This mostly just confirms what I had always suspected. Jim is an incredible man surrounded by a lot of mediocrity at the Unviersity. He could have been retained if that weren't the case. The school's utter lack of spine left a bad taste in his mouth that he could never quite shake and it opened him up to moving on more than he had previously considered. Oh well.
Oh, I know. The tone of that episode was just very Odd. Brian and Seth were pretty forcefully shutting down JUB because John was asserting that it seems pretty clear that the school didn't try everything it could to keep Jim. Brian and Seth were adamant that nothing could possibly have changed Jim's mind. Brian was also very positive that NFL strength coaches aren't really a thing. Lots of proclamations.
Perhaps a guy who is building a legendary career by challenging the status quo believes that he has a better idea for how it ought to be in the NFL and part of that involves building unity by training together.
This is exactly what I had in mind. All the guys on the podcast were so certain that Herbert wouldn't leave because "that's not how things work in the NFL." Have they ever heard of Jim Harbaugh??
If, as many people seem to believe, Herbert was truly the core of this program in many ways, then yes, you spend to keep him. If he's not worth more than a DC (of which we get a new one every year or two) then I guess he's not and now he's gone.
No, I thought the people who were fine moving on from Harbaugh were absolutely insane. I think the people willing to let a very clear pattern of ambivalence from Warde as to whether or not Jim returns this year are equally stupid.
The refrain I kept hearing on the podcast was "WELL, HE DREAMED OF A SUPER BOWL SO HE WAS ALWAYS GOING TO LEAVE, DUH"
John U Bacon's position, which he was cut off from making a number of times by that poorly thought out assertion, was "That may be true, but we can be certain that we'll never know because it's very clear that not everything was done to keep him, both in the immediate timeframe of the post-season negotiations as well as during the season leading up to this."
Now, one can whine and cry and assert all he wants that none of it would have mattered because Jim was definitely gone anyway. But the answer to the question of "did the school do everything it reasonably could have to keep him?" will always be a resounding No.
Yea, this isn't Mel Tucker. I think Sherrone is getting a shot because he's very well respected by the current staff and players and has performed very well when asked, even if he maybe turtled way too much in those first few games. But those were literally his first games as an HC and he's up against PSU in penn state and then Ohio State. I kinda get it. I think that in order to keep the program together as it is and stabilize it, he's probably a totally fine hire. He could turn out awful but so too could anyone.
This is what I'm hoping for. He's a great OLine guy and does very good with scripted drives but his in-game Xs and Os were...not great and he literally did get bailed out by legendary defense in every single one of our most improtant games this year....including maryland. But I get the feeling he's a great glue guy and culture guy so hopefully he can elevate whichever OC was helping him with the scripted drives the most and not miss too much. But I fear there will be a significant, steady decline.
There is no coach on earth who could turn a team into a perrenial powerhouse in perpetuity after his departure. Harbaugh took a Michigan team struggling to scrape 3rd or 4th in its division on a yearly basis and turned them into 3 peat conference champs and capped it with a national title. That's restoration because Michigan has never been here in the modern era.
For all of the hate that the B1G admin and NCAA get on this board, the number of people who were absolutely sure that the right thing to do in every situation was for Michigan to roll over and show their belly before even being reprimanded was way too high.
I get that everyone wants to make excuses and say it was OK for the university to play hardball with a legendary coach who had a ton of leverage but those people are stupid. Yes, Warde is not exclusively responsible for this but he has a lot of say in the tone and tenor of how these negotiations unfolded over the last couple years.
Based on how the news broke over the course of the day yesterday with regard to what Michigan was finally willing to offer, it seems obvious that the AC story that John Bacon tweeted has quite a bit of truth to it. Maybe Jim was always going to leave but the University dicked him around while he was courting other offers, that's not a great strategy to retain a legendary coach. Pair this with how the university turtled on Partridge for no real reason outside of optics then suspended Harbaugh due to totally off-base B1G snap allegations and it's very easy to see why Jim might not feel like the school has his back the way the school is very clearly trying to assure the fans that it does.
All of the above spinelessness and wildly misplaced belligerence in negotiation tactics aside, Warde has presided over the collapse of the basketball program (whose now clearly inept coach he appears willing to stand behind still) and the exit of 3-4 (depending on whom one asks) absolutely fantastic Michigan coaches from a variety of sports. He appears to also suck when it comes to NIL. What is the argument in favor of Warde Manuel besides "other guys messed up some things too!!!"?
In the context of the University's position within the sport at the time of his arrival and the state of the sport, in general, relative to what Michigan is able to do within that frame, this is very easy:
1. Jim Harbaugh
I know we had some all timers who won it all while the sport was still being invented but to climb to the top of modern college football with the constraints on Michigan as a program is the greatest achievement by any Michigan football coach. Simple as.
A lot of idiots are going to feel really silly for being relieved that harbaughs gone. Idk if you guys are all like 15 years old but there are dark days coming
A lot of idiots are going to feel really silly for being relieved that harbaughs gone. Idk if you guys are all like 15 years old but there are dark days coming
A lot of idiots are going to feel really silly for being relieved that harbaughs gone. Idk if you guys are all like 15 years old but there are dark days coming
Why do people assume he’s just getting jilted by these teams? It’s pretty obvious that he’s in high demand but also extremely demanding when it comes to what he’d require of an owner to come coach. You don’t get your name floated in every article about a head coaching vacancy for 9 straight years without having offers on the table in a given year.
We made some solid moves in grabbing contributors, specifically Oline and Dline from low level P5 schools and scouted some hidden G5 gems but we did not have any headline grabbing gets. Very lowkey and subtly good performance. No top CBs, WRs etc. We could do much better with even a decent NIL situation.
Where are people seeing the odds? Are they not real props and just in articles? I never see them on the apps. I wouldn't touch this but wouldn't mind neurotically checking it from time to time.
People have been whining about this since we first got Harbaugh 9 years ago. They dream of the brady hoke days when we were landing top 10 classes every year.
This is so ridiculously short sighted. I get that people don't like the annual month long tummy ache in the off season and I'd want him gone if we were finishing second in conference and losing the citrus bowl every year but we're perennial champions and just won it all on the best season in Michigan football history. "just get outta here, pal" is such a dumb ass take lol
It's evidence that he's open to leaving if a very particular NFL situation becomes available to him. I imagine he is also very open to staying at Michigan if a very particular contract is offered to him now.
For example: if Michigan decided to start getting major NIL together to compete with the big boys, offered him burger and sign gate immunity and gave him his arbitration clause, and got the money right, I think he's mostly a lock to stay.
If and NFL team offers to basically make him head coach and GM AND has a pretty strong Cap and personnel situation, he would be extremely tempted to go.
I think he might leave if he finds a very particular type of situation in the NFL but it's also very clear that he loves it at Michigan. He's conflicted; it's not that hard to understand and people who think he just would rather be in the NFL don't seem to understand that. If he just wanted to be in the NFL, he would have left by now.
Moore did an OK job at Xs and Os and he seems to be a great glue guy but the program culture and morale revolved around Jim Harbaugh. Other guys might have bought in and carried that with them as well but people would be silly to just assume Sherrone Moore could maintain that.
I basically agree with everything you said here. If Moore hands over playcalling to a solid OC and we somehow retain Minter, I'd feel OKish. But it is a total question mark and I would not feel at all confident given what Moore has shown
Yes...we low balled him because we had him over a barrel in 2020. I don't know what the extension talks looked like in the 2022 off season, but we were not comping him like a top coach at all.
>What indication do you have that Jim prefers it here to the NFL?
The fact that he was a very successful NFL coach and gave that up to be here for basically twice as long as he's been anywhere else...dumb question.
>Jim wants out and he will be gone as soon as a team offers him a job.
Poor analysis. Jim wants a Bill B. type control of whichever team he goes to. This is a huge ask and it's a big part of why he never left. IF he gets that he will likely go but only because I'm pretty sure Michigan and stupid fans like yourself are too dumb to offer him whatever he wants.
SM is great a game planning and scripting drives but our offense was very limited for the entire middle portion of that game and that was extremely typical for this team. He doesn’t call It well in game at all. Defense kept us alive in every single game after Indiana.
Because it very very clearly has something to do with what Michigan is doing. Yes, Harbaugh has options and other goals but he very clearly likes it here. He needs certain large assurances that he has earned and we’re dicking him around like it’s 2020 and we have all the leverage. Hubris
Sure. And in every single one of those games, even Maryland, we depended on the defense to play out of its mind while the offense disappeared in the middle of the game.
I think you should use fancy stats to make your point and not these outdated stats that don’t account for ball control. But i basically agree. He seems like a very good locker room guy, a great oline coach and a great drive scripter, but his in game OC abilities seem extremely limited. Maybe he might be a better head coach than OC because of these things but i could see him being a total hoke type failure too
Our last 3 classes were ranked the same as the 3 classes before them. And our upcoming classes are looking very similar. If people are happy with these last 3 years, we're in good shape. People seem determined to somehow bitch about these last 3 years though. Insane.
Seriously. Some people just need to log off if it makes them that agitated. We're trying to land Moby Dick, get below deck if you can't even watch without whining.
Recent Comments
"It's not a money thing, college is a much harder job"
Guess what that means? You have to pay them more money to get them to stay...
It's very apparent that we did not. If they prefer the NFL or working with Harbaugh then it costs more money to keep them from doing those things.
Harbaugh offered a lot of his staff to join him. Michigan is too cheap to compete for any of them. Why be mad at Harbaugh and not Michigan?
I wouldn't care about the trophy but we are definitely not much better off right now.
This mostly just confirms what I had always suspected. Jim is an incredible man surrounded by a lot of mediocrity at the Unviersity. He could have been retained if that weren't the case. The school's utter lack of spine left a bad taste in his mouth that he could never quite shake and it opened him up to moving on more than he had previously considered. Oh well.
Warde is considering suing harbaugh to recover salary paid during his suspension, I'm sure.
Hey look, schools going to bat for their coaches and programs. Crazy stuff
Oh, I know. The tone of that episode was just very Odd. Brian and Seth were pretty forcefully shutting down JUB because John was asserting that it seems pretty clear that the school didn't try everything it could to keep Jim. Brian and Seth were adamant that nothing could possibly have changed Jim's mind. Brian was also very positive that NFL strength coaches aren't really a thing. Lots of proclamations.
Maybe.
Perhaps a guy who is building a legendary career by challenging the status quo believes that he has a better idea for how it ought to be in the NFL and part of that involves building unity by training together.
This is exactly what I had in mind. All the guys on the podcast were so certain that Herbert wouldn't leave because "that's not how things work in the NFL." Have they ever heard of Jim Harbaugh??
If, as many people seem to believe, Herbert was truly the core of this program in many ways, then yes, you spend to keep him. If he's not worth more than a DC (of which we get a new one every year or two) then I guess he's not and now he's gone.
Trying to cover his ass.
No, I thought the people who were fine moving on from Harbaugh were absolutely insane. I think the people willing to let a very clear pattern of ambivalence from Warde as to whether or not Jim returns this year are equally stupid.
The refrain I kept hearing on the podcast was "WELL, HE DREAMED OF A SUPER BOWL SO HE WAS ALWAYS GOING TO LEAVE, DUH"
John U Bacon's position, which he was cut off from making a number of times by that poorly thought out assertion, was "That may be true, but we can be certain that we'll never know because it's very clear that not everything was done to keep him, both in the immediate timeframe of the post-season negotiations as well as during the season leading up to this."
Now, one can whine and cry and assert all he wants that none of it would have mattered because Jim was definitely gone anyway. But the answer to the question of "did the school do everything it reasonably could have to keep him?" will always be a resounding No.
Yea, this isn't Mel Tucker. I think Sherrone is getting a shot because he's very well respected by the current staff and players and has performed very well when asked, even if he maybe turtled way too much in those first few games. But those were literally his first games as an HC and he's up against PSU in penn state and then Ohio State. I kinda get it. I think that in order to keep the program together as it is and stabilize it, he's probably a totally fine hire. He could turn out awful but so too could anyone.
This is what I'm hoping for. He's a great OLine guy and does very good with scripted drives but his in-game Xs and Os were...not great and he literally did get bailed out by legendary defense in every single one of our most improtant games this year....including maryland. But I get the feeling he's a great glue guy and culture guy so hopefully he can elevate whichever OC was helping him with the scripted drives the most and not miss too much. But I fear there will be a significant, steady decline.
There is no coach on earth who could turn a team into a perrenial powerhouse in perpetuity after his departure. Harbaugh took a Michigan team struggling to scrape 3rd or 4th in its division on a yearly basis and turned them into 3 peat conference champs and capped it with a national title. That's restoration because Michigan has never been here in the modern era.
Depending on Michigan to make the right offer to retain talent again. I'm with you, though
No, but they do compete directly with the NFL for coaching talent...as we are all very painfully aware.
For all of the hate that the B1G admin and NCAA get on this board, the number of people who were absolutely sure that the right thing to do in every situation was for Michigan to roll over and show their belly before even being reprimanded was way too high.
I get that everyone wants to make excuses and say it was OK for the university to play hardball with a legendary coach who had a ton of leverage but those people are stupid. Yes, Warde is not exclusively responsible for this but he has a lot of say in the tone and tenor of how these negotiations unfolded over the last couple years.
Based on how the news broke over the course of the day yesterday with regard to what Michigan was finally willing to offer, it seems obvious that the AC story that John Bacon tweeted has quite a bit of truth to it. Maybe Jim was always going to leave but the University dicked him around while he was courting other offers, that's not a great strategy to retain a legendary coach. Pair this with how the university turtled on Partridge for no real reason outside of optics then suspended Harbaugh due to totally off-base B1G snap allegations and it's very easy to see why Jim might not feel like the school has his back the way the school is very clearly trying to assure the fans that it does.
All of the above spinelessness and wildly misplaced belligerence in negotiation tactics aside, Warde has presided over the collapse of the basketball program (whose now clearly inept coach he appears willing to stand behind still) and the exit of 3-4 (depending on whom one asks) absolutely fantastic Michigan coaches from a variety of sports. He appears to also suck when it comes to NIL. What is the argument in favor of Warde Manuel besides "other guys messed up some things too!!!"?
In the context of the University's position within the sport at the time of his arrival and the state of the sport, in general, relative to what Michigan is able to do within that frame, this is very easy:
1. Jim Harbaugh
I know we had some all timers who won it all while the sport was still being invented but to climb to the top of modern college football with the constraints on Michigan as a program is the greatest achievement by any Michigan football coach. Simple as.
A lot of idiots are going to feel really silly for being relieved that harbaughs gone. Idk if you guys are all like 15 years old but there are dark days coming
A lot of idiots are going to feel really silly for being relieved that harbaughs gone. Idk if you guys are all like 15 years old but there are dark days coming
A lot of idiots are going to feel really silly for being relieved that harbaughs gone. Idk if you guys are all like 15 years old but there are dark days coming
Lmfao
Why do people assume he’s just getting jilted by these teams? It’s pretty obvious that he’s in high demand but also extremely demanding when it comes to what he’d require of an owner to come coach. You don’t get your name floated in every article about a head coaching vacancy for 9 straight years without having offers on the table in a given year.
Interesting info that I did not know at all.
We made some solid moves in grabbing contributors, specifically Oline and Dline from low level P5 schools and scouted some hidden G5 gems but we did not have any headline grabbing gets. Very lowkey and subtly good performance. No top CBs, WRs etc. We could do much better with even a decent NIL situation.
huh, maybe the availability varies by state because I couldn't find it. Thanks for the reply, though. I think your analysis is correct as well.
Where are people seeing the odds? Are they not real props and just in articles? I never see them on the apps. I wouldn't touch this but wouldn't mind neurotically checking it from time to time.
.
People have been whining about this since we first got Harbaugh 9 years ago. They dream of the brady hoke days when we were landing top 10 classes every year.
This is so ridiculously short sighted. I get that people don't like the annual month long tummy ache in the off season and I'd want him gone if we were finishing second in conference and losing the citrus bowl every year but we're perennial champions and just won it all on the best season in Michigan football history. "just get outta here, pal" is such a dumb ass take lol
It's evidence that he's open to leaving if a very particular NFL situation becomes available to him. I imagine he is also very open to staying at Michigan if a very particular contract is offered to him now.
For example: if Michigan decided to start getting major NIL together to compete with the big boys, offered him burger and sign gate immunity and gave him his arbitration clause, and got the money right, I think he's mostly a lock to stay.
If and NFL team offers to basically make him head coach and GM AND has a pretty strong Cap and personnel situation, he would be extremely tempted to go.
I think he might leave if he finds a very particular type of situation in the NFL but it's also very clear that he loves it at Michigan. He's conflicted; it's not that hard to understand and people who think he just would rather be in the NFL don't seem to understand that. If he just wanted to be in the NFL, he would have left by now.
Not really. There are 12 spots. One goes to G5 and the SEC and B1G are now the only major conferences. Big 12 and ACC maybe get 1.5 each.
Moore did an OK job at Xs and Os and he seems to be a great glue guy but the program culture and morale revolved around Jim Harbaugh. Other guys might have bought in and carried that with them as well but people would be silly to just assume Sherrone Moore could maintain that.
I basically agree with everything you said here. If Moore hands over playcalling to a solid OC and we somehow retain Minter, I'd feel OKish. But it is a total question mark and I would not feel at all confident given what Moore has shown
It's going to cost a lot of money but yes
Yes...we low balled him because we had him over a barrel in 2020. I don't know what the extension talks looked like in the 2022 off season, but we were not comping him like a top coach at all.
>What indication do you have that Jim prefers it here to the NFL?
The fact that he was a very successful NFL coach and gave that up to be here for basically twice as long as he's been anywhere else...dumb question.
>Jim wants out and he will be gone as soon as a team offers him a job.
Poor analysis. Jim wants a Bill B. type control of whichever team he goes to. This is a huge ask and it's a big part of why he never left. IF he gets that he will likely go but only because I'm pretty sure Michigan and stupid fans like yourself are too dumb to offer him whatever he wants.
They would absolutely move if jim leaves. They’re his neighbors for a reason
SM is great a game planning and scripting drives but our offense was very limited for the entire middle portion of that game and that was extremely typical for this team. He doesn’t call It well in game at all. Defense kept us alive in every single game after Indiana.
Because it very very clearly has something to do with what Michigan is doing. Yes, Harbaugh has options and other goals but he very clearly likes it here. He needs certain large assurances that he has earned and we’re dicking him around like it’s 2020 and we have all the leverage. Hubris
Correct but we won because of defense. Our offense tended to generally just be barely good enough. Mind blowingly elite defense and solid offense
Sure. And in every single one of those games, even Maryland, we depended on the defense to play out of its mind while the offense disappeared in the middle of the game.
I think you should use fancy stats to make your point and not these outdated stats that don’t account for ball control. But i basically agree. He seems like a very good locker room guy, a great oline coach and a great drive scripter, but his in game OC abilities seem extremely limited. Maybe he might be a better head coach than OC because of these things but i could see him being a total hoke type failure too
Our last 3 classes were ranked the same as the 3 classes before them. And our upcoming classes are looking very similar. If people are happy with these last 3 years, we're in good shape. People seem determined to somehow bitch about these last 3 years though. Insane.
Seriously. Some people just need to log off if it makes them that agitated. We're trying to land Moby Dick, get below deck if you can't even watch without whining.
Not on offense, but we're returning more than ever on defense.