Who's Got It Better - Facts
Look, a lot of whining about coaching lately. But really, who else would Michigan hire?
Harbaugh is better (and cleaner) than any other available coach.
The facts below speak for themselves (coaches pre-1900 and less than a season omitted)
Harbaugh is nearly even with Carr on win % and probably will tie/surpass this year. Very close to jumping Moeller too.
Carr also had OSU troubles. He only beat them once in the last 7 years of his career.
I am way happier with Harbaugh than Hoke and RR.
Perhaps one day Harbaugh will approach Bo’s record. Perhaps not. I really don’t think we can get a better coach for Michigan at this time.
Name Term Win %
Fielding H. Yost 1901–1923, 1925–1926 0.833
Fritz Crisler 1938–1947 0.806
Bo Schembechler 1969–1989 0.796
Gary Moeller 1990–1994 0.758
Lloyd Carr 1995–2007 0.753
Jim Harbaugh 2015–present 0.741
Bennie Oosterbaan 1948–1958 0.65
Harry Kipke 1929–1937 0.632
Brady Hoke 2011–2014 0.608
Elton Wieman 1927–1928 0.594
Bump Elliott 1959–1968 0.547
Rich Rodriguez 2008–2010 0.405
September 11th, 2019 at 9:11 PM ^
Good points, but just a couple things to nitpick:
1. Looking at a composite of overall talent doesn't tell us where the talent is. For example, in 2017 we had a very talented group of freshmen and sophomores, but our experienced players were mostly gone and the ones that remained were from weak recruiting classes. We returned the third least production in America that year, then lost multiple quarterbacks to add to the misery.
2. An average over 4 years isn't very informative since averages are heavily skewed by outliers. 2017 was an outlier for the reasons I listed above. It's sad to see Harbaugh doing worse than expected in the other years, but 2-3 spots in the rankings is a tiny fraction of a single win.
PS: Did you edit your post? I feel like it was a lot shorter when I replied.
September 11th, 2019 at 9:17 PM ^
Do you have a better way of assessing how JH has performed in relation to his talent? I guess one could go by the 2-deep, but that would take a lot of work and would change week to week based on injuries. So, while those are good points, and I wouldn't put too much stock into any single season, there is an obvious trend towards losing to more talented teams. He has never beaten a single team in his 4 years that was more talented than his. That is damning.
September 11th, 2019 at 9:21 PM ^
It is pretty damning, but I think (hope?) that a lot of that was the offensive scheme he brought with him to Michigan. When he wasn't able to out-talent teams, his running game died a fiery death and it was tough to win. I'm hoping that changes with the new scheme that uses modern concepts and deception. Fingers crossed.
September 11th, 2019 at 9:25 PM ^
I think that's what we're all hoping for, but nonetheless, those aren't great numbers. He's recruiting well, but his on the field success in relation to his talent is not great.
September 11th, 2019 at 11:37 PM ^
Yes point spread
September 11th, 2019 at 9:13 PM ^
Two opinion based metrics against each other. That's a new one.
Using the coach's opinion we wouldn't have a National Championship in '97.
Our 4-star line backer were gonna stop Zeke in '15? But I guess our 5-stars D. Green and Morris should've kept it close.
September 11th, 2019 at 9:29 PM ^
That's why you use the team talent composite instead on single guys. There are always outliers, but over an 85 man roster those outliers will iron themselves out. The same is true for a 3-star Jake Ryan or Mo Hurst who were significantly more talented than their recruiting profiles.
September 12th, 2019 at 1:57 AM ^
Mgostregnth- do your finishes again, but with S&P+ instead of pointless poll rankings.
September 12th, 2019 at 7:57 AM ^
do your finishes again, but with S&P+ instead of pointless poll rankings.
lol, no thanks. If you've got a good argument to the contrary why don't you do the work and present your findings. You've got mine :)
September 12th, 2019 at 9:45 AM ^
Got em'
September 12th, 2019 at 1:49 PM ^
You could have looked up the S&p+ in the time it took you to reply to my comment lol. I think you know the results already anyway.
September 12th, 2019 at 2:23 PM ^
You could have looked up the S&p+ in the time it took you to reply to my comment.
By that logic you could have looked it up yourself in the time it took you to comment in the first place.
I think you know the results already anyway.
I actually don't know S&P as well as I do recruiting rankings. S&P is more about how good your team is on a given year versus how talented they are. S&P involves coaching, talent does not. The best judge would probably be comparing talent to S&P instead of either one to W/L to be honest. But, like I said, you have my argument. If you think there is a better argument then prove it. If not, you're just speculating.
September 11th, 2019 at 9:24 PM ^
Harbaugh is an underachiever. Lloyd was too at the end of his career.
James Franklin has a Big Ten Championship and did it with a thinner roster coming off of sanctions worse than Harbaugh ever had.
That does not sit well with me.
September 11th, 2019 at 9:26 PM ^
James Franklin is a worse coach who made a better coordinator hire. Hopefully Harbaugh's recent coordinator hire was a good one.
September 12th, 2019 at 8:09 AM ^
Harbaugh is certainly a better on field coach.
...but in the college game, recruiting and staffing are part of coaching.
September 12th, 2019 at 12:23 PM ^
True, but Franklin's career is much more than just the two Moorhead years. Penn State got worse in his first couple years as a coach and he lost to Brady Hoke's dreadful 2014 team. We'll see how Franklin's coaching chops look at the end of this year. I have a feeling Rahne was a really bad OC hire. The offense dropped significantly last year and I expect it to do the same this year.
September 12th, 2019 at 5:49 PM ^
Harbaugh took a pro team to the super bowl. Period. How many coaches in the NCAA can say that?
September 12th, 2019 at 9:24 AM ^
My biggest knock on Harbaugh is every year his Michigan teams play undisciplined football (mostly on offense, but the D at times too). Too many damn penalties at key moments, missed reads, mental fuck ups, etc. I've said this before on here, but I suspect he coaches the kids like they're in the NFL as opposed to kids still learning the game. They need constant drilling, reps, and discipline...I can't think of any other reason of why the players always make mental errors...always.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:26 PM ^
People who want Jim Harbaugh fired should be punched in the dick
September 11th, 2019 at 6:47 PM ^
So should the people shitting themselves with anger over the possibility of Harbaugh calling plays. His teams have scored a bunch against some damn good teams over the past 4 years.
September 11th, 2019 at 7:18 PM ^
Aside from the JOK era, offense has never been the problem. Hell, they put up 39 in Columbus last year.
And I'm not saying I'm not excited for Gattis. I think his offense will be pretty effective by November.
It's Brown's defense that always worries me. Because when it's not clicking, it's god-awful.
September 11th, 2019 at 7:22 PM ^
I loved the Don Brown hire, but the shine definitely wore off in Columbus last year. No team should ever score 62 points against us.
He just had no answers for what they were doing, and that worries me.
September 11th, 2019 at 10:53 PM ^
Dude, they put up like 19 when it counted. OSU stopped giving a shit ~40 points into the ass kicking.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:33 PM ^
Jim Harbaugh has been a disappointment. It's okay to say that. Doesn't mean he's a bad coach or that he should be fired. Just means he hasn't met the collective expectations of the fan base and has disappointed. If we get an 8-4 year or worse with a bad a loss to OSU then he should be on the hot seat going into next year.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:51 PM ^
I don’t think he should or would be on the hot seat no matter what happens this season. I am a believer in Jim and I think he get all over the hump this year but if he doesn’t it would be foolish to fire him. What other good coach in their right mind would come here after we fired our handpicked Michigan man just because he didn’t beat Ohio state or go to the playoffs?
September 11th, 2019 at 11:27 PM ^
No matter what happens this season? So if we go 2-10 you won't think he should be on the hot seat next season? I realize it's a dramatic example but you made a dramatic statement.
September 11th, 2019 at 7:23 PM ^
I do not agree with this in the least. Part of the problems with this fan base is its inflated expectations compared to recent success. 8-4 is still better than the majority of Hoke and RR and is on par with Carr's and Moeller's worst years.
I'm as frustrated as anyone with OSU results, but Harbaugh has not lost one game against average or below competition. Everyone who has beaten him has been at least decent, and like it or not that would've included Army.
Are there some baffling games/strategies/play calls? Of course. But outside of teams who traditionally have more talent or who the rare coach who is rarely out schemed, there is no one we could reasonably hire who would put us in a better position from year to year.
We have the most brutal schedule remaining in the country (until that changes after the fact which is everyone's favorite Michigan game in which the quality of opponent changes dependent on if Michigan won or not), so it's going to be great when shit hits the fan.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:33 PM ^
the measurement shouldn’t be win %, or hoke/rr; it should be progress towards championship football. By that, I am not saying harbaugh is the wrong guy either. However, it’s time for him to show evidence that he can/will improve the offense, which is the weakness of this team
If coach O from LSU can figure it, why can't harbaugh ?
Be the ceo of the team and let your Executives do their job
September 11th, 2019 at 7:24 PM ^
Are you kidding me? Are we basing Coach O "figuring it out" on one game?
This fan base is unbelievable....
September 11th, 2019 at 8:17 PM ^
LSU has a tremendous natural recruiting base, academic ability is not an issue, and they have a proven army of effective and loaded bagmen. Any good coach should be able to be very successful there.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:36 PM ^
0-for against the domestic violence school with 0 trips to Indy in 5 years isn't good enough at a place like Michigan. Save your words, it's just not good enough. There are no excuses.
"BUT THEN WHO DO WE GET THAT WILL BE BETTER?????" There's a man called the AD getting paid huge money to figure out the answer to that question.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:51 PM ^
Exactly.
The people downvoting and threatening violence against those of us who have the opinion are simply clinging to the hope we all felt back in December of 2014 and seemingly are refusing to admit JH just isn’t as good as they wanted him to be. Every single person here thought he was our Saban and would be the one who became what Dabo is now.
It hasn’t happened and the preponderance of the evidence is showing that it most likely is never going to happen.
The football team is around to win titles. JH isn’t doing it. Warde needs to go find someone who can. For the money JH is being paid, 99% of all football coaches are in play to hire.
September 11th, 2019 at 7:08 PM ^
Or maybe it’s because the poster you replied to has either already written us off this year as not making it to Indy or doesn’t know that Harbaugh has only been here 4 years. Either way, it’s a shitty post deserving of all downvotes
Also, you’re an idiot if you think there is a preponderance of evidence suggesting we will never win any championship under Harbaugh. It’s just a really stupid take
September 11th, 2019 at 7:18 PM ^
Does the performance against Army give you confidence that this team is going to beat ohio state? Does the past 4 years under Harbaugh give you confidence that this team is going to make improvements necessary during the season to be competitive with ohio state?
September 11th, 2019 at 7:34 PM ^
Does Chris Peterson losing to Cal,
Les Miles losing to Coastal Carolina,
Matt Campbell struggling against Northern Iowa give you hope they'd do better against that well-oiled recruiting machine down there?
September 11th, 2019 at 8:37 PM ^
Michigan was one bad spot from beating osu. To say that Michigan won't beat osu is just a stupid fucking take.
September 11th, 2019 at 9:47 PM ^
And to keep referencing the one time Jim almost beat OSU (read: still fucking lost) but it was just those dastardly refs that screwed him as proof that Jim is right there and about to break through and beat OSU and win the B1G is such a stupid ass tired old take, it actually is running Jim’s offense right now.
Come up with something better to keep your hopes alive that Jim is worth the money he is being paid and is worth all the attention he brings on himself and is actually going to win a title, any title, ever,
Because he isn’t. Ever.
I love Michigan football more than almost anything in the world, I loved it before Jim showed up and I will love it after he leaves.
My allegiance is to the program - not to Jim fucking Harbaugh.
Dude is not the answer. I don’t like him as a person and like him even less as a coach. He had proven in his time as a head ball coach, that he just isn’t one of the greats. And why would we settle for less than that? This is fucking Michigan - not Penn State.
I guess I didn’t realize we are all just cool with being 10-3 every god damn year and getting our asses blasted by OSU. I would hope we would want more than that. Maybe the last decade of shitty football from RR and Hoke sucked the life out of this fandom and we are back to being cool with essentially what Carr gave us - but I would rather be Bama, Clemson, and OSU.
And I’m not gonna apologize for that.
September 11th, 2019 at 10:02 PM ^
Helluva post. Cult of Harbaugh out in full force tonight
September 11th, 2019 at 7:33 PM ^
Really? I fundamentally disagree with you.
Since the 2016 Iowa loss, I would say the team has regressed under Jim.
Until that game, the program felt it was ascending and ever since, it feels like it it spinning its wheels and moving further away from OSU.
Let me try these ad hominems out here - you’re a fucking idiot if you keep believing JH is magically going to turn everything around and all of a sudden start beating OSU with any regularity and start winning East and B1G titles.
It’s just a childish and stupid fucking take to believe that.
September 11th, 2019 at 7:50 PM ^
It's not totally insane to think Harbaugh can start beating OSU and winning the division. The third best college coach OF ALL TIME according to career winning percentage just retired there. Let's pump the breaks a bit about how there's no way he can beat OSU.
September 11th, 2019 at 8:41 PM ^
He doesn’t have to magically turn everything around. He quite literally has to win one more game against a team now not coached by one of the best coaches in college football history. Just that one win would have put us in the B10 championship game 2 out of the 4 years Jim has been coach here. So tell me again why there is a preponderance of evidence of Harbaugh never being able to beat a non-Urban Meyer OSU?
September 11th, 2019 at 9:51 PM ^
Reread your post again and slowly - try to understand how ridiculous the argument you are desperately trying to make is.
”He could have won something, but he lost. But he ALMOST won something - so that counts as a score for me and against you!”
September 12th, 2019 at 12:53 AM ^
So your “preponderance of evidence” of Harbaugh never winning a championship here is based on 4 losses to OSU when they had one of the best coaches in college football history, with two of those contests being close enough that a couple plays were the difference in the outcome? And me saying that is stupid is the ridiculous part of our conversation? Maybe you should look up preponderance in the dictionary
September 12th, 2019 at 9:57 AM ^
Dude, please stop.
The "evidence" says JH is ofer against ohio state.
You keep repeating opinions and presenting them as fact.
It does not matter "if" the refs had spotted the ball differently, "but" most of those 62 points points came after the game was in hand, "if" JH isn't coaching against the best coach in ball. All of that are excuses -- not evidence.
...and "if" my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.
September 11th, 2019 at 8:27 PM ^
According to wiki, Dabo went 0-5 against Clemson’s main rival, the mighty USCar, and didn’t sniff an _ACC_ championship over longer. So, yeah... Oh, & look again at how long it took coach B to turn UM BBall into contenders. So, yeah, I can have some more patience, even while being just as frustrated as everyone else that having rescued the program, (the comparison to RR & Hoke is even more ridiculous if you look at conference record, where again he’s basically tied Carr, who had one magical 1997) it doesn’t look so promising that the next step into championship contenders is coming soon. I do hope we can get some wins over OSU soon tho. We have .500 or better against all other Big10 powers (& ignoring ND b/c I feel like ignoring them)
September 12th, 2019 at 8:14 AM ^
Actually, his wiki article clearly shows that Dabo made it to the ACC championship game in his first full year as head coach at Clemson. He then won the ACC championship in his third full year as head coach.
So no, it did not take him 5+ years to get to the championship game or win it.
September 11th, 2019 at 8:55 PM ^
Vinny the Sparty!
September 11th, 2019 at 7:20 PM ^
The University of Michigan is an academic institution that happens to have an athletic department. It’s not the other way around.
September 11th, 2019 at 7:32 PM ^
"We graduate almost all of our players." "Players come here to play school." "(Coach) has demonstrated tremendous character." These are comments that start appearing right at the beginning of a coaching regime starting to collapse.
Pointing out that the current coaching staff won't take this team to the level of competing with our southerly neighbors is not in any way asking for a cheater shitbag regime like they run down south.
I want Harbaugh to get the monkeys off his back in the next couple of seasons, but from everything I've seen so far it is not very likely.
September 11th, 2019 at 8:26 PM ^
My head understands this fully...my heart does not always obediently follow the lead of my head. I am a Jim Harbaugh fan but I do have rising concerns.