NBA has changed
January 16th, 2020 at 10:18 AM ^
well, when I typed it up, there was a picture there. Let me see if I can figure out where it went/how to get it back.
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January 16th, 2020 at 12:23 PM ^
User emoji checks out
January 16th, 2020 at 10:19 AM ^
MGoHallofFame
January 16th, 2020 at 10:22 AM ^
Midrange is dead.
Charles Matthews was born about 15 years late. Hopefully he’s been working on that 3 point shot over the past year during rehab.
January 16th, 2020 at 11:34 AM ^
If it's a Rorschach test it pretty much reflects my sex life in the two time periods!
January 16th, 2020 at 1:10 PM ^
It's not representations of bad and worse is it? That would be sad.
January 16th, 2020 at 11:59 AM ^
To be fair Charles' midrange wasn't great either. I remember he was 0 for his last 27 or something at some point last season. I think his 3 pointer was more efficient than his midrange anyway.
January 16th, 2020 at 10:23 AM ^
Crazy chart. Thanks for sharing.
January 16th, 2020 at 10:24 AM ^
Players and coaches have gotten alot smarter.
Unfortunately, my junior high team thinks that they should do the exact same thing as the NBA players.
January 16th, 2020 at 10:27 AM ^
Distribution of 3's is interesting... Wonder why nobody used to shoot them from off-center in 01-02
January 16th, 2020 at 10:32 AM ^
The largest portion of threes shot during that time were shots taken after kick-out passes after post double teams, typically from the wing. We will call it the Horry-zone.
January 16th, 2020 at 10:36 AM ^
The graph looks like threes and a giant middle finger.
I'm glad this wasn't a post about how tHeY dOnT pLaY dEfEnSe AnYmOrE because scores of 74-68 are super entertaining.
January 16th, 2020 at 10:44 AM ^
Actually, it looks like the rim is on fire
January 16th, 2020 at 10:56 AM ^
I actually think really good defense is really entertaining. Seeing an entire group of players that committed to something that does not show up individually in the stat sheet is the epitome of team ball.
January 16th, 2020 at 10:54 AM ^
Well in 2001 Kobe was in the league, so all of those baseline and elbow jumpers probably came from his 45 attempts per game.
January 16th, 2020 at 11:02 AM ^
Mark Price would have been a hall of famer if he played in today's NBA.
January 16th, 2020 at 11:11 AM ^
You'll appreciate this story (and are you new here will hate it so it's a double win)
I bought a house in Hudson in 92 and in my development at the time lived both Mark Price and Brad Daugherty. My ex-wife was involved in a women's group at church that did a "meal ministry" to families of pregnant members.
Guess whose house I got to bring a spaghetti casserole to? Yup, Mark Price, and as I handed him the food all I could think was "this dude makes millions and I have to bring him dinner?"
January 16th, 2020 at 11:22 AM ^
I pretty much worshiped that guy when I was a kid.
January 16th, 2020 at 1:42 PM ^
Growing up in Cleveland during the late 80's, that was a fun second team for me to temporarily adopt. I still remember their what-coulda-been nucleus all coming together in 1987 - Daugherty, Harp, Price, Ehlo, and Hot Rod (RIP)
It sucks that Ehlo was mostly remembered for the shot Jordan hit over him that really wasn't bad defense by him at all; Ehlo was also the guy who'd put the Cavs up on the prior possession and was a perfectly fine rotation guy during that era. I still remember listening to Cavs broadcasts with Joe Tait and hearing the crowd cementing his place on the roster as they chanted his name - he was a 10-day contract the team had signed as an emergency fill-in for Price.
January 16th, 2020 at 3:02 PM ^
Plus Ron Harper, Larry Nance, Terrell Brandon
January 16th, 2020 at 1:55 PM ^
Chadds Ford?
January 16th, 2020 at 11:04 AM ^
I've gone to a couple local high school games this year and noticed a difference between teams taking the two differing approaches.
The local team takes the 2019-2020 approach and only shoots 3 pointers or shots at the rim. Players will pass out of decent looks from the mid range in favor of a catch and shoot 3 from a teammate and if they can't penetrate on the dribble to the basket instead of a decent pull up shot from the elbow or baseline they will kick it out. Also, pick and rolls are non existent, it is almost 100% pick and pop. One of the player's father is a former NBA player (Very short career < 1 season) and he hates the strategy at this level. His view is that these kids don't have the jump shot ability to play like that. The NBA is full of the world's best shooters so the analytics are going to be different than what you can find roaming the halls of your local high school, especially Class B or lower schools.
I have to say agree with him because on observation the teams that utilize a mid range game like 2001-2002 with pull up jumpers from the elbow and baseline have taken the local team to task. Although when the local team puts together back to back possessions of hitting a 3 pointer it does swing momentum, and I think shooting more 3s results in more offensive rebounds by the guards. Honestly, it is kind of hard to watch the local team at times in their half court offense. But they make up for it by periodically playing an awesome full court trap defense that smothers the opponents.
January 16th, 2020 at 11:13 AM ^
I work with junior high kids and they want to shoot every time they get the ball at the 3 point line. Now, I only have one kid on my team that can shoot them better than 30% in game situations lol. But they all only seem to remember their makes and not their misses. The other coaches tell the kids not to shoot 3s when we scrimmage or its an automatic turnover. This is my first year as an assistant, so I don't contradict them but I think it would be more useful just to tell them that 3s only count as 2 points because I don't want them to not work on their jumpers.
January 16th, 2020 at 11:32 AM ^
I don't have any stats to back this up, but my best guess is that as a team they are shooting less than 25% from 3.
So some quick math, if they are shooting 25% from 3 the expected value of that shot is 0.75 pts. So they'd get an equivalent expected value from a mid range shot if they could shoot 37.5%. Which seems reasonable for the high school level, but I don't really know.
Sometimes I think the coaches are just mimicking the NBA style because "this is what the pros do so it must be the best" and not really doing the analysis based on the team's abilities.
January 16th, 2020 at 12:25 PM ^
This seems reasonable. The mid range shot hasn’t disappeared because it’s worthless, but because the three is worth more when guys can make them. But when guys can’t make them, you need shots that they can make.
January 16th, 2020 at 2:58 PM ^
Exactly. There is one kid who shoots a handful of 3s a game who has the wonkiest shot I've ever seen.
I'll define the coordinate space as follows: X axis is left to right, the Y axis is forward and backward, and Z axis is up and down.
Think about how you would flick your wrist for follow through on a shot. Almost every basketball player's shot rotates in the Y-Z plane with the axis of rotation being the X axis.
This kid's shot rotates in the X-Y plane with the axis of rotation being the Z axis. I'm no expert but to me that is not a fundamentally sound jump shot. Yet the coaches green light this kid to shoot 3s.
I guess this is the stuff you see when watching class B high school basketball.
January 16th, 2020 at 11:18 AM ^
Ugggh. I was inadvertently way, way ahead of my time, finishing high school in 1994. I would have been a huge commodity in today's game instead of just a pretty good role player.
We had a stud 6'7" big man who averaged 20+ around the rim, just using good post play to get himself puppies with a few dunks sprinkled in. He was a throwback. Nobody could guard him. We played against Div 1 players about half our games, and Big Man went on to a D3 career which came with about every honor you can get and a year or 2 in Europe, getting paid.
Big Man's "little buddy", me, was the 6'4" wing. All I had to do was wait for him to open things up, and I just jacked 3 ball after 3 ball, even typically being guarded by the opponent's best wing defender. I didn't need a lot of room to get a shot off. I think I shot around 140 3's on the year, made around 60 or so. Got a few buckets around the rim or in transition, and made most of my free throws. I had about a 36 inch vertical which got me a couple flushes and came in real handy in pickup games. It got me an All Conference honor, which was flattering, but my best opportunities to continue on were less desirable D3, and I just passed them all up and "went to college".
The way they play now, uggggggh, I want a time machine. Some games I launched 12-13 threes, some games 5. I could get away with 20 attempts now.
January 16th, 2020 at 11:54 AM ^
You were 6'4" and could shoot 3s in varsity level games at 42.8% clip with anywhere from 5 to 13 attempts per game and all you got were D3 opportunities?
I get that '94 was pre-internet recruiting but did you not go to camps or send out film?
January 17th, 2020 at 7:25 AM ^
That’s exactly right. Nobody was telling us to get film out. In hindsight it would have been easy. And the camps we went to were all in state, like Camp of Champions in Adrian, where we would show up and dominate the small school kids. Not many coaches came out to watch.
When I was at WMU I was a regular pickup player for their team. I held my own just fine. I could have easily contributed to their squad in practice and just not played much. Pickup games could be me and 9 of their scholarship guys and I could blend in. Or “hang”. That high school teammate I mentioned was better than their post players.
January 16th, 2020 at 11:05 AM ^
Analytics have completely changed how basketball is played. 3 pointers and layups are considered the only good shots
January 16th, 2020 at 11:10 AM ^
I wonder what it looked like back in the 70's - 90's when the NBA was great. The NBA has sucked out loud since then. It is unwatchable for me. The chart on the right looks like you either chuck up a 3 or clear out and go 1 on 1 and then go to the line. Boring as fuck.
January 16th, 2020 at 12:25 PM ^
I thought that was my latest CAT scan...
January 16th, 2020 at 4:32 PM ^
While there are obviously still great players, the game has suffered as the 3 has become more prominent. Another contributing factor has been so many players leaving college early and entering the league less skilled and less physically and emotionally mature than in the past.
January 16th, 2020 at 7:40 PM ^
Too bad the chart stops at the 3 point line. There are two more dots nearer to halfcourt where Chauncey Billups and Vinnie Johnson shoot.
January 16th, 2020 at 10:22 AM ^
Horay, got it to post in a response
January 16th, 2020 at 4:04 PM ^
10/10 effort to save the thread
January 16th, 2020 at 10:22 AM ^
If we're gonna talk NBA, then I want to bring up Sekou Doumbouya for the Pistons. The 19 year old has been a pleasant surprise and seems like the first great draft pick the Pistons have had in a long time.
January 16th, 2020 at 10:30 AM ^
Feels like he catches and finishes everything in traffic, and his jump shot is so smooth. Only thing he's really missing right now is shot creation and I feel like he'll develop that. If he doesn't become a star, he's going to at least be a really good role player. Nice guy to build around.
January 16th, 2020 at 10:40 AM ^
Pretty solid article on him over at The Athletic.
January 16th, 2020 at 10:46 AM ^
The win last night was maddening. This organization needs to get rid of Drummond, Rose, and lose every possible game they can while letting every young guy on the roster go out and play.
There is nothing for them to gain other than screwing up their draft prospects. They won't make the playoffs, and if they somehow did, will get wrecked by the 1 seed.
January 16th, 2020 at 11:03 AM ^
It is still beneficial for them to play Drummond and Rose because they're trade chips. If they aren't playing, we can't ask for much in return. Now I don't think Rose should be playing as much as he is - don't want him to block development or hurt himself, tanking his trade value - but he's still gotta play and we have to let him showcase his strengths to get maximum in return.
January 16th, 2020 at 12:06 PM ^
There's like 2 weeks left in the trade deadline. Teams know what Drummond and Rose are; they are both veterans.
At this point, I do not care what the team gets back; there's no reason to hold onto either of them.
January 16th, 2020 at 12:15 PM ^
Should definitely care what the team gets back because what you get back is going to have an impact on the future. They're not just going to let Drummond go for nothing. If it makes more sense to wait til summer and see what we could get in a sign and trade, that's the smart thing to do if you can get more assets for the future. Rose has another year on his cheap contract, so no reason to trade him away for nothing if the market will be better next summer or next season. Short sighted thinking like yours is how the Pistons got into the position they're in lol
January 16th, 2020 at 1:23 PM ^
Short sighted thinking? I have been paying attention to this team for a decade; the EXACT reason they are in this position is due to the crap they've been doing by kicking the can down the road and holding onto these guys that are not part of ANY long term plans.
Do you understand how Drummond's contract works? There's no "sign and trades" that will happen in the off-season. Andre is going to opt-out of his final year, he has already made that pretty public. There's absolutely NO reason for him to be on this roster in two weeks. If you can get expiring deals or a late 1st rounder, take it. Because in the off-season, his value is ZERO.
As far as Derrick Rose, again, there's no reason for him to be on this team. He maybe has two years left of decent basketball in him, if you can talk to a team that is in contention this year and is need of a scoring guard, you can get something for him.
Being passive and continuing to roll in medicority is what this organization has been doing for a decade now.
January 16th, 2020 at 4:30 PM ^
If all they’re getting is expiring, no reason to trade him as his salary is off the books this offseason anyways. Now, thats only if he opts out. He said he is, but it’s no guarantee. He might realize he can make more by opting in, and that gives us time to find a suitor, thus sign and trade.
We aren’t gonna be good for a few years anyways. I want to trade Rose but if the offers aren’t there, wait til the summer.
kicking the can down the road = short sighted thinking
January 16th, 2020 at 4:45 PM ^
Exactly! That's what they have been doing for a decade. They have been kicking the can down the road and REFUSING to rebuild the only feasible way that teams are supposed to in the NBA.
They need to get rid of these guys so they can bring in new talent, new draft picks, and let their young guys go. I don't want to see Derrick Rose on the court anymore. I don't want to see Andre Drummond on the court anymore. They are not part of future plans; hell, they aren't part of the immediate plans. Get what you can for them, and start the damn rebuild right.
January 16th, 2020 at 10:28 AM ^
A lot of people talk about the "change" as if the league changed just for the sake of it. It's definitely much more of an improvement than a "change"; it's not just a stylistic choice or change to shoot more 3's and layups.
Players today could go back into those eras and "change" things to the way they are now eventually. But players whose play styles matched previous eras would not be able to play efficiently today.