[🔓 UNlocked. ] Breaking: Mass shooting on MSU campus
Listening to the scanner. Multiple victims in Berkey hall. Police searching the union building.
[🔒 Locked @2am, pending full inspection Tuesday morning. More info in mod sticky thread.---rob f]
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[Unlocked @9:05 am.
My thoughts this morning are that we can---and will---have a discussion that won't again go back off the rails. After all, the vast majority of us on the MGoBoard are totally capable of having a thoughtful, mature discussion (and prove so on a regular basis).
OTOH, if anyone chooses instead to troll this now-unlocked thread, they'll likely join the three who sidelined themselves last night.
What happened last night on the MSU campus is way beyond tragic. We shouldn't pretend here that it didn't happen. And it shouldn't be "swept under the rug" because of the poor behavior of a few who abuse the privilege of having an MGoAccount.
Instead, we should all be given the opportunity to express here our sympathies, our prayers, our support to those who are today mourning in the aftermath of last night's events.
-rob f]
February 13th, 2023 at 10:13 PM ^
Shootings of innocent people not normal? Tell that to the poor folks in Bakhmut.
February 13th, 2023 at 9:59 PM ^
The mass shooting violence in New Zealand, Japan, Spain, France, England, Canada, Australia, Sweden, Norway, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Finland, Ireland, Netherlands, Greece, etc etc is appalling. All these western first world countries - its sickening how people die weekly from mass shootings! Children killed in schools nearly every week. People gunned down in church, shopping, eating out, parades, etc. It's just what humans do in all these countries Sal!
February 13th, 2023 at 10:14 PM ^
Mass shootings in the US account for fewer than 2% of all homicides. The rest are individual killings. The handgun, not the AR15, is the weapon of choice for killers.
Black Americans account for half of all homicide victims. The vast majority of whom were killed by guns. Specifically, handguns.
If we ended mass shootings tomorrow 20,000 Americans would still die from acts of intentional violence.
February 13th, 2023 at 10:16 PM ^
Interesting facts...
February 13th, 2023 at 10:28 PM ^
He posted a statistical fact....whats the problem?
February 13th, 2023 at 10:53 PM ^
The problem is that he posted facts that no one wants to accept or believe. It doesn't fit the narrative of AR-15s are bad, and they do all the killings. I don't personally care to own one, but I'm not naive enough to believe that banning them will stop events like this, or have an effect on the amount of casualties during an event like this. Where there is a will, there's a way. Criminals don't follow law, and they will find whatever weapon they want, or find a way to cause the same amount of destruction.
Does more need to be done to prevent events like this? Absolutely. But I won't sit here and tell you what that is. I don't think there is an answer honestly. You can have better background checks, require training or some sort of mental health test, but in the end it won't matter. They'll find a way. Violence has been part of human kind since we've been here. Whether it be spears, bows and arrows, or guns. Things like this will happen until the end of time.
February 13th, 2023 at 11:00 PM ^
Why is it they don’t happen anywhere near as frequently in other western countries that have strict gun control laws? Yes, people will still find ways to kill, but take away easy tools to kill lots of people quickly and many less people will die in those events.
February 13th, 2023 at 11:22 PM ^
If they ban AR-15s, I will feel 0% safer for my wife, who works at a school, and my kids. They will still be out there. Whether they 3d print their own parts, or cobble something together. I could take my semi auto shotgun I use for duck hunting, throw a rifled slug barrel on it, pistol grip, and a tube extension and cause more then enough havoc. Or turn my dads semi-auto deer rifle that he's had for ages into some sort of "assault" style gun. Its just not going to go away. Again, I'm not saying that nothing should be done. But I personally don't think a ban would do a dang thing.
February 13th, 2023 at 11:45 PM ^
Interestingly, you don’t have to think about whether stricter gun control would work, you just have to look at the evidence of many other western countries with strict gun control laws and lots less gun deaths. Sure, people will still find a way, but make it harder and less people will find a way.
February 14th, 2023 at 10:27 AM ^
Don't forget that mass shootings were significantly lower when the U.S. had an assault weapons ban in effect for several years.
February 14th, 2023 at 1:01 AM ^
Then countries who have done so must be having the same problems then right? Right? Oh wait, they don't because you're full of shit.
February 13th, 2023 at 11:31 PM ^
As someone who has more firearms than I can count, fully supports significantly stricter gun laws, and is equally distinterested in myself or my loved ones dying by mass shooting, singular homicide or suicide:
Current firearms regulation is both aggravating for responsible owners and deliberately ineffective, and the focus on "assault weapons" is a distraction which the far right is very happy to encourage because there's very little difference in lethality between a super scary looking AR and any semi-automatic hunting rifle. It wouldn't be hard at all to dramatically reduce mass shootings and firearm related homicides and suicides. One probably wouldn't even need to eliminate concealed carry:
- Universal ban on >10 round magazines
- Universal child access prevention laws
- Federal licensing for all firearm and ammunition and ownership, predicated on effective mental health and criminal background checks and demonstrated proficiency
- Universal criminal databases instead of the patchwork of jurisdictions reporting on an elective basis to NICS
- Adequate funding for enforcement
*Some folks will need to get over the notion that they are going to defeat a modern army using the s*** that they can buy at Bass Pro Shop.
February 13th, 2023 at 11:44 PM ^
The invention of the 3D printer makes banning high capacity magazines almost moot. Technology is becoming as big of a weapon as the guns nowadays unfortunately.
February 14th, 2023 at 12:00 AM ^
It doesn't make it moot. Just because you could get it, doesn't mean it would be readily available. When possession of an item is a felony, they are a bit harder to come by. Better shouldn't be the enemy of good.
February 14th, 2023 at 12:13 AM ^
While it is impossible to eliminate any threat, simply raising the barriers matters as it makes it harder to be a terrible person while preserving legitimate civilian uses. The person intent on mayhem with the commitment to printing a ghost gun and high capacity mag as well as manufacturing ammunition is probably also the type of person who would learn how to fly a 767.
February 14th, 2023 at 10:35 AM ^
"Scary-looking" weapon is a cop-out argument gun supporters often use to try to convince people that ARs aren't dangerous. They are the weapon of choice of mass shooters for a reason. They are incredibly powerful and are designed to kill human beings. They blow holes the size of cantaloupes in their victims. Read some stories of ER doctors trying to operate on AR-15 mass shooting victims. There's basically nothing they can do because the wounds are so traumatic. That's exactly why they're far deadlier than other firearms.
February 14th, 2023 at 5:06 PM ^
No. The point is that ARs and other "assault rifles" aren't more dangerous or appreciably different than a common semi-automatic hunting rifle... they can all be dangerous in the hands of a criminal or mentally ill person, or with a large capacity magazine. The difference between an AR and a semi-automatic hunting rifle isn't firing rate, or available magazine capacity. A semi-automatic hunting rifle firing 30-06 is actually significantly more lethal than the .223 rounds common in an AR. And overall length may only differ by a few inches. What is different is the grip and shape of the magazine.
The only reason that "assault rifles" such as semi-automatic ARs are more frequently used in mass shootings and crimes has to do with their lower cost, the military association, and how they are portrayed in media which makes them more attractive to aspirational criminals/cop killers/mass shooters/insurrectionists. Meaningful regulation should be based on actual performance, not on aesthetics. I encourage anyone who supports firearm regulation reform to take a firearm safety course and spend a day at the range - much of the pro-regulation information that you read is well-intended but poorly informed.
February 14th, 2023 at 6:42 PM ^
Seems crazy that we aren't still giving our troops M-14s, huh? Or maybe bolt action 03-06s.
I guess the army and Marines forgot how to kill people.
February 14th, 2023 at 7:31 PM ^
Bad faith or just misinformed? Military carbines such as the M16/M4 or SIG Spear are fully automatic. This is a huge difference from the AR semi-automatic "assault rifles" that most civilians can buy, which are insignificantly different from semi-automatic hunting rifles.
February 15th, 2023 at 12:55 PM ^
M-14 also had a selective fire option.
The modularity and mobility of the AR platform is much better and, although the lethality of 7.62 is greater that 5.56 (or civilian .223), the small round is lighter and allows you to pack more ammo and carry more. It's also easier to shoot repeatedly. I've handled both in military and civilian settings. You want to sit on a roof and assassinated people, my bolt acton 30-06 will do wonders. If I want to inflict maximum carnage and be mobile, give me an AR and .223.
Teach your mother to suck eggs.
February 15th, 2023 at 6:37 PM ^
I guess we disagree on whether causing maximum carnage in tight quarters versus merely sitting in a bell tower assassinating people is different enough to matter. The problem is how one comes up with a technical description of an "assault rifle" so they can be regulated in a way that improves public safety without tripping over the line that also eliminates most common hunting and sporting rifles. Most studies of the impacts of the 1994 assault weapons ban showed no conclusive benefit.
February 15th, 2023 at 11:18 AM ^
Sounds like that semi-automatic hunting rifle is also much more powerful than it needs to be and should be classified with the AR and other assault rifles and weapons of war. Maybe everyday citizens shouldn't have access to that either. And I know that the AR doesn't have a higher firing rate than other semi-automatics, but that's not the point. The problem is that they are so much more powerful than shotguns, handguns, etc. If you're shot by an AR-15 or that more powerful hunting rifle, you're much less likely to survive.
It looks scary because it is scary. If it looked like a pink, fluffy bunny rabbit that wouldn't make it any less dangerous.
Why are we manufacturing firearms that can kill dozens of people in a matter of minutes and allowing civilians to own them? I believe in the 2nd amendment but we need to get those weapons off the streets and out of the hands of lunatics and extremists.
February 13th, 2023 at 11:45 PM ^
We actually could take away all the AR-15's and other assault rifles. We could do that, and do it forcefully. We could make it illegal for anyone to own a weapon meant to kill a lot of people in a short amount of time. We could decide that some weapons just don't belong in the hands of civilians.
February 14th, 2023 at 12:52 AM ^
There have been mass stabbings in Europe... I dont think they are calling for Knife reform over there. This whole country is screwed up thinking we need more gun reform. What we need is for people to actually start caring about other peoples lives than their own selfish greed. You can outlaw/ban/take away every gun and someone with bad intentions is going to find a way to get a gun and go kill people without a gun. It's the simple truth! Bad people/Evil People do not want to live by the laws of this country
February 14th, 2023 at 1:44 AM ^
After similar mass shootings in Australia in 1996 and New Zealand in 2018 both countries moved aggressively to ban assault weapons and AR 15s, national gun registries, and mandatory buy backs. New Zealand’s law was modeled after Australia’s which pretty much wiped out mass shootings. Both have been overwhelmingly effective. The same could be said for similar laws in just about every modern democratic economy around the world except one.
February 14th, 2023 at 12:14 PM ^
I think the Australia and New Zealand are in a unique position when it comes to a ban given their location. They are islands that are difficult to get to. The US has “bans” on drugs yet they are smuggled every day. It is “illegal” to cross the border yet plenty of people still do. Do we really think given our proximity to the cartels in South America we would be able to stop them from selling firearms in the US the same way they do narcotics? If it was as simple as saying just ban it people would not be dying en mass from overdoses daily.
February 14th, 2023 at 10:29 AM ^
I can't chop vegetables with an AR-15.
February 14th, 2023 at 12:07 PM ^
not with that attitude
February 14th, 2023 at 12:38 PM ^
I mean, I probably could, but I don't think it would be very useful. And I'd probably destroy my kitchen and kill my cats in the process.
February 14th, 2023 at 12:39 PM ^
I have an ar and a glock and they sit safely in my gun safe. Thankfully I’ve never had to use them except at the range, but I’m glad I have them just in case I need one.
February 14th, 2023 at 4:37 PM ^
Which is why people who work in the area of reducing gun violence have ideas for reducing ALL gun violence and these ideas don’t just begin and end with “ban AR 15s” or even ban guns. Groups like MomsDemand Action, Everytown, etc. work to end accidental child shootings, domestic violence shootings, gun suicides, as well as mass shooting events. And others. We don’t have to live like this. No other of our peer nations do.
February 13th, 2023 at 10:26 PM ^
So why bother stopping the mass shootings if it won't stop all other shootings? Now there's some logic.
February 13th, 2023 at 10:47 PM ^
The majority (60+%) of gun deaths in the US are suicides. By per capita numbers, the US is in the 20s in gun deaths overall (even counting suicides) but 2nd overall in suicides alone. Mental health in this country is a big concern.
February 13th, 2023 at 11:36 PM ^
I don't know why you discount suicides. Firearm access is highly correlated with successful suicide.
Guns are more lethal than other suicide means. They’re quick. And they’re irreversible.
About 85% of attempts with a firearm are fatal: that’s a much higher case fatality rate than for nearly every other method. Many of the most widely used suicide attempt methods have case fatality rates below 5%.
February 14th, 2023 at 12:19 AM ^
'By per capita numbers, the US is in the 20s in gun deaths overall...' doesn't sound to bad until you see the other countries in the top 30: Bangladesh, India, Germany, Pakistan, Democratic Republic of Congo, Russia, Nigeria, Uganda, Turkey, Tanzania, France, Ethiopia, Ivory Coast, Thailand, Kenya, Mali, Ecuador, Somalia, South Africa, Argentina, Phillipines, Iraq, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Mexico, Honduras, Brazil, Columbia, Guatemala, El Salvador, Venezuela.
February 14th, 2023 at 9:42 AM ^
What's wrong with France?
February 14th, 2023 at 12:05 PM ^
or Germany?
February 13th, 2023 at 10:41 PM ^
So, because other people will die from homicide we should do nothing to prevent mass shootings?? That is like saying we shouldn't have forced automakers to install seatbelts because people will still die from auto accidents. Just dumb.
Yes, people have killed each other since the dawn of time, but guns, and more specifically high-capacity rifles, kill people much more efficiently than other commonly available methods.
February 13th, 2023 at 11:13 PM ^
But how many would be saved from having the ability to end mass shootings? Most hand gun shootings are from people who know each other fighting. Mass shootings are one individual going into some place and randomly killing innocent people. To say well it always happens is turning a blind eye to a huge out of control problem in this country Its sad the NRA pays politicians to fail to enacting laws that could make a series dent in this issue
February 14th, 2023 at 12:00 AM ^
So.... everybody kills people, steals from you, steals from me?
February 14th, 2023 at 12:30 AM ^
What an asshole
February 14th, 2023 at 12:40 AM ^
I'm ok with banning handguns too... but I figured AR-15s was an easier place to start.
February 14th, 2023 at 9:27 AM ^
You posted a stat but do you understand the root causes?
February 14th, 2023 at 10:54 AM ^
The majority of gun-related homicides are suicides, so in fact the most common "killer" is also the victim.
Also, the majority of white people who are killed by guns are killed by white people. It's true for basically every race/ethnicity; you're more likely going to be killed by people who "look" like you. It's "weird" you immediately jumped to blaming black people for a truism that applies to every race but I'm sure that was totally coincidental.
And finally, you flippantly throwing out "well, 20k people would still die even if we stopped mass shootings" is some space cadet-level thinking. Lot more people per capita died from car accidents before we forced cars to have seatbelts, more people died before we outlawed drunk driving, more people died from bad medication and poisoned water and everything else before we started stopping the source of those issues. Virtually nobody needs a gun in their possession to survive day-to-day; most of the modern world has found a way to not turn into Mad Max land without easy access to firearms. So yeah, handguns are involved in more mass shootings than AR-15s, but AR-15s (and their various semi-automatic brethren) have been involved in 4 of the 5 deadliest mass shootings in this country. So yeah, baby steps to cut down on the number of dead bodies would be to limit access to guns that can plow through a room of people in a matter of seconds.
February 14th, 2023 at 2:13 PM ^
Keep shifting that argument Salvatore, there is no bar with you, it's an ever moving object that never seems to be where you last left it.
February 13th, 2023 at 10:50 PM ^
Don't pretend that's the point of your post.
February 13th, 2023 at 9:12 PM ^
It's sad, but it's been like this since Cain. Fortunately he wasn't armed so he only killed one.
February 13th, 2023 at 9:24 PM ^
Almost the entire western/civilized world has moved past this.
February 13th, 2023 at 9:36 PM ^
Don't equate the terms 'western' and 'civilized.'
Can't tell if you were agreeing with and furthering my point or attempting to raise a counterpoint. To clarify, my point was that murder exists and has always existed everywhere. I lament that humans are so screwed up, too. The point I was trying to imply is that it's our gun laws that set the US apart. Of the economically powerful countries, we are the only one that makes it so easy for its citizens to do it.
February 13th, 2023 at 9:47 PM ^
Sicily and Southern Italy has for centuries suffered from communal violence as brutal as any in the US or Latin America.
Moving past implies that this is a permanent situation. Knowing what we know about Western Europe I wouldn’t go that far.
Civilization was forged out of violence. It continues to use and suffer from violence. Violence is part of being “civilized” as violence is endemic to the species.