Non business-type crootin or a National Championship? Hypothetical choice
The hot topic before this NSD is of course what I would consider the "business-like" recruiting tactics of one Jim Harbaugh and staff. My personal stance on the issue is I don't believe that big time success (multiple B1G championships or 1 NC in a decade) is obtainable without these business-like recruiting practices. Sadly, I don't think these two things are mutually exlusive anymore. I don't like these types of practices and makes me feel a bit icky, but it also got me thinking - do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?
I'm thinking about the benefits of the other players, coaches, students, alumni, fans etc. If a few kids have to "sacrifice" in order for the collective to benefit, is it worth it?
So - would you be OK with this kind of stuff happening with recruiting every year if it meant we'd get 2-3 B1G championships and 1 NC every 10 years?
January 26th, 2016 at 10:17 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 10:22 AM ^
are landing on their feet and have some great opportunities ahead of them. The offer from UM absolutely didn't hurt them one bit. They are still getting a full ride to play college ball somewhere. Forgive me if I don't give 2 shits if they weren't deemed good enough for UM.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:24 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 10:31 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 10:33 AM ^
Apples and oranges much? Undrinkable water is not the same as getting a free ride to your second choice college.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:35 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 10:38 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 10:46 AM ^
Maybe I'm wrong, but won't Harbaugh have a chance to address these issues once signing day has come and gone? If so, I'd like to wait and hear what he has to say before I condemn him.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:49 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 11:39 AM ^
That is not only totally presumptive, but also unfair. There are typically two sides to every story, and I, for one, like to reserve making my decision until both parties have had a chance to speak.
January 26th, 2016 at 12:29 PM ^
I don't see Harbaugh commenting regardless. It would look like he's bashing a kid even if he is just sharing his side of the story.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:55 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 11:07 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 12:35 PM ^
I don't like the academic scholarship comparison. Academic scholarships have specific, measureable numbers. If you fall below GPA X, you lose your scholarship.
I'm on board with the idea that you need to perform and improve to keep a spot but evaluating football talent is more of a gray area than academic performance.
January 26th, 2016 at 12:30 PM ^
It's what my physics professor called "trying to add apples and goats"
January 26th, 2016 at 10:34 AM ^
Of course, you're being obtuse for the sake of it. If you really can't see that though, no one can help you.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:37 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 10:51 AM ^
is fine. Viewing UM or Harbaugh in a bad light because of it is a bit much I think. Posters freaking out and writing 4+ paragraph posts on how it sits with them is a bit much.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:55 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 11:37 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 12:13 PM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 10:37 AM ^
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January 26th, 2016 at 1:09 PM ^
This issue is becoming a typical "either or" argument vs a "both and" discussion.
The following assesments are true & factual based on what is currently known:
1) Harbaugh is doing what he things is best for Michigan football and doing so in a legal way.
2) Weaver is disappointed. (I'm not even touching the Swenson thing). He is disappointed because an opportunity which was once available to him has been taken away. Yes, there are other opportunities, but they are not the same. From Weaver's side of the story, this is not through any fault of his own, simply Michigan has since decided not to honor the initial opportunity becuase they feel they have better options than Weaver.
In this scenario, Weaver has every right to feel disappointed because something has been taken away from him. And even though Weaver may still be better off than he was at the begining of the process, something has still been taken away. At the same time, it does not mean Harbaugh has done something wrong. Future recruiting success will be the only measure of whether Harbaugh has made a mistake or not.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:38 AM ^
No, this would be more like they can't have Fiji water, but instead Aquafina.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:47 AM ^
But those stupid square bottles don't fit well in my car's cupholders.
So I usually just grab a beer instead.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:55 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 10:35 AM ^
that these kids even find themselves in greater position to be successful following this. In many cases they recieved more offers at schools that they could be successfull at and see potentially more playing time. Still getting a free education.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:56 AM ^
Correct,. When certain guys get Michigan offers, it improves their resume and they look more attractive to other schools. Maybe not the case with every 4-5 star croot, but certainly 2 and lower 3 star croots will improve the quality of their offers. It'd be nice to keep the lines of communication open, hopefully that was done, but we'll likely never know.
January 26th, 2016 at 1:10 PM ^
Also keep in mind that recruiting is a 2 way street. If a kid who is committed to a school gets a better offer, they have no issues either taking visits, decommitting or just not returning phone calls or texts from coaches. You will never hear a coach complain about how he was misled by the young man.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:24 AM ^
I think this is a valid point that isn't brought up enough. Harbaugh hasn't comitted any violations, minor or major, through these practices.
I know we want to be able to sit on our high horse and say we are better than these types of tactics, but perhaps the problem isn't Harbaugh but rather the system that allows a coach to pull a scholarship from a player for no reason and at the last minute.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:46 AM ^
Or perhaps the horse is too damn high for reality.
Did anyone have a moral outrage over Bo offering scholarships to kids who he KNEW damn well would likely never see the field, just to keep them away from other schools? You can say "but these kids stil got a scholarship!" all you want, and I would counter "So will Swenson and Weaver. Just not at Michigan."
January 26th, 2016 at 11:35 AM ^
this is a great point. Bo didn't have to turn anyone away because there was no scholarship restriction. At least Harbaugh is getting in front of it to say "look at your options" so that the kid can get a full ride somewhere AND actually play.
January 26th, 2016 at 11:56 AM ^
we will keep seeng these posts because we are a split society, there are those who feel participation tropheys should go to all and there are those who feel only the winner gets a trophy. Like Harbaugh said college football is the last bastion. Once our society either bans it or makes it so equal it will sap the soul out of you to watch it and yeah even girls will be forced onto integrated teams these hurt feelings posts will never stop.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:28 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 10:32 AM ^
Or just don't offer a bunch of kids that you doubt you'll have room for all for the sake of generating some early recruiting buzz.
January 26th, 2016 at 11:19 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 10:34 AM ^
My biggest takeaway from all of this is that a disturbing number of people think that behaviors that don't break official rules are fine. I keep seeing that argument here and think it's totally crazy. There's a place for personal/ethical standards beyond what shows up in written rules.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:40 AM ^
I don't disagree, but do we really know enough of the facts to judge the ethics of the matter? I would say no, so we have to trust in Harbaugh until he gives us reason not to. This isn't it, IMO.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:44 AM ^
Harbaugh likes to offer a bunch of low three star prospects as a way of creating a buzz and then cut them loose if they don't get the message after the coaches stop contacting them.
There's an extraordinarily simple solution, don't offer prospects that aren't up to your talent standards to begin with.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:58 AM ^
I don't think it's that simple, and I don't think you know either. Let's stop pretending we know all the facts. Harbaugh has so much as warned us about being judgmental.
January 26th, 2016 at 11:34 AM ^
It's not Harbaugh's ethics that are in question, but those in the fanbase that believe merely doing what some legislative body's complex rat's nest of rules states is okay, is not good enough.
Patting people on the back for finding loopholes is wrong, more so by the ones doing the patting. This is Michigan, and how we treat people is important, and doing it well does not adhere to some NCAA recruiting rules.
I, for one, am not in favor of rug-pulling to 17-year-old kids. Sure, the players do it, but they're 17. The coaches are supposed to be the adults teaching these kids how to treat others right and how to honor commitments. Now, I'm not saying that Harbaugh and staff are rug-pulling, but those okay with rug-pulling that's within the rules are wrong, and not what we aspire to at Michigan.
January 26th, 2016 at 12:48 PM ^
What about the ethics of rushing to judgment based on incomplete information?
January 26th, 2016 at 2:26 PM ^
And I believe that's wrong too. However, two things:
- I was trying to make the point that I believed you missed, not make an ironclad stance on the ethics of the entire situation.
- If everyone waited until they had truly complete information, there would be no judgment until well after the fact. People made judgment on the Fab Five, and it wasn't until years later when most of the information came to light. I'm guessing we'll never have all the information on that one. But yes, rushing to judgment is bad and everyone usually ends up losing as a result; something that's happening in this recruiting saga.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:58 AM ^
Trying to find morality in a multi-billion $ business that pays coaches and administrators millions while the players get the smallest share of the pie while simultaneously partaking in a sport that appears to be causing lifelong head trauma seems to be a pointless venture. College football left morality in the dust a looooong time ago. If you have a major problem with what Harbaugh is doing, then you are by definition a hypocrite for being a fan of college football at all.
January 26th, 2016 at 11:06 AM ^
At what point is Harbaugh going to realize that cash and hookers are what kids want?
It's okay to feel conflicted about something. It's not the same thing as hypocrisy. You don't have to bend over backwards to find arguments that only serve your need to root for Michigan football without concern.
January 26th, 2016 at 11:07 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 11:29 AM ^
if they were at the short end of this kind of approach (in business, personally, college scholarship, etc.) if they would think the same thing?
January 26th, 2016 at 10:49 AM ^
All these other schools report a bunch of secondary recruiting violations year in and year out and they are the ones up in arms about Harbaugh's ways. Shut your mouth, have a seat and watch as we retake our place amongst CFB elite.
January 26th, 2016 at 10:51 AM ^
January 26th, 2016 at 11:19 AM ^
A verbal offer/commit is not binding on anybody and you should know that as a commit and a coach. It's not happening until that LOI is signed and nobody should be moving anywhere until that happens.