donde esta [Bryan Fuller]

Mailbag: Army Aftermath Is Fun Comment Count

Brian September 11th, 2019 at 1:21 PM

On the basis of one somewhat and one very weird game, how would you revise the assumptions made in 2019 5Q/5A? Hopefully the answer is not at all, but … ugh.

-Dirk

I don't think anything about the defense has changed significantly. MTSU had 200 yards on an all-perimeter gameplan before Backup Events, and Army is a service academy triple option. If anything I think the situation there feels significantly better than it did preseason:

  • Uche looks like a Winovich-level dude and seems set to be a full time performer going forward.
  • The Ambry Thomas colitis scare is over.
  • Jordan Glasgow grabbed the WLB job and looks like a player.
  • Aidan Hutchinson is going from potential star to star.

The downers aren't downers at all if Michigan gets Dwumfour and Jeter back from injury. We knew Ben Mason wasn't going to be ready to be at DT. The one thing that is a bit concerning is the lack of immediate impact from Chris Hinton and Mazi Smith, and Uche might provide a way around that.

Offense… well. Uh. Missing DPJ and Runyan plus having a clearly dinged Patterson is a drag. But Patterson's main issue this season has been his decision-making, and that was his issue last season. If that isn't tracking towards an improvement for whatever reason (transition costs, that's just his ceiling) Michigan's not going to approach our optimistic preseason takes.

One thing that's probably making our offense takes more negative than they should be: fumbles. Michigan lost three all of last year. They've lost five already this year. They were probably due for an increase just as they regress towards the mean, but that's absurd.

Offense is stock down, but not as catastrophically as a lot of people seem to think.

[After THE JUMP: positive questions that reflect a faith Michigan will right the hahah no just more BPONE]

Hi Brian/Ace/Seth/Whoever Reads Mailbag If You Even Still Do It Anymore:

Is there a more fascinating and perplexing enigma of a big time college coach than Harbaugh? He has an uncanny ability to turn programs around and coach his players up to a near-championship level. But at the same time his team often looks totally lost and confused.

What is it about Harbaugh that, despite a talent and coaching advantage, makes many of Michigan's losses (and some of the wins) so grueling? So many of these games feel like bad dreams and seem to be characterized by a special Harbaugh brand of ChaosBall (I'm trying not to use the term 'sludgefart').  The Army game was Exhibit A of this. 

Why does Michigan so rarely plays its best game? Is he just a horrible in-game coach? Is he asking his college-aged checkers players to play professional 3-dimensional chess? I still think Harbaugh is a great coach but I'm amazed by the dual-nature of his coaching identity. Thoughts?

Sincerely,

A perplexed L'Carpetron Dookmarriot

I get a portion of this sentiment but just last year Michigan hammered Nebraska 56-10, Maryland 42-21, Wisconsin 38-13, and Penn State 42-7. The slide at the end of the year wasn't hard to diagnose, either. Michigan's pass rush got nerfed since it needed its DEs to get it done and those DEs were hurt, and Ohio State ruthlessly exposed Brandon Watson's lack of speed. The bowl game was low-effort, down four players and then several of their backups.

These were personnel issues. Michigan got away with zero pass rush from their DTs and a 4.6-4.7 third CB for most of the year. They turned out to be unable of coping with OSU because of it.

That said, I do think Harbaugh's a bit of a chaos agent who may provide a ceiling on the program that's lower than what we want. The 2018 recruiting class is a good example: Michigan was extremely disorganized, whiffed on a ton of guys, and came in with the #22 class in the country. Harbaugh revamped and Michigan recovered but that class is likely to provide a critical deficiency at one position or another—the secondary most likely—that costs Michigan at some point.

At least the defense has reached a measure of stability under Brown. I think Michigan will get there at some point; I don't think it'll be regular.

 

Honestly yes. Corner is a spot at which there's a lot of correlation between high rankings and NFL success, and unlike some other spots there are close to no examples of "college greats" at CB who the NFL does not have any interest in. Michigan's CB recruiting was bouyed by the Lewis-Hill-Thomas run of instate stars; add in David Long and that's a recipe for a half-decade of success.

But since adding Thomas, the #90 guy in the composite, in 2017 Michigan has not gotten a top 100 corner. In 2018 they got Myles Sims (composite #170), but he's already gone and the rest of that class consisted of three stars. Last year's class had Jalen Perry (composite #200), but he was processed by Georgia and has landed in Ann Arbor with nary a whisper despite a clear need at the position—one even more pronounced in spring with Hill out. 2020 looks set to be another class without a blue-chipper even if Michigan closes on one of their two main CB targets.

Pretty much the only issue that rankles in last year's class is the way Michigan handled Julian Barnett's recruiting. Barnett would have continued the string of top-100 instate corners that Michigan needs to bat 100% on if they're going to continue expecting the hard-nosed press man guys Don Brown relies on.

Yes thank you this is a giant pet peeve of mine. 5.1 is a lot different than 5.9. 5.10 vs 5.19 is not worth communicating. The basic stats site I go to, cfbstats.com, does this and my internal reaction to seeing 5.26 is to round it. How much of my life have I wasted rounding football yardage numbers with two decimal places? Too much! Let's get the torches and pitchforks and march on cfbstats dot com!

48656691906_6ca48c6221_k

where's that dude [Bryan Fuller]

McCaffrey got a couple chances. He threw a bad ball on an RPO that may have been also a bad read if Collins, wide open on a slant, was part of that read. And then on the third down after Patterson left with his oblique aggravation he had what looked like a blinding keep read that he did not keep on. It's possible that if he'd executed either of those plays he would have been given more rope. He didn't.

No. Michigan's offense isn't much different for most of the players. The WRs run routes, the running backs are running most of the same plays, and the OL is blocking power and inside zone and a little outside zone like they almost always have. We haven't seen the full breadth of what Michigan's trying to do—I certainly hope—but the early Harbaugh offenses what with their weekly T-formation and "here's a weird trap I just installed" had to be tougher for the OL and TEs.

The two positions that probably do have more on their plate are slot receiver, which is now doing some running back stuff and executing a lot of different motions, and quarterback. I don't think Patterson did a good job with the new offense last weekend—and neither did McCaffrey. So… yeah.

98%. There is some high school kid on ShowYourAss.com who said this. Or maybe middle school kid. They give those dudes phones now.

It is inappropriate to tar and feather middle schoolers; it is equally inappropriate to infer anything about actual adults based on what middle schoolers and one sorry-for-partying type named Mitch are saying on the internet. Anyone writing articles about what four people said on twitter should be immediately fired.

One cupcake at home for the opener. One marquee game that alternates home and away, ideally with the home game coming in years when MSU/OSU are on the road. One mid-to-low level P5or high level G5 home and away (Arkansas, Boise State, UCLA, Memphis, Colorado) unless you can get 2 for 1s or one-offs for some of them. Notre Dame two years off, two years on.

Service academies? Nope!

I'm not sure this is a defensible statement yet. Wilton Speight did look worse as a junior but how much of that was him and how much of it was the chaos passing for an offensive line that purported to protect him is hard to tease out. I kind of think the latter was most of it, because Speight got knocked out by a previously impotent Purdue rush in game three and, uh, the rest of that season happened.

I'm frustrated with Patterson this year but I'm also not going to make a call about whether he's regressed after two games. Rudock was horrible for the first half of his lone year in Ann Arbor, and then he got drafted to play the greatest position in sports: backup QB.

If you go by week one, Uche. If Michigan manages to work him in 75% of the time going forward, Tarik Black. But also still Nico.

Comments

Sambojangles

September 11th, 2019 at 2:20 PM ^

Anyone writing articles about what four people said on twitter should be immediately fired.

This is great. On my version of political twitter, they call it the Black Ariel effect. A little while ago, Disney announced that the actress to play Ariel in the upcoming Little Mermaid movie will be black. Some online news outlet found four people on twitter complaining about it, and wrote articles implying that the whole internet was racist. And there are plenty of other examples. It's bad journalism, and comes from people with an agenda to make the other side look bad.

Champeen

September 11th, 2019 at 2:28 PM ^

Black actually played the most offensive snaps outside of the lineman.  More than Patterson and that french running back we just picked up.

But if you are saying 'targets' is 'utilizing', and not 'snap count', then yeah, probably correct.

matty blue

September 11th, 2019 at 2:32 PM ^

literally could not agree more re: 5 questions.  guy i sat next to on saturday said he thinks offenses have figured out don brown...i said we have no evidence this season to indicate that.  i'm fine with wondering if the ohio state debacle will repeat,  but that's a different conversation.

as to 5 questions offense?  fumbles, man.  we've lost more fumbles than anyone in the country.  dead effing last.  cut that rate to the norm, and we beat mtsu by 40 and army by 21.  i'm not completely in love with the offense, but between the fumbles and patterson being less than 100% (and he almost certainly is) i don't think we have any way of knowing anything right now.

mgobaran

September 11th, 2019 at 4:50 PM ^

I'm not even asking to cut the fumbles in half. Just count the Metellus fumble return for a TD! Shea doesn't fumble the 2nd time, Michigan has the 14-7 lead and Army doesn't have momentum back on their side. For all we know, Shea is a more confident ball handler after only fumbling once, and Turner isn't benched for VanSumeren for missing a block, and BVS never fumbles the third ball. 

That could be a completely different game if the refs call one play correctly. 

UofM Die Hard …

September 11th, 2019 at 7:09 PM ^

I completely agree here, cut the turnovers in half, not realistic to remove completely obvi (as the kids say) But...man, the board isnt such a hot mess right now if that happens. 

I think Shea is a little banged up, I think JH wants to keep building his confidence and putting DM in there would/could further negatively impact that, I think they are being very conservative with game planning right now before B1G hits (as we did last year, then Wisconsin got stomped on), we are missing big pieces of the puzzle in DPJ (punts) and Runyan (all league) ...so on

Its too early to panic 

StirredNotShaken

September 11th, 2019 at 2:36 PM ^

I have to disagree with this statement: "Rudock was horrible for the first half of his lone year in Ann Arbor, and then he got drafted to play the greatest position in sports: backup QB."

Clearly, the best position in sports is to be a professional punter. Very little risk of physical injury. Well paid (relatively speaking). Pretty low pressure.

Kevin13

September 11th, 2019 at 2:45 PM ^

You talk about Mccaffery not making a good read in one play being thrown in and then not getting more playing time because of it. If that is the reason he’s not getting more playing time then that is BS on Harbaughs part. Shea has made numerous mistakes yet he gets a ton more rope. Dylan comes in for one play it’s not perfect and he gets yanked. Need to keep opportunities equal if you expect players to feel fairly treated and all held to same standard 

Trader Jack

September 11th, 2019 at 3:32 PM ^

Shea is better than Dylan, so Shea gets more rope than Dylan does to make mistakes. I don't understand what Dylan has shown in his limited time on the field to make so much of the fan base clamor for him to unseat an established starting quarterback. Was it the four times he dropped back to pass against MTSU, resulting in two sacks, one tipped pass that was (fortunately) caught, and one real completion?

Shea is a much more proven and, frankly, better quarterback than Dylan is at this point. He's one of the best quarterbacks we've had in a while at Michigan. Yet people want to bench him because Dylan... is fast, I guess? I don't get it.

KBLOW

September 11th, 2019 at 4:41 PM ^

There is a bit of a strawman argument. The vast majority of posts I've seen (minus a few HAWT takes during and right after the game) have said that DCaff deserved more time in the Army game where Patterson was very much not playing his best and whose injury was putting the game and even rest if his own season at risk. Only a small handful say it's a good idea for Dylan to start.

As far as skills, against MTSU Dylan also had two passes to open receivers he found that were on target and the DB had to resort to PI to stop the completions. And he was very much on target in garbage time last year. What he has shown is that he's fast AF in the run game and even if he truly has less ability to run the offense, he's looked on par with a hurt Patterson. Or at a minimum good enough to play when the starter is injured and way off game. 

Mgoscottie

September 11th, 2019 at 5:50 PM ^

I completely agree that Shea is a much superior quarterback, but to me it appears a possibility that Dylan might do really well running a read option because he's done really well in the past with it and Charbonnet and him together might be fits for a defense. And sometimes in college football that's enough to have a successful offense. 

Kevin13

September 11th, 2019 at 10:13 PM ^

All Shea is proving is he can fumble the ball, miss wide open receivers and make horrible reads on zone runs. Without a fake punt in first half we score zero points. He lead the team to 7 points in a full game against Army. That is unacceptable. Dylan has talent and has shown it while getting limited playing time.  Being stubborn and sticking with Shea  just because he won the job out of fall camp is not good coaching.  If any other position was playing as poorly as Shea they would make changes. Same standard needs to be held for the QB. Dylan isn’t going to do worse then only leading the team to 7 points against an Army team 

Don

September 11th, 2019 at 2:47 PM ^

“How much of my life have I wasted rounding football yardage numbers with two decimal places?”

Our RBs rushed for all of 126 yds on 37 carries—or 3.405405405 yds/carry—against a defense that has zero guys headed to the NFL, in spite of the fact that our OL had a significant weight advantage over the Army DL.

Is it too soon to conclude that, like with Wellman and Barwis before him, much of the breathless hype about Ben Herbert is just that, and that he doesn’t really do anything fundamentally different from other S&C guys at major P5 programs?

Don

September 11th, 2019 at 4:26 PM ^

I was poking fun at Brian's crankery about two-decimal yards-per-carry numbers. I don't disagree with him about the value of the second decimal, but 3.42 doesn't make me angry when I read it.

Regarding S&C, you'd have to not be paying attention to have missed all the glowing hype from the program, the players, and Michigan-centric media about Ben Herbert and how his weight, conditioning, and nutrition methods are going to turn our guys into unstoppable ravening beasts, with the clear implied message that he's doing something fundamentally different and better than other S&C coaches. 

Am I saying he's to blame for whatever ails the team on offense? Not at all—I have no doubts whatsoever that he's a highly knowledgeable and capable coach, but I am questioning whether his methods by themselves are giving us an advantage relative to what other S&C coaches are doing for their teams.

 

 

Reader71

September 11th, 2019 at 5:16 PM ^

Our defense was on the field a long time in that game and was just as good after 2 overtimes as it was in the first quarter. That’s the C in S&C, so he gets credit there.

Regarding strength and offensive line play — strength is at best the third most important thing for a lineman. Technique is #1 with a bullet, and Herbert has no involvement there. Foot speed is #2, so he does have some responsibility, although Mother Nature has a lot more.

Our team is strong and fast and well conditioned. That’s all you can ask of him.

StephenRKass

September 11th, 2019 at 3:05 PM ^

My question has to do with Runyan in particular and the OL in general. Will Runyan be back soon? Is the OL heading towards being good after many years? I feel that pass protection makes a difference, and running lanes make a difference, and that the OL was not there with Hayes instead of Runyan. Also concerned about DT, and whether and to what degree Dwumfour and Jeter are able to play.

The Denarding

September 11th, 2019 at 3:33 PM ^

One thing brought up here and my it took Trace McSorley a year and a half is RPO puts a lot on the QB.   I wonder if Shea’s decision making makes it such that if Nico is not the first read he doesn’t get the ball.    We talk about Ole Miss and their RPO and Shea dealing but I’m unsure how effective taking away the first read was and how much scramble and throw bailed him out. 

WestPalmBlue

September 11th, 2019 at 4:24 PM ^

I am not 'clamoring' for the backup but this comment is spot on.  If Dylans talent level is so high that we need to find a way to get him on the field.......it seems like that oppprtunity has presented itself.  Also it has crossed my mind that Harbaugh sticks with Shea out of a sort of obligation... Shea came here from Ole Miss when he could have gone many places.  Shea came back for another year when he may have gotten a look in the NFL.  If Harbaugh were to elect to go to Dylan then Shea's football career opportinities might effectively end immediately.  At least it would be more of an uphill battle for his NFL shot if he doesnt get the chance to play through this slump.

reshp1

September 11th, 2019 at 3:37 PM ^

And then on the third down after Patterson left with his oblique aggravation he (DCaf) had what looked like a blinding keep read that he did not keep on. 

I don't think that's the case. The option guy ended up hitting him after the handoff, so a keep probably gets even less than the give. 

BuckeyeChuck

September 11th, 2019 at 3:40 PM ^

I'm surprised you're willing to give up a home game (all the game day revenue + the increased threat to lose a game) to travel to a Boise St. or Memphis.

Colorado I was surprised by too, but I suppose it makes sense to travel there, being a P5...my view of Colorado is probably tainted by their recent decade of suckiness.

Mr Miggle

September 11th, 2019 at 7:21 PM ^

I agree. Michigan isn't going to schedule two home and home non-conference games a season. No program like Michigan does that, especially not with nine conference games. Our schedules are already ranked among the toughest. And that's 6.5 home games a year and Michigan wants seven. 

We had a horrible home and home with UConn. I'm opposed to anything like that again. Memphis could be a repeat. I'd 100x rather play Army at home than on that horrible blue turf in Boise.

My ideal schedule is a near cupcake, a decent team that will take a payday instead of a return visit. (That will include some P5 schools.) and a high level home and home. It's that decent team that's hardest to find.

MileHighWolverine

September 11th, 2019 at 4:30 PM ^

My only question is what would this all look like if Denard were back there again? Would the O take off or would we have the same issues we had with him before? It seems like on the reads to keep he would have been GONE at the very least.... instead of running into a stacked box again and again.

Goggles Paisano

September 11th, 2019 at 4:33 PM ^

On the scheduling question, ND two years on - two years off is still too much for my liking.  I have been watching that rivalry for a long time now and am honestly tired of it.  If we never play ND again in my lifetime, it wouldn't bother me in the least bit.  I would rather play other big boys from the rest of the P5 conferences on a home/away basis.  

TrueBlue2003

September 11th, 2019 at 7:24 PM ^

I disagree.  Two on, two off is perfect.  Provides the opportunity to play other big boys, insofar as they're available and keeps regular enough a great rivalry and BY FAR the most attractive individual non-conf opponent. I agree that it'll be fun to play Texas and OU here and there but that's fun for the novelty, mostly.  It doesn't come close to Michigan-Notre Dame.

ND is just such a classic rival, it garners huge attention, and I like the proximity of the rivalry.  I love going to games at Notre Dame, which are a lot more accessible from Michigan than any other non-conf big boy.  Great game day experience.  It's a rivalry of mutual respect which makes it so much more enjoyable in person than games at EL or Columbus and the history is really good.  I love that it gives the fanbases, recruits and national media reason to talk about and show Desmonds catch, Rocket's return, Denard's comeback, etc.

If you like what's great about college football (history and tradition), you have to love the M-ND rivalry.  Going away from that for too many gimmicky one offs that fade after the novelty is gone is like inter-league baseball.   Meh.

And for the record, I am going to the Washington game next year and I'm super excited to go to Austin for the Texas game but those are bucket list things that only need to be experienced once and that kind of travel isn't feasible every year so the two on, two off is perfect.

Pants McPants

September 11th, 2019 at 4:51 PM ^

Harbaugh is a risk-averse coach by nature, but he's had such great defenses every year (top 10 in YPP 2015-18) that he felt taking risks on offense wasn't actually all that risky, because they'd get the ball back anyway once Hurst got off the opposing QB and they peeled him off the turf and punted. Yes, that was "risky" for Harbaugh.
The D this year is probably going to be good, but it's not any of those. Adding that he does not trust Shea all that much and it's possible you are going to see more Tresselball than you want.

Personally, I would just throw the damn ball to Nico Collins. He's open. If he's covered, he's still open. And if he's triple covered against Army, he's still freaking open.

Reader71

September 11th, 2019 at 5:03 PM ^

I think Harbaugh’a time coaching in the NFL may have actually been detrimental regarding organization, which is largely a function of discipline, in my opinion.

Take Hudson lining up offside on 3rd and 4 in OT. If an important player does that in the NFL, there’s isn’t much you can do because he’s very good and NFL backups are generally orders of magnitude worse than the starters. But in college, I think he MUST come off the field for at least a snap and to get a good earful, both as punishment and as to set an example to the rest of the squad. Plus, you push Kovacs out there and bring in Gil and it’s not a huge drop off. Especially because the next down is first and 10, not something high leverage like 4th and 1.

Harbaugh never does this. Guys jump offside and stay in for the next play. Guy busts a coverage and stays in for the next play. Guy misses a read and stays in for the next play.

And because there’s never that kind of punishment for sloppy plays, there’s less of a deterrence effect. Plus, sometimes it’s just good to get a guy off the field to get in the moment coaching before sending him back out.

Now, I’m not a crazy person who wants to take our best players off the field on important downs against Ohio. But now is the time to do that kind of thing, to set some deterrence, so that maybe our important players don’t fumble-fuck around on important downs against Ohio.

GoBlueSPH

September 11th, 2019 at 9:01 PM ^

Maybe players earn some sort of good Will by making great plays.  It’s not worth punishing/embarrassing players that are generally on point for making one bonehead move. Like the offsides on JM was discounted by the amazingly smart fumble recovery for TD. 

Those that aren’t making great plays don’t get that leeway. Like how turner got benched for at least a quarter after miffing a block that created a fumble 

TrueBlue2003

September 11th, 2019 at 6:50 PM ^

Completely agree with the non-conf scheduling and would just add that I'd prefer the cupcake to be a Michigan MAC school at least half the time.  Just more fun for the state.

Blue Durham

September 11th, 2019 at 6:59 PM ^

Regarding the scheduling question:

Michigan's athletic department desires 7 (at least) home games every season.  With a 12 game season, that's 7 home and 5 away.

The problem with Brian's answer is that when OSU and MSU are both home, Michigan only plays 4 of its 9 Big Ten games at home, and 5 away.  That's the entire road allotment given the above, so all 3 non-conference games must be home.  Hence probably why Notre Dame is home this year as well.

Any home and away set-up is also going to come up with the same problem - when both OSU and MSU are home, so is that prime P5 game.  Unless Michigan goes with a "quantity" home slate of 8 games and a "quality" home slate of only 6 games, but with both OSU and MSU.

uminks

September 11th, 2019 at 10:34 PM ^

Harbaugh and the Michigan football program would have been in a much better position by now if he would have beaten OSU 2016. This would have really boosted recruiting in 2017 which would have countered the poor 2018 recruiting. I was hoping this would be the year Harbaugh could win the B1G and get into the playoffs and our recruiting would improve. But now it is looking like another 9-3 to 8-4 season which may harm recruiting in 2020. I guess Harbaugh will end up more like Lloyd Carr and hopefully one of these seasons he will get lucky and win a B1G and reach the playoffs. May be in 2021?

Bill22

September 12th, 2019 at 12:32 AM ^

You’re giving up on this season already?  Cumong man!  We lost an ugly game to ND last year, and rattled off 10 in a row.  We can still have a great season.  I would much rather get all the fuckups out in weeks 1 and 2.  

Wisconsin will be a great game, that we will win.