“ In most cases, video of future opponents is readily available either through institutional exchange, subscription to a recording/dubbing service or internet sites accessible to the general public.”
When the NCAA simplified 11.6.1 in 2013 to the rule that applies today (https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/proposalView?id=3017) they added the title to this thread in the commentary. I think the key is “subscription to a recording/dubbing service” because it’s not specifically defined what that is. So this is all our intrepid young assistant was enthusiastically doing.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:21 PM ^
I would like a puppy.
And you folks are my only friends. ;-)
October 25th, 2023 at 4:06 PM ^
Make it stop... Beat Purdue
October 25th, 2023 at 4:07 PM ^
The actual text of the rule is: "Off-Campus, In-Person Scouting Prohibition. Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited."
Honestly, I don't think you could even blame Stalions or anyone else thinking that what he did isn't covered by this rule. It looks to me like no Michigan staffer scouted opponents in-person.
Obtaining video from 3rd parties who recorded the games does not appear to be prohibited by this rule. In fact, one could argue that it is implicitly permitted.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:19 PM ^
I can believe Stallions thought he was in the clear, but there's no way his argument (or this one) is gonna fly. The second he bought tickets and paid those people to be there, he was cooked. If the idiot had simply told people secretly to buy tickets under their own names, post the footage to YouTube, point him in to those videos, he actually might have fine, or at least there would be plenty of room to deny.
But the dipshit bought the tickets under his own name and very blatantly made it clear they were scouting for him, a Michigan staffer, on his behalf
A lot of fans need to realize that there is no argument along those lines that the NCAA will sign off on. The only thing Michigan/Harbaugh need to do is prove he was a lone wolf acting out on his own without their knowledge. Stop trying to parse the rules for loopholes, that won't do anything.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:30 PM ^
Regardless of what the NCAA eventually decides (which we as fans cannot influence one way or another, unless our name is Jim Stapleton), it's important that Michigan fans as a fanbase understand that the violation Michigan is accused of is of a technical, procedural nature, and not a moral or integrity-related nature (which is what our foes will claim).
October 25th, 2023 at 11:54 PM ^
Keep telling yourself that. It’s an ethical violation, pure and simple, if true.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:36 PM ^
And anyone who did this with his ultimate motives likely let others in position of authority know so he could accomplish his motive of "leading Michigan football" which is cringy to even type. That is what has me worried. He has nothing to gain for his ultimate goal if he doesn't share what he's doing. That is his in and presumably why he was hired. Is that breaking the letter of this rule? Probably not the spirit IMO undoubtedly so.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:41 PM ^
There is no “spirit of the rule.” There is a rule and it’s about whether he broke it or not. This is a whole different train than Brady Hoke was driving. It may not be for everybody but this is about titles.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:37 PM ^
NCAA bylaw is so badly written, nobody can follow it. If this were a policy, I would have a hard time suspending an employee because a lawyer would tear me apart. They have loopholes that someone can drive a truck thru. Of course these are not laws. That is the difference. This is all interpreted by some asshole in a suit based on who is shining his shoes that week.
October 25th, 2023 at 7:08 PM ^
"NCAA bylaw is so badly written, nobody can follow it." I mean, I'm pretty sure that you could follow it by not scouting live games either in person or through paid agents.
October 25th, 2023 at 5:19 PM ^
Us Michigan fans are trying to make sense of the most devastating news we've had in a long time especially considering what I believe to be our best Michigan football team, EVER.
I understand that you've got this all figured out but I don't nor do a lot of others, clearly. I'm not trying to be difficult but please don't tell me how to behave right now, thanks.
October 25th, 2023 at 5:27 PM ^
I haven't seen any evidence he paid people to be there.
If someone gives me tickets to a Michigan game and tells me to pick up a hat for them and we're even, it doesn't make me an employee.
It's becoming more and more clear that Michigan didn't do anything wrong, and further didn't do anything other teams aren't doing, but there's a vendetta against them by the B1G, the NCAA, certain other teams and people acting in bad faith.
October 25th, 2023 at 5:43 PM ^
Well except the 4.11.h section of the football rulebook explicitly says "h. Any attempt to record, either through audio or video means, any signals given by an opposing player, coach or other team personnel is prohibited."
If Stallions paid people on his behalf to do that, that seems pretty clear cut.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:11 PM ^
It isn't. That citation is from the "Prohibited Field Equipment" subsection of Rule 1, "Players and Playing Equipment." There is no indication it applies to anyone not involved with the game being played.
October 25th, 2023 at 6:15 PM ^
It's anything but clear cut dude.
That is just, like, your opinion, man.
October 25th, 2023 at 7:11 PM ^
Key word there is "opposing." None of these allegations are about recording the opposing team during a Michigan game. Also, please refer to rule 1-1-6-b, "Persons subject to the rules."
Fans in the stands are not subject to the rules. They can not be penalized for breaking the rules of football. Fans are allowed to make loud noises before the snap, fans are allowed to shout abuse at the officials, and fans are allowed to tape whatever they feel like taping.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:56 PM ^
My god. It’s been more and more clear they broke the rules. What is wrong with you? Read the Washington Post article. The rules may be silly, but they broke them.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:07 PM ^
this is a good point but really what it makes most clear is i just need some Sparty UFR in my veins
October 25th, 2023 at 4:09 PM ^
Stalions probably would have a far better argument if he had incorporated first and then set out on this journey. At least turn it into a video laundering scheme of sorts, under the guise of a legitimate business.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:19 PM ^
I don't think that matters at all. I think a bigger issue is that the individuals who attended the games did not requested permission to record the games from the hosts. It's usually in the T&Cs of tickets that you can't make video for commercial purposes unless explicitly permitted in writing.
In other words whatever video Stalions obtained was created unofficially i.e. 'bootlegged'. It would thus be difficult to present this as a typical or regular way of obtaining game film.
However, it could be argued that while banning Stalions from future ticket purchases is a legitimate punishment, that this is neither here nor there with regard to the NCAA bylaw. For whether the video is commercially legitimate or not isn't really the relevant aspect when it comes to determining whether the act of purchasing said video constitutes 'in-person scouting'. I'd argue that it does not.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:45 PM ^
Hope Mars or some smart lawyer points that out to NCAA so they back off and tell everyone you all can do whatever the hell you want. LOL.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:18 PM ^
I'm sure it's been asked, but if not...
If there is video evidence from the OSU 2022 game, and there were suspicions in 2022 and 2021, why make it a deal now? I feel like if you had this evidence or even a strong suspicion, you should have raised it. It's like you're complicit in a way.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:23 PM ^
I don't think there's evidence of 2021 though, right? He wasn't on staff then. One thing about a lot of the media leaks is they're talking about how he did all these things before 2022 - but none of that matters, he wasn't a university employee at that time, right?
October 25th, 2023 at 4:29 PM ^
I have no idea what matters with the Keystone Cop NCAA on the case.
October 26th, 2023 at 8:46 AM ^
You should read all of it again. Yes, it goes back to '21 and prior. No he was not on staff. But I keep seeing a lot of people not absorbing this detail, for whatever reason (salacious titles and opening paragraphs).
October 25th, 2023 at 4:32 PM ^
theorizing: OSU was collecting evidence and building a case. They were setting a trap for the game this year. Letting Michigan get their signals, and then planning on changing them. Then when the season was over they would reveal the evidence they had. But before they could, JS, who the whole time was working with Ryan Day, decides he can't let Harbaugh get a new extension with a big buyout, so he drops the news. Day is pissed because he was gonna nail Harbaugh to the wall, but JS jumped the gun. Now it's MSU week and MSU is fanning the flames because they think it might help them in the game to have controversy swirling over Michigan. The Big Ten now finds out. Tells all conference members, who go back and look at their ticket records. Media picks it up. It all snow balls.
Basically the original plan was for Day and Stapleton to unleash this in the offseason. Remember, the NCAA accepted the 4 game suspension before JS rejects it at the last minute. I'm betting he met with Day in the summer and decided they would combine these 2 cases into 1 over the offseason and get Harbaugh with a harsher penalty after OSU won by making Michigan belive they had given away their signs.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:55 PM ^
I LOVE this theory. As far as I'm concerned right now it's the truth.
I'm still lost on something, though, that apparently has already been explained elsewhere. I don't get how OSU even found out or got evidence.
I guess OSU was suspicious of how good Stalions was after 2021, so they hired a PI to figure it out in 2022? And that's why they decided to "change it up" in 2022 but they didn't have a chance to go full on Operation Change Signals and were saving it for 2023?
But still, what would the PI find? I'm assuming he wasn't accessing the ticket stales information or the stadium surveillance cameras.
October 25th, 2023 at 5:08 PM ^
I think the PI probably found the Venmo stuff. OSU knew about the tickets to their own games purchased by Stallions. PI probably also had pictures of a guy in the stands recording the sidelines. Maybe even asked the guy a few questions.
What they likely didn't know until it came out was the purchases of tickets to other non-OSU games.
In 2022, they likely only completely changed signals, and it wasn't enough because they just got outplayed / had a bunch of busts.
In 2023 the plan was to go the full reverse: the signal for run means deep bomb etc. They had to evolve the plan further. Possibly even they wanted to release the evidence at the end of last year, but after they didn't win, they wanted one more chance to use their "we know they know" against Michigan and get the pressure off Day.
October 25th, 2023 at 5:28 PM ^
In this reality, Stapleton saved us after all!
October 25th, 2023 at 5:16 PM ^
This all raises a question: why is a guy with Michigan ties even allowed to take part in an investigation into UM? He seems to have a clear agenda - not in the way you'd assume, but an agenda nonetheless - when the NCAA should want to have impartial investigations.
October 25th, 2023 at 5:16 PM ^
If there is video evidence from the OSU 2022 game, and there were suspicions in 2022 and 2021, why make it a deal now?
If what is being said about Stapleton is true, maybe he leaked it to roadblock Harbaugh getting a new contract?
October 25th, 2023 at 4:22 PM ^
We're trying to get nuanced which is really cute. The NCAA is gonna keep coming until they get us. There's not gonna be a "well, technically the fake classes were also available to the general student population so it's fine" interpretation coming our way.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:22 PM ^
Why is it that the NCAA gives up on NC, Clemson, Kentucky, etc. but they have it in for us? Is it all this JS guy’s vendetta?
Rashan Gary said Clemson offered him $350k back when that was against the rules and NOTHING happened.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:23 PM ^
I'm no lawyer, but I'm confused.
They struck the section that allowed you pay a subscription service:
Use of Commercial Entity. It shall be permissible in all sports for an institution to obtain video of a future opponent's athletics contests for scouting purposes from a commercial entity that provides video recording/dubbing services
That part was removed. and replaced with the much simplified statement:
Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited
So how does Stallions being a commercial entity with a subscription service help Michigan if that exception was specifically removed?
October 25th, 2023 at 5:13 PM ^
So far as I can tell, they struck that (along with most of the rest of the bylaw) to make it more straightforward. But weirdly, they included in their published "rationale" that "subscription to a recording/dubbing service" is available.
Certainly makes it sound like AD personnel cannot scout in person, but they can subscribe to a service that records in-person. And that service is not defined anywhere, so far as I can tell. Seems like what Stalions was doing is exactly that. Maybe I'm missing something.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:23 PM ^
What’s this have to do with what’s happening here?
October 25th, 2023 at 4:27 PM ^
What this all says to me is that there’s more than enough ambiguity around this rule at very least to negate the possibility of all the BIG SCARY penalties that have been floated around.
A reasonable fine, maybe. But I think the NCAA is begging for a big lawsuit if they try to go too heavy have on this.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:29 PM ^
Why use lot word when few word do trick?
October 25th, 2023 at 4:35 PM ^
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but the more I learn about Stalions, the more I'm just convinced he was a maybe overzealous guy with maybe an obsessive personality (not in a bad way, but I am not a head shrink) and a real passion for Michigan football who literally did everything to prepare himself for working at Michigan.
This gig has to be his dream job and I'm willing to bet that he just sees it as a bump in the road rather than a fatal blow.
I don't think he's a bad guy, I think he's got some incredible hustle, and he tried finding some loopholes and got caught and is being investigated by a bunch of people who are so black and white that they no sense of imagination or discretion.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:42 PM ^
I don't think this is an unpopular opinion here but, probably is amongst OSU/MSU fans/media who think Harbaugh is a big poopy cheater who is only whooping ass because he has everybody's signals.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:59 PM ^
His obsessive need for approval and career mobility led him to ultimately cut corners to help him with his job. Certainly not uncommon, just the stakes are higher with this example.
October 25th, 2023 at 5:22 PM ^
To be a little morbid, Im a little worried the guy is on suicide watch right now. He lost his dream job, will never work at UofM again, and the whole world is clowning him right now. He’s probably not in a good place right now. I feel bad for him in that regard. His whole world crashed in a flash
October 25th, 2023 at 9:30 PM ^
At least he was suspended WITH PAY. That should help a bit.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:36 PM ^
The thing about this is, it's not like college football games are private affairs. Every college we play has a stadium that seats tens of thousands of fans. They sell tickets to anyone with money to pay -- some of them even advertise their games to let people know that tickets can be bought. There can't be any expectation of privacy here.
I understand that the NCAA has rules about scouting games off campus and I'm not saying the rule should just be ignored. But having someone go to an opponent's game is hardly a mortal threat to the purity of college sports.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:41 PM ^
I quit reading the title after the first 3 words. Just so exhausting.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:49 PM ^
I'm looking for the NCAA rule that says, "Get Harbaugh out of college football and ruin his reputation." Must be unwritten but that is the only rule that is relevant to the NCAA at this point. All this fancy parsing of language and history is great and I agree with lots of it but it sadly misses the real point of this which is enforcement of the unwritten rule.
October 25th, 2023 at 4:51 PM ^
Sorry, can’t read this post, I’ve gotta go back to X to get my in depth insight from the very astute rival fanbases. If it’s on X, it’s gotta be legit🙄
October 25th, 2023 at 5:22 PM ^
No need to establish a llc to create a business. You are just the sole proprietor. LLC is just to protect personal assets from business unable to pay its debts.
October 25th, 2023 at 5:32 PM ^
Pure speculation here, but if they can prove that Stalions and his network did these before he even volunteered at Michigan (back when he was working with Navy and whoever else), then doesn't that prove to some degree that this wasn't a Michigan "scheme"? I mean, unless they hired him knowing of his little network.