Four Ten Win Seasons in Five Years
Was just staring at Jim's record and thinking about history. He's in his fifth season here, and already has three ten-win seasons. Let's say--for argument's sake--that Michigan loses to OSU but wins the rest of its regular-season games and bowl in '19-'20. NOT a foregone conclusion, but a not unreasonable supposition.
If Michigan has won ten games in four of Harbaugh's five first seasons is there any reason at all to say he hasn't been successful? Does history look down on mgoblog and conclude that the hysteria here was anything more than myopic, especially given a corrupt and commercialized sport in which the university struggled to maintain some modicum of probity and sanity? Five seasons on and four ten-win seasons behind him--would there be some serious basis for complaint other than 'not beating OSU'?
Yes, this is a speculative exercise.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:24 AM ^
Where is your evidence OU is paying anybody? We've had multiple classes higher than theirs since Harbaugh has been here. They have a high powered offense and make the playoff every year, no wonder guys want to go there. Same with Clemson, we had higher classes than them in 2016 and 2017.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:38 AM ^
Lame excuse without proof. Maybe those kids like winning?
October 28th, 2019 at 8:45 AM ^
I think UMProud has it right.
For veteran M Loyalists it is not the quantity of the wins that matters--it is the quality of the win.
Bowl games matter.
Warde and Harbaugh can reverse engineer the schedule to stack up 'wins'--see Hawaii and East Carolina where UCLA and Notre Dame once appeared....
The fan base is tired of hearing about 2893 days since M beat Ohio State.
Really tired of it.
Beat Ohio State and re-enter the rivalry that proud Michigan teams promoted by their efforts.
Can you imagine how Bo would have handled his teams being watered down by "star players" (and a CAPTAIN sitting out Bowl games for self-promotion instead of playing their guts out for THE TEAM, THE TEAM, THE TEAM?
Bo would not reward those players with international vacations around the world,
He might however have taken certain players to Normandy.....one way.
A scholarship to the University of Michigan is a major life-changing event and while winning historic rivalry games has been Whack-A-Mole for years can we at least restore the university respect and team loyalty program standards that existed for more than 100 years?
Beat Ohio State and fulfill the spirit of your football scholarship by actually playing football and going to the earned reward of a Bowl Game representing the winningest team in college football history....
Don't ask the students and M Alumni to spend millions of dollars to support the team when the football program management cannot get players to support each other and honor the terms of their scholarships.
Beat Ohio State!
GO BLUE!
October 28th, 2019 at 9:27 AM ^
Don't talk about alumni spending millions of dollars on xyz until that $ goes directly into the pockets of the players like in the SEC, OSU, Clemson. Nice facilities and highly paid coaches are great, but until the playing field is even on where those funds go, don't use the $ = entitlement to wins argument.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:42 AM ^
It costs money and time to attend Bowl Games.
A small sample would be if only 10,000 M fans got to a game and only spend $1,000 each on travel, hotel, dining and tickets, etc,—$10M to UM and credit cards.
The incentives to support those efforts are lowered when some of the best players don’t play.
The pay the players thread was several days ago you can probably revive it if you try....
October 28th, 2019 at 10:04 AM ^
I love Bo and appreciate that grew up and became a fan during that era. The game and players are much different today than when Bo coached. How do you think he'd handle players who grew up in the internet age, thought the were entitled superstars in middle and high school before they sat foot on campus? Think he'd like recruiting via Twitter? He'd lose his mind dealing with players of this generation.
October 28th, 2019 at 10:25 AM ^
Bo would have had to adjust on players sitting out for Bowls, times are different in this regard where players are taking far more control of their careers. That said, he would have adjusted. My only issues wasn't that they sat, it was we weren't getting the players we needed to start this season ready with them sitting out.
Jmo, if you aren't in the CFP or Rose/Sugar/Orange/Fiesta bowls you are getting yourself ready for next season with bowl practices. Guys like McGrone, Gray, Villain, Hutch and many others on defense should have been getting reps and ready to play that game. There was a list of players I thought we would see but didn't make the field or only had a couple snaps. Imo, it's why McGrone, Anthony and others didn't seem ready when this season started.
October 28th, 2019 at 10:42 AM ^
Don't ask the students and M Alumni to spend millions of dollars to support the team when the football program management cannot get players to support each other and honor the terms of their scholarships.
What a dumb take. Is it a 'term of their scholarships' that players must risk their health and livelihood for a meaningless exhibition game at the end of their careers where the impact of an injury could directly cost them millions of dollars?
Bowl games matter.
No they don't. We can wish that they did, but this is a consequence (perhaps unintended) of the playoff system. Do you not see the hypocrisy in saying it's the quality of wins not the quantity that matters and in the same argument saying that bowl games (non-conference games against a random opponent, with no further season implications) matter and asking kids to risk their futures on it?
October 28th, 2019 at 11:53 AM ^
OK, then Harbaugh has only won 10 games in a season twice.
October 28th, 2019 at 1:03 PM ^
Would love to do it but I'm feeling more and more like defining our season by the Ohio State game is a losing proposition.
I don't think our best ever beats their best, and they haven't helped us much in the last decade and a half.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:57 AM ^
Yes, but if your definition of success runs straight into the simple fact that OSU is the purest sort of football factory and we aren't going that route what is your NEXT big move? Sit and complain forever? It's your lungs and gut, not mine.
Because we've been in that spot for a while.
October 28th, 2019 at 10:07 AM ^
that would equate us to ohio state of the 80's & 90's ...... that should make everyone throw up.
no Michigan fan should ever do that.
October 28th, 2019 at 1:24 PM ^
I have often wondered whether had we beaten them in 2016 what the stance toward Jim would now be. And of course we got clobbered last year, which feeds the negativity.
But--much as I would like to beat OSU--I also wonder whether beating them with any regularity is a possibility. Everyone's free to gnash and wail and secrete bile, but if they are clearly a better football factory than we are, is it really so smart to do so? We KNOW they were giving their players various benefits just a while back; we know that some of them don't have to pretend to play school; we know that Clemson players dope. I don't see how saying "prove it" every time someone states what's pretty obvious really advances the conversation.
I mean, let me know when you have the magic elixir; in the meantime, my question is whether shrill insanity is really indicated. As long as OSU is loaded with five-stars I personally don't have the answer. What I think I DO see is that firing Jimmy Harbaugh, at this stage, would be pretty stinking stupid.
Again, everyone can complain to their heart's content.
October 28th, 2019 at 6:03 PM ^
OSU is very good, but not Alabama, and 'Bama has lost at least one game each of the last nine seasons. And not to "football factories" every year:
- 2013 & 2017 - lost to Auburn
- 2014 & 2015 - lost to Ole Miss
- 2012 - lost to A&M
Their losses in 2016 and 2018 were to OSU and Clemson.
Heck OSU has lost to Purdue, Iowa, Oklahoma, Penn State, and Michigan State since 2015. We should be able to get a win every now and then, even if they are a death machine.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:38 AM ^
I think it unequivocally is a success. Particularly when you look at what he was coming into. Particularly when you compare us to most other college programs.
As I've stated many times, Bo, Mo, and Lloyd had worse seasons frequently (8-9 wins). The biggest difference is while they might drop a couple to Purdue and Iowa they more frequently beat OSU and MSU. At the time, OSU was nearly as snakebit with us as we are with them now when they had Cooper and Bruce. That and back then you didn't have 97.1 and its tool shed lineup and social media where people can ramp themselves up into an outrage echo chamber because Michigan football isn't living up to their lofty expectations set by unreasonable analysis, blind hope, or a denial of what the History of Michigan football is.
Michigans record under Hoke and RR was horrendous. Culture was damaged by Brandon. The latter Carr years had some pretty decent recruiting drop off.
Is everything perfect? No. Of course not. I feel we've swapped out Offenses too quickly. The play is sometimes sloppier than I want. But it's oceans better than it was.
And outside of Alabama and Clemson every team I look at with the same eye I use for Michigan has issues.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:45 AM ^
Not sure why this comment would get negged. I put you back to 0.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:09 AM ^
I agree with your post but did want to point out that while Cooper struggled mightily, Earl Bruce went 5-4 against Michigan.
October 28th, 2019 at 12:43 PM ^
Fair point. I sit corrected. I think part of my memory was skewed by a guy I knew (Buckeye fan) who felt Bruce was a failure against Michigan.
October 28th, 2019 at 11:37 AM ^
Hoke recruited very, very well for the most part. Harbaugh's best team to date (2016) was with all of Hoke's players.
He didn't walk into a dumpster fire with nothing.
October 28th, 2019 at 12:37 PM ^
That's fair to an extent; but he had several players that were just kind of broken under hoke; or positions that were under-recruited. The O line being one of the biggest ones. And our QB room wasn't setting the world on fire either.
October 28th, 2019 at 1:24 PM ^
Yeah, but we still have positions that are under-recruited.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:46 PM ^
You mean like DT and CB right now? No team is perfect. Harbaugh walked into a pretty decent position - it’s not like he took over for Mork.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:47 AM ^
Harbaugh has been a success here and will continue to be. Even if he goes 8-4 this year, he'll be a success here.
Also: people need to stop worrying about non-playoff bowl games. They're scrimmages at this point. They don't matter nearly as much as a) regular season games or b) they used to. Players and, increasingly, coaches don't care. A team's performance in a non-playoff bowl game is a very poor indicator of that program's quality.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:53 AM ^
How is 8-4 a success?
October 28th, 2019 at 9:43 AM ^
Because Rich Rod and Brady Hoke both sucked - apparently.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:17 AM ^
See, but here's the things: Florida sure seemed to care! I can point out MULTIPLE teams in the bowl games that cared last season. Why did we particularly not care? I'm kind of at the point where that just feels like an excuse because we got our butts kicked, if you ask me.
I don't disagree that the playoffs have changed the bowls and their importance but teams have chosen to care. Hell, when we played Florida in Orlando to end the 2015 season, I can guarantee you we cared. I was at that game and they busted their asses. The playoffs were around then. What changed? I think last year's team just gave up, plain and simple.
October 28th, 2019 at 10:23 AM ^
Well, obviously what changed is that we are a much, much better program than we were in 2015. So we didn't care about the bowl game vs. Florida nearly as much.
Sure, some players will still care about any given game. But no one can seriously argue that players, on average, care as much about bowl games now as they did 10 or 30 years ago. Just look at the number of players who sit out now. It's obvious. And because of the number of players who choose to sit out - whether that's on one team or on both teams - you can't in general use the non-playoff bowl games as a measure of a program's quality.
It's unfortunate. I liked the bowl games too. But until the paradigm shifts, which will probably come with players being compensated, bowl games are an increasingly diluted product.
October 28th, 2019 at 11:09 AM ^
Unless we win. In which case the Harbaugh cultists will be all over how it gives us great “momentum” going into the next season (it really doesn’t).
October 28th, 2019 at 8:51 AM ^
10 wins in 4 out of 5 years is good.
But 0-5 against Ohio State, 0 B1G Titles in those 5 years, and (what would be in OP scenario) a 2-3 record in bowl games?
If we're being honest, we can't exactly call that "success", and if you asked us 5 years ago to predict where M would be against OSU and in bowls... I highly doubt we would've predicted 0-5 and 2-3 and called that success.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:55 AM ^
Exactly. I feel like the definition of success is getting rewritten every year.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:58 AM ^
Well, I'm offering ten-win seasons as a possible definition. Again, discuss. Not in hazy theoretical terms but in the ones stipulated.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:14 AM ^
Yeah I get it, I just think I depends on the individual. Take 100 Michigan fans off the street and ask if 10 wins a season is successful and I bet almost all would raise their hand. Then add in the caveat of not beating OSU or even getting to Indianapolis and I bet most of those hands go down.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:57 AM ^
Coming into this year I viewed it as a one-game season so if we lose to OSU (which I’m not already counting in the loss column like most posters on here) I’d be highly disappointed. There’s no “successful” in my eyes with 0-5 against OSU with 3 of those games coming at home.
October 28th, 2019 at 10:51 AM ^
So you believed that a record of 1-11 this season, with the one win being against OSU, would be a success? Seriously??
October 28th, 2019 at 11:00 AM ^
Agreed, this mindset makes no sense to me. I mean I can understand someone saying they would rather have a 7-5 season with a win over OSU than a 10-3 type of season with a loss to OSU, but 6-6 or worse is a failure regardless of what happens against OSU.
October 28th, 2019 at 11:09 AM ^
What he's not stating is the assumption that if Michigan beats OSU then they're good enough to have won the rest of their games, so that's a successful season. There's peripheral success built into his argument, which nullifies it.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:59 AM ^
This whole conversation ultimately depends on what any individual considers successful.
I know this in no way would Jim Harbaugh think not beating OSU, Not winning the B1G, not going to playoff, and 3 losses a year is successful. So I am going to go the same way.
10 wins are good, looks good on paper, but add those 3 losses a year and it dims that light so many want to hang on.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:00 AM ^
Literally the only valid complaint that can be levied on JH is that he hasn't beaten OSU while they've been at their historical peak. And while that sucks, it's pretty understandable, given the state of each program when JH inherited the job.
Beat OSU in 2016 (and we came very close or arguably did), and we get to the CCG and likely the playoff. Beat OSU in 2018, and we get to the CCG and likely the playoff. Everything else is just noise.
He's got a winning or even record against every other B1G coach (probably about to be winning against Mork).
October 28th, 2019 at 9:03 AM ^
Jim came to UM at a most challenging time...
1) OSU was and still is in their golden era, Meyer took them from a top tier program to an elite program, recruiting and performing at a clip never before seen in their history.
2) MSU was still in their own golden era under Mork when Harbaugh showed up. Jim has essentially ended that and taken the state back, despite the absurd 2015 lucky win for MSU. MSU's trajectory is clearly downward.
3) PSU has "healed" from the Sandusky scandal, and is recruiting at our level. We should have won this year, but refs, night game, and self inflicted wounds left us just short.
4) Bad luck - 2015 MSU, 2016 OSU, 2019 PSU ; all these games were left close enough for us to lose, despite being the better team, and you can put that on the coaching. That said, it took some absurd bad luck and crappy officiating to lose those games, not to mention not having a healthy starting QB for 3 of the 4 OSU games.
5) He's doing all this in the B1G East, one of the toughest divisions in college football, and trying to do it in the changing landscape or the game which has turned the SEC, OSU, Clemson into football factories masquerading as universities, and elite college players are just amateurs prepping for the league....all while trying his best to keep UM competitive under some semblance of the old college-athlete model.
6) He's by no means a perfect coach and makes some head scratching strategic decisions, but overall, given constraints, he has performed at a B+ level. I have no doubt that if Harbaugh ran an NFL-lite football program where we openly paid kids $300K+ to attend UM (SEC style), allowed students to skip class altogether and take the majority of classes online, and had football make up 12 hours of their day on campus instead of 6, we would be a top 5 program every year, instead of just a top 10 program.
As much as we crap on Brian Kelly (and it was great to blow them out of the water Saturday), he has done about as good of a job at ND, given the constraints the university puts on him academically and to run a clean program. Harbaugh is in a similar reality. If UM is willing to go the route of the SEC, OSU, Clemson - he will be able to compete at that level every year. Until then, given the shifting paradigm of the college game, only so much can be done, and we will likely be competing for a playoff spot once every 2 or 3 years, instead of every year.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:12 AM ^
The destruction had been in place for years and rebuilding is always more difficult. What Jim has done to turn around an entire program is by definition successful. Onward!
October 28th, 2019 at 9:48 AM ^
Blew them out of the water quite literally, well done sir
October 28th, 2019 at 10:48 AM ^
this, unfortunately people are still under the assumption this is their fathers Big10 and no one is paying for recruits Like i said previously Saban went from a 7-6 opening season to 12-2 the next season, but in the midst of that 7-6 season he landed one of the most successful recruiting classes, which included julio jones, alabama was a shell of their former selves when he got their, so the excuses with kids going their because they win is some what true, but only half the story. I say all this to say much like the poster I quoted until michigan is "fully committed" to football we will always be the tier under osu,ou,clemson,uga, and alabama. given his constraints Jim is doing a hell of a job, and they may be empty to some, but id rather have 10 empty wins, than the 7 empty wins we were getting, and even if we were to slip past osu, does anyone on this board think we have the kids to go out and compete with the previously mentioned top tier teams ?????
October 28th, 2019 at 9:08 AM ^
See harbaugh?? Look at what beating a rival can do to this fanbase? Now go beat OSU and we’ll build a statue of khakis!
October 28th, 2019 at 9:10 AM ^
This is a pretty critical stretch for Harbaugh and the program as a whole, IMO.
Feels an awful lot like the same spot Beilein was in a couple years ago when the team hit a skid in January and looked listless, and many of us (some days myself included) were prepared to jump ship. Then they ripped off a few wins, then the plane crash, then the B1G tournament, then the final four trip...
There's a long way to go and plenty of time to fall flat on our faces yet. And I'm by no means predicting it to happen, but if this sudden flash of competence continues throughout the end of the season, including at least a good showing against OSU, I think Harbaugh should cement his status similar to what Beilein did. There will be some that won't accept it until we beat the team down south but there's the one point I'll agree with Klatt on; historically the two have rarely been on the same level at the same time and to expect Harbaugh to dethrone the buckeyes at possibly their highest point in history is asking an awful lot. To keep ditching coaches when they can't pull that off is just shooting ourselves in the foot and we'll keep falling farther and farther behind.
October 28th, 2019 at 10:41 AM ^
Why is it expecting too much? Michigan State and Penn State have both beaten out OSU for conference championships since Harbaugh has been here. People need to stop treating the Buckeyes as some insurmountable obstacle. They apparently only are for Harbaugh.
October 28th, 2019 at 10:54 AM ^
Oh no, I agree; I think they absolutely should be able to compete and beat them here and there, but it seems like the expectation was for Harbaugh and Michigan to become the juggernaut and take the spot as the elite team in the B1G in just a few years. That's what I think is unreasonable.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:14 AM ^
At some point he has to go above the floor expectations. That would be, for me at least, either win 11 games with a bowl win, beat OSU, or go to Indianapolis.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:54 AM ^
He has gone away above the floor. The problem is, that whenever he does that, he ends up setting a new floor. That's fine. I'm just looking forward to finally getting over the hunt in the game this year.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:23 AM ^
If he keeps getting 10 win seasons but almost always loses to OSU, I'd give him the full John Cooper decade. But I don't think he'll lose to OSU as much as Cooper lost to us, even if this year isn't the year for him to break through.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:29 AM ^
The difference between Cooper's situation and Harbaugh's situation is that Michigan was absolutely beatable most years that Cooper coached. We would usually have about 4 losses each of those years and he still managed to lose to us.
OSU, meanwhile, is one of the top 3 programs in the country and has been since JH got here. The situations aren't really comparable.