best they can with 1 automatic loss every year, and maybe back in to the playoffs every 5 years?
December 4th, 2019 at 12:25 PM ^
Thank you TK...
Bo's and Mo's teams were 50% to 60% Ohio players. Even Dantonio's, and he beat OSU plenty.
When Harbaugh arrived from the west coast, the best chance of getting inroads again to Ohio was to hire a few Ohio coaches....... he did not, until Al Washington, who tried.
What people don't seem to understand is how much Ohio players, moreso than Michigan players, have to win that game, and stocking our team with a ton of them, can only help.
Our program slide in the rivalry can be correlated from the time Tressel went all in on shutting us out of the state... took him awhile but then we began to lose consistently, and haven't recovered. It used to be the best Ohio players would come to us as much as going to them, year after year... then when we stopped, Dantonio began to get some of those, and you saw the success he had.
December 4th, 2019 at 1:04 PM ^
Zordich is from Youngstown and was coaching at Youngstown before Michigan so.... Ed Warinner is also from and played college in Ohio. Harbaugh also tried to get Marrow from Kentucky
December 4th, 2019 at 2:15 PM ^
Zordich and Warinner are considered two of our "worst" recruiters though, right? Very happy with their position coaching but they're not the ones bringing in the top end talent (though for OL, development is more important).
December 4th, 2019 at 3:12 PM ^
Our failure against MSU came thanks to RichRod's lack of focus in-state. Harbaugh has changed things and look at that rivalry.
Now, he needs to make Ohio a priority. I don't care if he needs to hire one of the top H.S. coaches in Cleveland or Cincinnati. If it's within the rules, he needs to pull the trigger.
December 4th, 2019 at 4:13 PM ^
I disagree there...
Tressel began to effectively lock us out of state at Carr's tail end and then RR showed and we were locked out altogether... partly because those plan B OSU recruits from Ohio, Tressel guided them to his buddy Dantonio... he gets guys like Bell, Rush, etc...
Harbaugh did try to get the footprint, with Zordich, Warinner, even Durkin and Al Washington, the latter was a brilliant move by Day to steal him, because Washington was sticking it to them on the Ohio recruits.
Hoke, I will give him credit, he went at Ohio and hard, and won alot of battles.... I do wish he were back on staff because he is an ace recruiter.... I prefer many of his players to Harbaughs, if you skip OL and LB. His DL was fantastic... but Hoke did whiff on Ohio CBs, but he almost had them like Conley.
Now Fickell seems to be snagging one or two, and Kentucky is too...
December 4th, 2019 at 3:58 PM ^
"program demise" lol.
December 4th, 2019 at 4:15 PM ^
You're right... I used a poor choice of words.... I meant to say "program setback" or maybe "backslide in the rivarly the past 15 years"
December 5th, 2019 at 12:50 AM ^
Finally. Someone that gets it. Tressel built the HS relationships, Urban continued to and Day is doing the same. ND is no longer pulling the Cincy kids and UM is no longer pulling the northern kids.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:25 PM ^
OSU has 25 commits this class, 8 are from Ohio, 1 of those is a kicker, and of the other (7) 1 is a 5 star and 1 is 4 star. Last years class had 17 commits, and 5 were from Ohio. It doesn't look like OSU is recruiting Ohio anymore. Dobbins isn't from Ohio, Chase Young isn't from Ohio, Damon Arnette isn't from Ohio, Justin Fields isn't from Ohio, Okudah isn't from Ohio.... Are you starting to see a pattern here?
December 4th, 2019 at 12:27 PM ^
Yup. OSU doesn’t even emphasize recruiting in Ohio. If you want to compete with OSU, you have to recruit outside the area.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:39 PM ^
Your argument doesn't hold much water when OSU has commits from 4 of the top 5 recruits from Ohio in 2021, all in the top 150 on 247. They also took the top 2 guys from Ohio in 2020. Perhaps our definitions of "emphasize" are different but their commitments show an emphasis IMO.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:51 PM ^
OSU emphasize's the best players from where ever they are. The Bosa's, Austin Mack, Dwayne Haskins, Binjimen Victor, Jordan Fuller, Tuf Borland, Baron Browning, Shaun Wade, Master Teague, and Chris Olave. These guys aren't from Ohio, but they are fricking studs. You get these guys, you don't need guys from Ohio. They understand winning football.
December 4th, 2019 at 1:34 PM ^
While it's true that OSU focuses on elite prospects outside of Ohio, the argument was that they don't emphasize recruiting players from Ohio, which is flat wrong when you look at OSU's recent recruiting history in the state. To argue otherwise is to ignore facts. You're stating that just because a bunch of elite prospects from OSU's teams in recent past are not from Ohio means they don't emphasize Ohio, even though they own that state, especially the elite prospects from that state.
December 4th, 2019 at 2:05 PM ^
Ok! OSU doesn’t put an emphasis on the number of recruits from Ohio like in the past. Holy f#ck!
December 4th, 2019 at 4:55 PM ^
You want to recruit to compete with OSU and play in the playoffs? You have to:
1. Own Michigan
2. Kick ass within 300 miles of Ann Arbor, driving distance for the family. Yes, by that definition Ohio is included. So is Chicago and western Pennsylvania.
3. Get somewhere between 5 and 10 of the Top 100 recruits nationwide.
Can this be done? We're Michigan fergodsake.
December 4th, 2019 at 1:48 PM ^
It’s not that OSU doesn’t emphasize recruiting in Ohio. It’s just that, where in the past they’d take the top Ohio players and some from the lower tiers as well. Now they take the top players from Ohio and the top ones from other states as well instead of lower tier Ohio ones.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:36 PM ^
Well obviously you can’t recruit just from Ohio. But that does not mean that you can’t recruit from it at all.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:57 PM ^
exactly this. OSU is recruiting at a level only matched by Alabama and, as of this 2020 class, Clemson and occasionally Georgia I suppose. They are taking the most elite players. If those players are in Ohio, they will clean up. If those players are not in Ohio, they will go get them where they are. Pointing to a geographic area as the problem when they 120+ points better than us in team talent composites is not the answer. We need better talent, period, and those players need to be put in better position by the coaches. I don't care if the kids we are getting are from Pyongyang. I care if they are fast enoguh to stay with Chris Olave, and strong enough to push back against OSU's o-line and pull down JK Dobbins. Should we send Dax Hill packing because he's from Oklahoma and not Cincinnati? Or should we have Dax Hill's at every level of the defense so OSU doesn't have guys popping open all over the field? Recruit guys in OH absolutely, but only if they're good and only if we aren't able to get a better player somewhere else. Assuming we'll take down Ohio State because we got more dudes from Ohio and they'll be "madder" and want to beat them more is a ridiculous assertion.
December 4th, 2019 at 3:07 PM ^
You make a great point. Considering how much these kids work for the chance to play 12 games, it’s completely ignorant to think any of those players didn’t want to win enough.
December 4th, 2019 at 4:20 PM ^
You're talking about a small amount of players, but the majority of the team is from Ohio.
Bo had guys like Anthony Carter from Florida, Leroy Hoard from La, etc... Moeller took tons of guys from Illinois, probably from his time as coach there and made good contacts, but half the roster was from Ohio....
Its about the bulk and heart of the team, not a few key positional players...
December 4th, 2019 at 12:26 PM ^
We have to sell jerseys in Ohio before we can recruit there...
December 4th, 2019 at 12:26 PM ^
"I think we need to work hard to start pulling in more of these players that really understand the rivalry."
JFC in a shopping cart. You lost me there, OP. Do you also think Harbaugh's principal issue is a lack of understanding of the rivalry?
Let's just get good players, eh?
I agree that Ohio is an obvious area of focus. But, what if prying a few 4-stars out of Ohio would be impractical overall (requiring the shifting of recruiting resources from other areas where our odds are better)?
December 4th, 2019 at 12:31 PM ^
No, I don’t think he lacks an understanding of the rivalry. I’m saying getting good players from Ohio who have this rivalry in their blood would not be a bad thing.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:35 PM ^
Shouldn't this cut both ways? Ohio isn't prioritizing Ohio in recruiting anymore but they aren't having any issues kicking our ass. They're prioritizing top talent no matter where it lives. That's the disconnect.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:27 PM ^
I used to recruit for Michigan here in northern Ohio (92-94) and its hard to pull kids out of here but definitely not impossible. What's ironic to me is we basically gave up on Ohio when we decided to launch the satellite camps. Meaning we somehow thought it would be easier to pull a kid out of Georgia than it would be Ohio which ive never understood at all.
The problem they have now is all the relationships Hoke cultivated are now gone. Getting restarted here will not be easy but can be done with enough time and energy.
I wish they would.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:33 PM ^
Sir---
Let me tell you a little secret. Michigan wanted to do satellite camps in Ohio. I know first hand because I know coaches at Ohio Domincan and Ohio Wesleyan who were contacted by Michigan to host camps around Columbus. However, shortly after UofM contacted them in 2015, a football operations employee at OSU called both staffs at the schools and told them in no uncertain terms that if they hosted a single camp for UofM for even an hour, they would never get a player from Ohio again, nor have the ability to use their annual camp to recruit or coach at. The OSU employee was very blunt and direct.
So it isn't like they didn't try, but OSU scared the other campuses off from doing that. Much like Coach O down in Louisiana.
December 4th, 2019 at 12:44 PM ^
That sounds about right. Its too bad those schools didnt have the stones to go public with the threat and take the position "this is for all student athletes, not just the 1% (less probably) that will go to OSU.
Fact remains though we could still recruit Ohio without satellite camps (lots of schools do) and we've chosen not to.
December 4th, 2019 at 1:38 PM ^
And how could OSU prevent a D2 (Domincan) or a D3 (Wesleyan) school from getting kids from Ohio?
I get that OSU would no longer invite their coaching staffs to camps and honestly that is probably where they do the majority of their recruiting, but how could OSU prevent a kid from going to a D3 school?
December 4th, 2019 at 2:28 PM ^
For small schools it's about relationships, exposure at OSU camps are huge. It's a lot harder to recruit to a school no one has heard of, especially if it's blacklisted by OSU, which is the Ohio equivalent of the Vatican Church