What are the arguments supporting B1G/Petitti’s suspension
We’ve heard all the arguments in Michigan’s favor, and how it seems likely that we would be granted an injunction should it come to that. However likely that may seem, there will be arguments presented in court for the conference. What is the legal defense that could persuade the court to deny the injunction?
November 9th, 2023 at 9:04 AM ^
Then fuck Eisen for calling him weird. And this has to stop. I used to be called that because I was so hyper competitive that nobody would relate, except of course the 1 in 1000 who were the same way. Harbaugh isn't weird at all to me... He is locked in to the ut almost level of competitor e thought which makes mundial things seem so meaningless, and it comes across as aloof
November 9th, 2023 at 9:56 AM ^
You mean Eisen's co-host.
Why is Eisen letting some clown co-host on his show is the question.
November 9th, 2023 at 8:46 AM ^
One interesting legal angle is whether both the school and Harbaugh institute litigation against the B1G. Since the school can be punished for Harbaugh's acts and how they govern and respond to findings or allegations of misconduct can impact NCAA and other penalties down the road, the school and Harbaugh do have somewhat divergent legal interests (which is why, among other reasons, they have separate lawyers and why Harbaugh submitted his own response to the B1G on top of the school's. And why in the NCAA case, the school on its own accord suspended Harbaugh -- it did that in its own self-interest.)
November 9th, 2023 at 8:47 AM ^
There's really not a great argument in terms of legal enforcement - if Harbaugh had been directly tied to the sign stealing and was still actively/until recently still actively doing it then you could argue the opponents are in a position where they can't respond properly and Harbaugh has an unfair advantage. But this has been out there for weeks, there doesn't appear to be a direct connection to Harbaugh, and reasonable mitigation methods such as just changing your signs are available and easy to deploy. And on the other side, you're denying Harbaugh a chance to do his job, he'd lose money (I assume he wouldn't get paid for these games), and the precedent you'd be setting is pretty high. The Big 10 is a private org so they have more leeway to make dumb decisions but I still think a reasonable finder of fact is going to say "you've got an ongoing investigation anyway, there isn't any clear connection to Harbaugh, and the cost to UM/Harbaugh is so much higher than it is to you/NCAA/other teams and is very hard to mitigate in the future" that they're likely to upload the injunction.
November 9th, 2023 at 8:58 AM ^
Assuming the Connor Stallions allegions are true, then UM broke the NCAA in person scouting rules.
only violation that related to one game infraction was a half game suspension for the relevant coaches (from memory).
Multiply that by 30 (for the alleged 30 games) for staff who leveraged the info provided by Connor.
Question remains - did anybody on UM staff know (ncaa investigation required to know)?
Also - ncaa infraction board on record saying in person advanced scouting provides limited competitive advantage. So worse case is, on basis Hhead Coach is responsible for all infractions, JH is banned to end year.
that’s my take. Let due process play out is the most appropriate (non social media driven) approach.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:01 AM ^
Petiti wants his Giamatti moment, nothing more.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:04 AM ^
Well, based on only theory and conjecture their best argument is “because I can and because I said so”. Violating due process to appease the blood thirsty crowd before a full investigation is tantamount to an execution before presentation of discovery. While it took the NCAA 6 years to complete the Bill Self investigation, it looks like a complete rush to judgement and the B1G does not need to intervene here at this point. It would be one thing if the NCAA wasn’t moving on it already. I’m not saying Michigan isn’t at fault but it still doesn’t excuse penalties before full, fair process.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:04 AM ^
Why would all the big 10 suddenly turn on Michigan to this degree willing to risk this much?
Could they have danced with the devil and the devil sought his due?
Have any other teams been atop the conference for a couple of years or more? Was their success a problem for the league?
Everybody else squeaky clean? Well, I guess we’re gonna find out and not by choice.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:05 AM ^
Michigan does have one potentially promising legal argument, which is this, in broad outline.
All the schools in the B1G are also members of the NCAA. Meaning all the schools are governed by the same two sets of bylaws. Therefore, the two bylaws should be read together as the real governing documents of the league and the games. You can't and shouldn't read either standing alone, but only together. The games aren't governed only by the B1G bylaws, but instead by the B1G bylaws, the NCAA bylaws, and the NCAA rulebook as an integrated, indivisible whole.
The B1G bylaws have a sportsmanship clause that isn't really defined. The NCAA has a very detailed rulebook, much of which involves sportsmanship. Therefore, the B1G sportsmanship clause should be read so as to incorporate the NCAA's detailed sportsmanship rules and the B1G commissioners power in a case that is covered by the NCAA's detailed sportsmanship rules should be limited to enforcing only violations of those rules.
He would still have the residual power to act alone in clear cases of sportsmanship violations not covered by the NCAA competition rulebook, such as, for example, a team poisoning another team's training table food two days before they play. But where the issue directly involves the competition on the field, the B1G commissioner can't be allowed to ignore the NCAA on-field sportsmanship rules to which all his member schools are also a party.
That's not a great argument, but it's also not a terrible one. I'd certainly make it if I was the school.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:11 AM ^
Yes, I agree that Petitti should be suspended.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:36 AM ^
BIG HR interviewer: "Mr. Petitti, we notice that you have no experience actually managing any athletic activities at any level. How do we know you can do the job?"
Petitti: "Hey, how hard can it be, right? It's just a conference. And if I need any advice, I've got Ryan Day and Greg Schiano available."
BIG HR interviewer: "You're hired!"
November 9th, 2023 at 9:38 AM ^
B1G will just say Harbaugh is responsible for the entire football program. But now we are learning that other coaches were spying on future opponents, it seem like it's a moot point. It was just a plan by OSU to try to get rid of Harbaugh!
November 9th, 2023 at 9:49 AM ^
My attempt at a steel man argument for 2023 B1G punishment against Michigan would go like this:
The B1G has the authority and the obligation to punish institutions for rule and sportsmanship violations.
There's no reasonable doubt that Connor Stalions engaged a network of in-person scouts in an effort to gain competitive advantage while employed as a Michigan staffer, and we can reasonably assume that he was providing signal information to the Michigan coaching staff. The remaining factors - whether the coaching staff knew, what the coaching staff does to discourage this kind of thing, and what competitive advantage Michigan actually got - are unknown and require an investigation to sort out.
The longer the time between violation and punishment, the less impact it has and the less fair it is. So it would be arguably reasonable to have a mild punishment now based on what we know to be true - let's assume that the coaching staff didn't know, that they have a reasonable compliance program, and any actual competitive benefit was minimal, and then impose an immediate penalty based on the best case reasonable assumptions in Michigan's favor.
Then if it turns out later that there are other factors that make the violation worse, we can impose more punishment based on those factors.
In other words, I don't think it's reasonable to impose punishment based on what a random OSU fan or coach thinks might be true - maybe Harbaugh knew (he didn't) or maybe this is the reason Michigan beat OSU in 2021 (it wasn't). But if the B1G wanted to impose a fair punishment based solely on the facts that Michigan can't reasonably contest, I could see an argument.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:52 AM ^
We had Michigan’s signs but still couldn’t stop them. How is that possible!!
Michigan changed their signs,that’s not sportsmanship
We don’t like Jim Harbaugh
November 9th, 2023 at 10:39 AM ^
Yes, Petitti has significant discretion and authority over this matter, but the BIG Sportsmanship Policy does put some checks on it. If he, under his “exclusive authority”, determines that any institution (including any person/group that it “maintains some level of authority” over) has “committed” an “offensive action” (in other places the phrase “offensive action has occurred” is used – just one example of the sloppiness of the policy), he may impose a “standard disciplinary action” including “suspensions from no more than two contests”.
But an individual over whom the institution has some level of authority (unquestionably includes Harbaugh) may “be held individually accountable if found to have committed an offensive action”. Para 10.1.1. As I interpret the policy, if he suspends Harbaugh it would need to be based on his finding that Harbaugh committed an offensive action. Under the facts as I think we know them, there doesn’t appear to be sufficient evidence to support a sound and defensible determination that Harbaugh himself committed an offensive action. And while I don’t think Petitti could use the NCAA presumption of head coach responsibility rule here, its application still wouldn’t satisfy the required element of a commission by an individual of an offensive action necessary to suspend Harbaugh. (The specific provision about individual accountability, at 10.1.1 prevails over the (vaguely stated) general authority to suspend, at 10.3.3.1)
It’s also worth noting, I think, that under Michigan law (and contract law generally), the parties to a contract have a duty to each other of “good faith and fair dealing”. U-M’s submission to the authority of the BIG may temper this “right” some, but still, under the “totality” of the facts and circumstances as apparently now known, UM would have a solid argument that Petitti-BIG suspending Harbaugh would be a breach of that duty.
November 11th, 2023 at 10:20 AM ^
Good comment, I owe you an upvote when our point system gets back in working order.
Meanwhile, welcome to the MGoBoard.
November 9th, 2023 at 1:10 PM ^
What are the chances the that Big Ten suspends Harbaugh for Maryland and UofM just accepts it since it won't influence the outcome?
November 10th, 2023 at 7:54 AM ^
Harbaugh and Michigan are the new Donald Trump.
November 11th, 2023 at 10:21 AM ^
🤔 No politics please.