Who's Got It Better - Facts

Submitted by BornInAA on September 11th, 2019 at 6:04 PM

Look, a lot of whining about coaching lately. But really, who else would Michigan hire?

Harbaugh is better (and cleaner) than any other available coach.

The facts below speak for themselves (coaches pre-1900 and less than a season omitted)

 

Harbaugh is nearly even with Carr on win % and probably will tie/surpass this year. Very close to jumping Moeller too.

Carr also had OSU troubles. He only beat them once in the last 7 years of his career.

 

I am way happier with Harbaugh than Hoke and RR.

 

Perhaps one day Harbaugh will approach Bo’s record. Perhaps not. I really don’t think we can get a better coach for Michigan at this time.

 

Name                                    Term                                                     Win %

Fielding H. Yost                 1901–1923, 1925–1926                  0.833

Fritz Crisler                          1938–1947                                           0.806

Bo Schembechler             1969–1989                                           0.796

Gary Moeller                      1990–1994                                           0.758

Lloyd Carr                            1995–2007                                           0.753

Jim Harbaugh                     2015–present                                    0.741

Bennie Oosterbaan         1948–1958                                           0.65

Harry Kipke                         1929–1937                                           0.632

Brady Hoke                         2011–2014                                           0.608

Elton Wieman                    1927–1928                                           0.594

Bump Elliott                        1959–1968                                           0.547

Rich Rodriguez                  2008–2010                                           0.405

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ijohnb

September 12th, 2019 at 9:38 AM ^

Not a huge fan of this mentality.  I don't see a scenario this year where anybody should be running Harbaugh off, but I don't think the fanbase should kind of be "ahhh well, as long as we win a few games."  This is a great program, Harbaugh has unlimited resources, we bring in a lot of talent, he is paid like the cream of the crop and spends a bunch of money on assistants, analysts, etc.  This should be a legit BIG championship contender year in and year out. 

Joined: 09/21/2009

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drjaws

September 12th, 2019 at 10:22 AM ^

And if he's not and only wins 10 games a year then what?  Who are you gonna bring in?  You think there is anyone out there who would 

a) leave where they are to come here and 

b) can coach at UM better than Harbaugh?

We all WANT to win the B1G and a National Title (and magically do it without being shady as fuck on the recruiting trail, but I believe those are mutually exclusive).  I also believe if Harbaugh leaves, who is one of the best college coaches in America, we're in for decades more years of 7-5 years with a slew of random coaches.  Can't win any kind of championship without at least winning 10 games so.....

Joined: 02/26/2014

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crg

September 11th, 2019 at 6:14 PM ^

I'm relatively happy with Harbaugh thus far - could be better, but we all know from the past 15 years or so that it could be much worse.  I would expect things to continue to improve long term also.

I'm not sure I would say he's the absolute best/cleanest coach out there (as the OP suggests), but there would not be very many who could compete on both aspects.

Joined: 04/30/2015

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JFW

September 12th, 2019 at 9:28 AM ^

I take 'clean' as a year by year thing. So... I think we always have to be on guard. And as much as they can be a pain, I think the beat writers we've had on Michigan are will help keep us clean. I can't see Chengalis or (formerly) Baumgardner not reporting or digging on bad rumors. I'm not sure how the entire Nassar thing happened at MSU without someone coming across it in the media, but apparently it did. That said, I really think Harbaugh has done a great job so far. 

And man... I get *so* tired of the 'conservative', arrogant, or 'stubborn' narratives; or the idea that we have to 'move on' or find someone else to 'get to the next level'. 

A) We don't have all the facts that go into a game plan, 

B) He's fired Drev, Pep, and jerked around the offense in an attempt to get where we want. 

C) And people don't want to face this; we were flat out bad before he got here. Not just in talent, but in the roots and culture of a good football program. 

D) Another reality that people don't seem to work into their thinking: We've never been 'Bama/Clemson elite. The 90's were alot of fun for me as a student and fan; but I had a couple 8-4 seasons in there. The biggest difference is that we were regularly beating MSU and OSU. I definitely want that to improve that, but C'mon. 

E) THERE IS NO NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP COACH STORE. So stop looking at what we have and bitching thinking we can just open the job and guys with fool proof credentials will come in and win us that national title next year, cleanly. I think people (in my case relatives) alot of times bitch because the games aren't as exciting as they want. They'd rather see a 4 yard pass to a slot receiver that gets stopped in its tracks than a 6 yard run. 'Oh There goes another run up the middle!!!!!' 'Dude, we got 5 yards...' 

If you want to move on, fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But it's a stupid opinion unless you have someone in mind that can make us win at the next level and do it cleanly. 

there, I'm done ranting. 

Joined: 10/20/2010

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KennyGfanLMAO

September 12th, 2019 at 10:09 AM ^

Harbaugh was as close to a sure thing as anyone. Instead of a world-beater, we got a consistent, high floor guy who has been close to a breakthrough for 2 of the last 3 years. And I will go to my grave believing he was absolutely robbed in 2016. We'll see if a breakthrough happens this year, but I won't be asking for a new coach if it's just another 8-10 win season. 

Joined: 11/04/2009

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Haskin’s Bandaid

September 11th, 2019 at 6:23 PM ^

If you look at his overall record, he is doing a fine job at UM and really, who could complain? I mean UM had RR and Hoke before. Now, if you have shitty friends like me who root for Sparty and Ohio, you would only hear about the rivalry records and his record vs ranked teams and his road record....it gets old, but now that UM is in year 5, it is starting to wear a little. I guess it’s all how you look at it. Would the fanbase be happy with 10-3 every year with no wins vs Ohio, no conference championships, or CFB playoff trips? We are about half way there my friends...

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wolverinestuckinEL

September 11th, 2019 at 9:21 PM ^

Not much of an alum honestly.  I wouldn't be able to sit in the same room with someone who rooted against their alma mater or for another team.  Unless they went to Penn State.  You graduated from MSU good for you root for them.  My nextdoor neighbor is a great guy and an OSU alum.  I hope we kick both of their asses this year but I hold no ill will towards people's college decisions.   Now the Dbag up the street who knows nothing about football, didnt graduate from MSU and talks too much shit can go fuck himself.

Joined: 09/21/2010

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Mike Damone

September 11th, 2019 at 8:45 PM ^

Two relatively mutually exclusive views, with only small overlap: 

1) Harbaugh is the best Michigan's coach right now, and

2) Fanbase satsified with 10-3, no BT Titles, no playoffs. 

I would say most Michigan fans would reject 2), but still believe 1) is correct.  Who else, realistically, would we want as our coach right now?  How is Gruden doing with his Oakland Raiders "turnaround"?  How much fun is it to be a Tennessee, USC, Oregon, Nebraska, Florida State, or Ole Miss fan this year?  I can't think of anyone else other than Harbaugh that I would want coaching Michigan right now. 

Remember, we were one foot/a bad call from an OSU win and making the BT Title game/potential playoffs one year back.  Know it is a game of inches - but damn.  And yes, Michigan fans definitely have the "red ass" from the Buckeyes game last year.  Will need a big win to get the mojo going - can't think of a better place to do that than next week in Madison.  Watch all the whiny bitches jump back on the bandwagon if that happens - and I believe we are going to kick some Badger ass.

Still 2-0 and the future is bright.  Nice post, OP.

Go Blue!

Joined: 09/02/2017

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I'mTheStig

September 12th, 2019 at 10:12 AM ^

Regarding #1, and I'm NOT saying fire JH at all, is unlike a lot of the other posters here, I do not think we have to "settle" (if that's the sentiment) for JH becuase "who else is going to coach us".

The problem is, will any person be accepted in Ann Arbor?

RR could have been the second fucking coming of Nick Saban and he still would have got run out of town.  From LLLLLLLoyd's meddling, to the media, and to this crazy fanbase, RR never had a chance from day 1. 

Let's be clear before the negs start, I'm NOT saying RR didn't make mistakes.  I'm saying this fanbase is crazy when it comes to coaches.  If people are satisfied with 10-3 (and 4-6 of those wins coming against tomato cans) but losing to ohio state every year, then they got what they wished for.

Joined: 11/02/2018

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MGoStrength

September 11th, 2019 at 6:23 PM ^

I'm happy with JH for the most part, but I do think he underachieves in relation to the talent he has on his roster.  He's consistently fielding a top 10 talented roster nationally, but he has only finished in the top 10 of the final rankings once, and that was at #10 in 2016.  I am hopeful the main problem is the offense and that Gattis will eventually fix that, but I am still concerned there is a larger JH problem that caps his ceiling.  I'm also not sure I'll ever accept losing to OSU every year.  I can understanding winning one out of every 3 or 4, but never kinda sucks to accept.  As much as Hoke sucked, he was more competitive against OSU than JH has been.

Joined: 07/29/2010

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UMfan21

September 11th, 2019 at 7:25 PM ^

My oregon friend warned me upon Harbaughs hire: prepare yourself for one "wtf" loss per year.  He saw it at Stanford.

 

Cant say I've noticed it that exact pattern, but it's another way of saying Harbaugh generally underachieves.

Joined: 09/28/2009

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Blue-Ray

September 12th, 2019 at 4:58 AM ^

Was just about to say the same. But his get blamed on the Coordinator somehow. 

And his are waaay more WTF than what Harbaugh has had. 

OSU's were at full strength and even if not their 4 and 5 star backups aren't the drop off regular teams face...And are rated higher than ANY player on the roster of the teams he lost against. 

Joined: 05/14/2018

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G. Gulo of the Dale

September 11th, 2019 at 9:13 PM ^

I think that one would have to have strange expectations (and be bad at math) to conclude that UM has had "2-3 wtf" losses a year... and somehow there is room left to also lose to really good teams??  How many losses do you think we've had?  We've averaged 3.5 losses a year, and ten of our 14 losses have been to teams ranked in the top twelve!  The two worst teams that we've lost to in the Harbaugh era were the 2016 Iowa squad (8-5) on the road, and the SC team (9-4) in the 2017 bowl game.

"Wtf" losses would seem to designate losing to a mediocre opponent, which is something that Harbaugh has done a good job of avoiding; your second point is more apropos, i.e., not winning the big games.   

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MGoStrength

September 11th, 2019 at 9:22 PM ^

I think that one would have to have strange expectations (and be bad at math) to conclude that UM has had "2-3 wtf" losses a year.

Here are the teams JH has lost to that were less talented than UM.

2015: Utah, MSU (this still allows for losing to OSU who was more talented)

2016: Iowa (this still allows losing to OSU & FSU, both of whom are more talented)

2017: MSU, PSU, Wiscy, S. Carolina (this still allows for losing to OSU who was more talented)

2018: ND, Florida (this still allows for losing to OSU who was more talented)

So, that's 9 games in 4 years he lost games to teams he was more talented than, which is 2.25 per year.  So, like I said 2-3 per year.

Joined: 07/29/2010

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MGoStrength

September 12th, 2019 at 7:38 AM ^

What's the definition of less talented, cumulative recruiting ranking?

247's Team Talent Composite

https://247sports.com/Season/2018-Football/CollegeTeamTalentComposite/

Even by that measure not sure 2018 Notre Dame and 2017 PSU were less talented.

2018 ND was #10 in team talent, UM was #8.  2017 PSU was #19 in team talent, UM was #7.

Joined: 07/29/2010

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Rafiki

September 11th, 2019 at 9:40 PM ^

Wtf losses are ones that don’t make sense usually because the team does stupid shit that causes the loss. 2016 Iowa and 2017 MSU are perfect examples. Most of your other “9” aren’t.

2015 Utah: his first game on the road against a team that ended up being pretty good that year. Game was close till the end when the QB who came at the beginning of the summer wasn’t on the same page as the freshmen receiver. Not what I’d call wtf. 

2017 PSU & Wis: both on the road against teams that were better than UM with their 2/3 string QB. Not a wtf loss. PSU was ugly but not wtf. They were better. Wisconsin was frustrating cus it was close until the 2nd string QB went out with an injury. Shitty but not wtf. 

2018 ND: first game of the season on the road with new QB and new starting O linemen. Game was close till the end. Not a wtf the loss. 

2016 Iowa and 2017 MSU def wtf losses. 2017 SC and 2018 FL are bowl games but sure. That’s 5 games in 4 years if you count the fluke punt. 2 of which are bowl games. Def not 2-3 a year. There is one year in there where he lost 2. 

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MGoStrength

September 12th, 2019 at 7:53 AM ^

Wtf losses are ones that don’t make sense usually because the team does stupid shit that causes the loss.

Fair enough.  By that definition there aren't many wtf losses...Meyer probably has more.  Most of JH's are simply losses to good teams, and close games, but teams he's still more talented than.

Joined: 07/29/2010

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Gucci Mane

September 11th, 2019 at 10:29 PM ^

There are 4 current coaches with more wins at their current school since 2015 than Harbaugh. 4. Chryst at Wisconsin and Peterson at Washington are 2/4 and are only a couple games ahead, with much easier schedules. 

We can add Meyer, and the programs of UGA and OU with multiple coaches also. So 7 teams have had more wins than Uofm has since Harbaugh arrived. 

Do we think our talent is better now than 7 ? Sadly no. Recruiting must improve if we want better results. 

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MGoStrength

September 12th, 2019 at 7:47 AM ^

JH's legacy is he beats teams he's significantly more talented than the vast majority of the time and never beats teams he's less talented than.  He's really good at winning 8-10 games every year, but can't beat the top 10 teams.  That's nothing to scoff about.  But, unfortunately that also means he'll never win a NC or the B1G, because OSU is consistently a top 5 team.  So, you have to ask yourself is that good enough?  Right now yes because it's better than RR and Hoke, but at some point it may not be.

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chunkums

September 11th, 2019 at 7:39 PM ^

I feel like his teams have performed at a level that is very consistent with the talent of his recruiting classes. His players have been pulled from the following recruiting classes (redshirt seniors are the first numbers):

2015: #30, #6, #4, #20, #37 - Finished #12

2016: #6, #4, #20, #37, #8 - Finished #10

2017: #4, #20, #37, #8, #5 - Finished unranked

2018: #20, #37, #8, #5, #22 - Finished #14

It seems like his teams have performed at about the expected level considering our recruiting. Hopefully the addition of some young energy in Gattis and Nua will help that recruiting move up a bit, and Gattis can help us get over the hump on offense.

Joined: 06/30/2008

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MGoStrength

September 11th, 2019 at 8:53 PM ^

I feel like his teams have performed at a level that is very consistent with the talent of his recruiting classes.

Let's use 247's team talent composite to compare the talent to the final ranking

 

2015: Finished #12, Team Talent Composite #9 (-3)

2016: Finished #10, Team Talent Composite #8 (-2)

2017: Finished #40, Team Talent Composite #7 (-33)

2018: Finished #14, Team Talent Composite #8 (-6)

 

So, he's averaging 11 spots lower in the rankings per year than the level of talent he's had.  The one teams that's consistently more talented than JH's UM teams is OSU and they've beaten him every time.  The other teams that are comparable are here:

 

2015:

Beat #15 Team Talent Composite Florida

Lost to #3 Team Talent Composite OSU

Beat #21 team talent composite PSU

Lost to Team Talent Composite #23 MSU

2016:

Lost to #5 Team Talent Composite OSU

Lost to #4 Team Talent Composite FSU

Beat #20 Team Talent Composite PSU

Beat #22 Team Talent Composite MSU

2017:

Lost to #2 Team Talent Composite OSU

Beat #17 Team Talent Composite Florida

Lost to Team Talent Composite #19 PSU

2018:

Lost to #1 Team Talent Composite OSU

Lost to #10 Team Talent Composite ND

Lost to Team Talent Composite #12 Florida

Beat Team Talent Composite #13 PSU

 

The most talented team he has beaten in his 4 years is 2018 PSU who was #13 when UM was #8.  His second best win was against Florida in 2015 when they were #15 and UM was #9.  He has never beaten a team more talented than his.

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