So, what DO you think the issue is?
Seriously, all snark and witty jabs aside, what is it about our play this year that you think is the issue?
Let me start with this: I find it highly difficult, if not outright impossible, to believe that Harbaugh can't coach, as a few hot-take addicts here have stated. The man took three other horrendous teams (2 college, 1 NFL) and turned them into winners in his tenure. And unlike the defenseless Rich Rod teams or the more-losses-each-year Hoke teams, Harbaugh has held Michigan steady at 10 wins three out of the last four seasons, and the 2017 season with 8 wins, while not great, had reasons that I believe went beyond Harbaugh himself. So the man isn't an idiot at coaching. You MIGHT make an argument that the man has yet to be an elite coach, but he's not a bumbling fool either, as his record indicates.
And I point out too that, as bad as it has been, we've played from behind and won. I can't think of that happening too many times under Rich Rod or Hoke. Believe it or not, playing from behind does help to build confidence and resiliency in players. I prefer to be up many scores before the half too, but playing from behind is good in teaching players that they can stay in the game and gain the lead back.
So what is it?
Is it the new offense? Harbaugh's an old-school football man; is he having trouble relating to what Gatiss wants to install?
Is it health? Rumor was that Shea wasn't 100 percent yesterday. That doesn't excuse everything, but it would explain a few things.
Is it just lack of ball security that's amplifying everything? Personally, that's my take; I think if that's fixed, a lot of these other woes go away, but I'm willing to entertain other ideas.
Share your thoughts, especially if you've watched the game a second time. I look forward to good football analysis; it's what we're here for, right? :D
September 8th, 2019 at 3:24 PM ^
Not enough cowbell
September 8th, 2019 at 4:20 PM ^
Nice one, Bruce Dickenson!
September 8th, 2019 at 4:31 PM ^
The real issue, as I see it, are these dumb repetitive posts.
September 8th, 2019 at 7:16 PM ^
Everybody on this blog and in this fanbase needs to chill the F*** out. We aren't Alabama or Clemson as much as we want to be. They play by a different set of rules for better or worse. But the biggest issue is probably the fans being a bunch of whiney bitches all the time. If you don't like the topic of the board post, don't click on it. If you have something to say, click on it. I'm so tired of all the snobby shit heads bitching about folks trying to have conversations about Michigan sports ON A MICHIGAN SPORTS SITE. This is clearly an attempt to cut through the 400 postings on the snowflakes thread and have a direct discussion about the teams specific issues. If you're fed up with talking about the issues, don't click on the thread.
September 8th, 2019 at 7:34 PM ^
No, JDeanAuthor needs to stop posting shit already covered in previous threads.
September 9th, 2019 at 12:56 AM ^
Does army play by the same rules?
September 8th, 2019 at 3:26 PM ^
Sigh. Well, it is evident it is the coaches...and by "coaches" I mean Jim Harbaugh. Look at what Ohio State is doing with a transfer QB. OSU's talent is far greater than ours depth wise, but "first team" talent isn't that much of a disparity.
Jim Harbaugh is simply not a great coach. He has been a great coach / was a great coach at Stanford and 49's. Just hasn't been a great coach here at Michigan. He isn't a bad coach either. Don't read into my comments. He just isn't an elite coach.
September 8th, 2019 at 3:36 PM ^
I like how you said "transfer QB" like he's some journeyman walk on. Let me adjust your sentence: "Look at what Ohio State is doing with the number 1 rated quarterback in his HS class."
September 8th, 2019 at 3:49 PM ^
So was Patterson.. everyone was like how the fuck is ole miss getting the number 1 qb in the class?
September 8th, 2019 at 7:23 PM ^
Not all No. 1 QBs are created equal. Your last few No. 1 QBs on the composite:
2013: Max Browne
2014: Kyle Allen
2015: Josh Rosen
2016: Shea
2017: Davis Mills
2018: Treavor Lawrence
2019: Spencer Rattler
September 8th, 2019 at 8:20 PM ^
Maybe not the best data point-
max Browne-maybe sucked maybe ruined by USC
allen- in the NFL despite transferring like four times
rosen-recent in college in the NFL (he sucks there but he made it as a first rounder)
mills-looked good
Lawrence-1st overall year after next
Rattler- looked good yesterday and will put up video game numbers just like every other Oklahoma QB.
September 9th, 2019 at 12:58 AM ^
Patterson is not fields. Point osu.
September 8th, 2019 at 3:49 PM ^
Wasn't Patterson the #1 rated QB in his class, and hasn't he been here a lot longer than Fields has been at OSU?
Why is OSU making it look so effortless and we're making every goddamn series look like a chore?
I don't know the answers. But I don't know that Harbaugh does either.
September 8th, 2019 at 4:12 PM ^
It’s either that shea was overrated out of high school or our offensive coaches just aren’t very good. It could be both. And I’m not basing that off of just these two games, but the 13 last year as well
September 8th, 2019 at 5:53 PM ^
Or Shea is injured this year and his high school class wasn’t as strong as others? Or perhaps he isn’t comfortable learning this new offense? Or, and we hate to admit it, but Ohio State has a lot more dudes surrounding Fields than we have around Shea. Just a lot of factors to consider.
September 8th, 2019 at 8:22 PM ^
Somebody mentioned this in a different thread, the OSU talent gap is real in terms of depth. When it comes to starters there shouldn't be this large of a gap
September 8th, 2019 at 8:50 PM ^
I respectfully disagree. I saw a datapoint that OSU has three times the number of 5-star starters on offense and defense than we do.
September 8th, 2019 at 5:47 PM ^
Their offensive system has been in place for years while Michigan is transitioning to spread from being a pro style offense since 2012.
September 8th, 2019 at 6:10 PM ^
OSU to a man has higher rated recruits. Shea is only one guy. Missing our only 5-star DPJ for speed in space is significant on a relative basis. But issue remains that OSU has many more guys like DPJ than we do. OL kind of same analogy. They just have higher rated recruits and that matters a ton.
So there may be no answers this year other than pulling some sort of upset type over achievement to beat them. It can happen if we close the gap with better offensive execution.
September 8th, 2019 at 6:33 PM ^
That’s totally false, Comparing offenses based on recruiting ranks M is right there possibly higher than osu, Ruiz #1 center, bredeson was top 50, mike top 150, dpj #1 wr, black Collins both top 300, Patterson top 5 overall, charbonnet top 50.
Now I do think the offense will turn it around. The defense is gona become the issue starting with Wisconsin, the d line is mediocre with no depth and the lb’s and secondary is weaker than last year. M will continue to be second fiddle to osu because harbaugh has not won big game, the loss to osu last year was huge for recruiting going forward, I honestly dont think harbaugh can compete with recruiting with the elites going forward unless win big ten this year which I will be shocked if M wins this year.
September 8th, 2019 at 8:00 PM ^
OSU has more overall talent on their roster, but first team to first team, there isn't a huge talent disparity. Especially on offense.
September 8th, 2019 at 9:58 PM ^
No it's NOT totally false. The disparity between OSU and Michigan is somewhat significant and here's the newly released 247 Roster Composite for 2019 to prove it (based on recruiting rankings over the previous years).
https://247sports.com/Season/2019-Football/CollegeTeamTalentComposite/
Alabama, OSU, and Georgia are the top 3 fairly close together and then there's the rest at a distance from the three. And if we really dive into the roster ratings, PSU is ranked just ahead of us. You're picking out just a few cases but overall it's not remotely close between Michigan and OSU and that translates to depth which is really key as the season progresses and injuries occur.
September 8th, 2019 at 6:17 PM ^
OSU would struggle with Army. They have played two cupcakes so far. It wasn’t an accident that Army had the second longest active win streak in FBS. We played into their hands with missed assignments, stupid turnovers and either poor play calling or poor reads (Shea).
Might as well start preparing for OSU like it’s the only game you have left. That game will determine success or failure this season regardless of the overall record IMO.
September 8th, 2019 at 8:21 PM ^
osu played a 10-3 Army team just two years ago and won 38-7.
September 8th, 2019 at 8:38 PM ^
"Just two years ago"
Uhhh.... college athletes have just four years of eligibility. How can you compare a team to itself two years prior?
September 9th, 2019 at 1:03 AM ^
Cincy beats army
September 8th, 2019 at 4:53 PM ^
Patterson was also the #1 QB in his class dumbass
September 8th, 2019 at 5:20 PM ^
which shows you how much value to put into those ratings
September 8th, 2019 at 6:05 PM ^
Trevor Lawrence was the #1 quarterback in that class.
September 9th, 2019 at 5:38 PM ^
Correct, Lawrence was the no 1 overall recruit and Fields was the no. 2 overall recruit - not just 1 and 2 QBs but overall recruits period.
September 8th, 2019 at 7:57 PM ^
Yeah, Fields was such an amazing QB that he had to transfer out of Georgia to get the PT he wanted. Also, Fields wasn't even looking that great in OSU's Spring Game. OSU just has their stuff together and Harbaugh can't seem to put it together.
September 8th, 2019 at 8:55 PM ^
To be fair Dwayne Haskins didn't look too good in last year's spring game and we all got excited over that.
September 8th, 2019 at 10:30 PM ^
Georgia's offense was a bad fit for Fields and he knew it which resulted in the "racial" charges that got him his transfer without sitting out a year. The reason he transferred to OSU was because Day's offense was a perfect fit and he even said so. The kid should have done his homework when he chose a college a couple of years ago. Fromm would be backing up Fields in OSU's system. I thought Fields was all about running the football but he has a very good and accurate arm. He's trouble down the road.
September 8th, 2019 at 5:25 PM ^
Why and the hell are people downvoting this take? The JJH apologists never cease to amaze me on this board. If this guys name was Hoke or RR - you'd run him out on a rail. 0-4 vs. OSU. 62 pts. allowed last year. Stagnant offense. HORRIBLE decisions. $7 mil per year don't buy what it used too.
Year 5 Brian and Company. YEAR 5.
September 8th, 2019 at 5:30 PM ^
You sir, are absolutely correct. Anybody who argues this is lying to themselves.
September 8th, 2019 at 5:39 PM ^
I think it's been pretty clear for some time now that Harbaugh is not the elite coach we thought we were getting. He's a good coach and good enough to keep us in the Top 20 consistently, but not good enough to win championships. I hope he proves me wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.
September 8th, 2019 at 8:48 PM ^
Agree it's on Harbaugh, and especially on his "meritocracy" meme which he preaches but does not practice. For example, there is no way Shea Patterson "earned" the right to stay on the field in the Army game, given all of the physical and mental errors he made, but there he was, starting the 2nd half. OTOH, one RB misses a block and another fumbles and they're done. You don't think that's noticed by the players and other coaches? It's got to affect their effort and team spirit.
September 9th, 2019 at 12:23 PM ^
because the minute you pull him you better never let him off the bench because his confidence will be shot, and whats all this talk like harbs aint that dude, we have way more talent and we feel like we are in more games. 10 wins is a lot, its some teams who would kill for that, he kept it close in some of those osu games with highly mediocre qbs (speight/okorn) and again he was coming up against one of the best coaches in america with how many great qbs, and talent ??? there is a great poet (rapper devin the dude) who says f-- over your fo sho p---y you gon end up with no p---y yall keep trying to run harbs out despite us upgrading overall and we gon end up with rich rod again after lloyd, and how did that shit work out ??? we still have a ways to go to get more talent in, but its only so much you can do when you cant pay players, and you keep higher academic standards and we have an oc pulling us up out the stone age, we will get there. Also keep in mind Day is a chip kelly disciple, you saw what kelly could do with gifted qbs and athletes around the perimeter, thats why i did not expect a drop off
September 8th, 2019 at 3:28 PM ^
That damn Pitbull banner.
September 8th, 2019 at 4:23 PM ^
I'm glad everyone decided it was the banner. I fucked up my pregame rituals yesterday, and last week, so I was worried that it was me.
In my defense they were all new rituals I came up with after The Game last year, just in case.
September 8th, 2019 at 4:46 PM ^
Not me. I wore my Maize Block M t-shirt, though I worked out in it after never week's game and never did laundry. I draped my "M Club Supports You" beach towel over the backrest of my loveseat. I did everything right...
September 8th, 2019 at 4:57 PM ^
While I appreciate your willingness to own up, whether or not you take a bunch of LSD and sacrifice a pigeon in a bathtub full of pig's bile really has nothing to do with our success on the field.
September 8th, 2019 at 5:46 PM ^
You're right. I should be using a goat instead of pigeons.
September 8th, 2019 at 5:50 PM ^
I know from experience dude
September 8th, 2019 at 3:30 PM ^
He isn’t elite but is very good. He has not lived up to his hype. He is too conservative for today’s game. The rules and athletes lean toward an open offense that uses formation to create mismatches. He prefers more vanilla than he needs to in order to be elite. Other than Saban, what national champ uses his archaic offenses? Saban has even progressed but also cheats. And, if Shea is injured to the point he cannot run the offense and the backup three years in isn’t ready, that’s his too.
September 8th, 2019 at 3:50 PM ^
My take...
Harbaugh's ceiling is limited in college because we won't cheat in recruiting, so we can't just win with Jimmies and Joes.
That said, we can still recruit a top 5-10 class every year, and with the right coaching that puts us right where we have been...knocking on the door of a playoff birth, but losing to a team (OSU) with superior talent and better scheme.
Basically, we need to out-coach teams like OSU, BAMA, and Clemson if we want to be elite, and Harbaugh doesn't seem to be that type of innovator. We also have the misfortune of playing in the same division as OSU, so we essentially missed the playoffs twice in the past 4 years because of that...even though we were the better team in 2016 and got jobbed on multiple calls by the refs.
That said, even a playoff birth will leave us looking like MSU or ND in the playoff...just totally outclassed by the 5* players getting paychecks and never going to class (practice all day like NFL teams) at programs like BAMA and Clemson.
For all the talk of Urban Meyer - OSU dominance - let's remember he only managed 1 national championship at OSU, and I believe that is because he simply couldn't/wouldn't cheat and run as dirty a program as he did at UF. Basically, Saban and Dabo (with the help of Jesus of course) are running NFL development factories under the guise of a university. Urban, did the same at UF, but seemed to clean it up just a bit at OSU, or he may have pulled off another championship.
September 8th, 2019 at 4:45 PM ^
Yep - this here.
To be elite you got to cheat. Michigan has no tolerance for this.
We will always be a 10 win team. A good team in the top 15.
OSU might drop back to our level with the coaching change, but they still have a lot of Urban's hires playing.
September 8th, 2019 at 5:03 PM ^
Shut up about he cheating crap.
Michigan's offense isn't sloppy and ineffective because they don't cheat. Patterson looks incapable of making decisions. We're running an option offense with a quarterback who can't read a defense. The failure of the coaching staff right now is that they can't develop a quarterback for their offense, and it's be exacerbated by having tackles that can't pass protect.
September 9th, 2019 at 8:35 AM ^
I was talking ceiling, not the Army game specifically. It's easy to overreact to one game (specifically against what is wrongly considered a "pushover service academy" - but is actually a really annoyingly efficient team that took Oklahoma to OT last year, as well, and probably deserves a top 25 ranking).
Service academy games are very unique for many reasons as discussed in depth on this blog, and even worse when it's a well coached top 25ish service academy team.
All that said, I was elaborating on what is holding us back from being an elite (Bama,Clemson) team, or near elite (OSU, Oklahoma) level team. In my opinion it is because we are still caught between running a collegiate sports program and an NFL development factory.
Beyond the "recruiting cheating"- which is widely known first hand per the Rashan Gary and Dax Hill recruitment sagas - (imagine dealing with this for every elite recruit), there is the reality that these other programs practice all day as if it is the NFL, where as we expect our boys to go to class- similar to other programs such as Notre Dame and Stanford. Now I'm not saying we are running a Harvard or Yale type program here, or even a Northwestern type program - but it's incredibly naive to think BAMA and Clemson have the same practice hours and recruiting practices as UM.
This makes what John Beilein did for UM basketball even that much more impressive.
September 8th, 2019 at 5:06 PM ^
To be elite you got to cheat. Michigan has no tolerance for this.
I could see if you think that's the reason for the terrible record against top 10 teams, but that makes no sense as to why we struggle with Army and look pedestrian against MTSU. We have way more talent than them, but didn't kill them the way the talent should allow according to this theory. So, there must be something that involves scheme and/or execution.
We're supposed to be getting speed in space, yet every time our offensive skill players get the ball they are blanketed by defenders. There is not space to let them make plays and use their speed and athleticism. I don't know if Gattis needs to evolve. I don't know if the playbook is limited for some reason like Shea being injured, not wanting to put stuff on film, or not having confidence in the o-line or QB. But, clearly there is a problem with the play calling and design right now, and the execution. There is no reason for the numerous fumbles and false starts from guys like Bredeson, Ruiz, and Patterson. These are all conference, experienced players not playing well. That's on the players. Some of that will improve because they are good players. I don't expect to keep getting so many false starts and fumbles. But, the play calling and play design has to do a better job at getting speed in space. Collins, Black, & Charbonnet are some of the best in the league and we're struggling to put them in positions to make plays. That needs to change. I think they will improve, but it looks bad so far. Whoever is calling and designing plays is to blame. I just don't know who is responsible.