OT: USMNT Discussion
For those who follow the USMNT, the US played at El Salvador last night as part of the CONCACAF Nations League qualifier round. The field conditions were, bar none, the absolute worst I've seen for any professional sport. I'm honestly not sure I ever played on a field that bad in high school. The US escaped with a 1-1 draw, thanks to a 90th minute goal from Jordan Morris. It was sloppy, ugly, dirty, and a game that felt like one the US usually would have lost. I'm fine with the result, given the awful conditions.
That said, I believe the next time we'll see the men's team is when they kick off against Wales in November, for their first WC group stage game. (I could be wrong here, but I don't see any scheduled games until then. Seems a long break with no games.)
I'm curious the board's thoughts on who you like for the roster, who you don't, and who you think will ultimately be part of the group heading to Qatar in November.
For me, I think Luca De La Torre has been fantastic, particularly in the last couple of games. He's got a level of finesse on the ball that I've not seen from any other US player, and he combines that with a great awareness of where to push the ball. I think he's a must for the starting 11.
Yunus Musah was the only player to really stand out in a positive light last night against El Salvador. I could see him coming off the bench in the WC to bring a jolt of energy as a second-half substitution.
Seems to me that the 9 position and goalkeeper are the biggest question marks. Ferreira had a great showing against Grenada last week, with 4 goals...but how much can you draw from that? Haji Wright seemed lost last night. Getting yanked after the first half was not a good sign for him. I think Horvath played himself out of the WC squad with his game last night, which is tough given the conditions. But he did not look competitive.
I've been assuming that the midfield three are Musah, Adams, and McKennie. If you have Musah coming off the bench, who do you think should start in his place?
I'm starting to think the goalkeeper is going to come down to which of the three or four options is getting regular club time. It might be a good time for Steffen or Turner to try and get a loan.
Trouble is - looks like neither Turner nor Steffan are going to be out on loan. It’s a less than ideal situation to have your starter GK only getting backup minutes.
Musah is no way coming off the bench - he is a lock to start. LDLT I agree should be on the plane to Qatar, but he will be off the bench, not a starter.
My starting 11 today, assuming no injuries: Turner, Dest, Richards, Zimmerman, ARobinson, Adams, Musah, Mckennie, Weah, Pulisic, and either Jesus or Pepi.
Your first off the bench are going to be Reyna (lack of USMNT time keeps him off the starting lineup for me), Aaronson, the other #9, and LDLT - in that order.
Aaronson is going to be hard to leave on the bench. He’s looked like one of our best players recently - my bet is that Gregg finds a lineup that fits Aaronson into one of the starting midfield spots.
He has been trying to fit Aaronson in that midfield - but who do you take out? It’s a good problem to have, certainly, but we certainly have a lot of good options in midfield and winger
I know it's a stretch but why not put Aaronson up top in the number 9 spot? It's at least worth an experiment if the team gets 1 or 2 more scheduled warm-up games before the World Cup.
If not up top then I could see either McKennie or Musah being subbed out for Aaronson. Musah was great last night but he has a tendency to hold onto the ball too long and isn't good at finding the open man to pass to for a scoring chance. I remember multiple times against Morocco and Uruguay where he kept dribbling (which he is very good at) and didn't find an open Aaronson for an easy goal.
McKennie is very good but I think his skill set overlaps a bit with Aaronson. They both work hard defensively, they're both pests for the other team, they both have ok to good scoring touch in the final third. If anyone gets subbed out for Aaronson it is likely McKennie.
Musah was great last night but he has a tendency to hold onto the ball too long and isn't good at finding the open man to pass to for a scoring chance. I remember multiple times against Morocco and Uruguay where he kept dribbling (which he is very good at) and didn't find an open Aaronson for an easy goal.
This is why I like LDLT in the starting lineup over Musah. I'd rather have someone who can control the ball and get it to a playmaker, than someone who can push the pace but lacks the control.
Musah was the best player on the field last night and the only area that he lacks at the moment is his finishing touch... for a 19-year-old, that's astounding and he should be a staple in almost every starting lineup provided his form holds.
I'm also a huge fan of LDLT and Aaronson, who together are a great midfield pairing if you're facing an opponent who is going to concede possession and will force you to break them down. They both have the technical polish, vision, and skill (unlike McKinnie) and they both play fast and within their abilities (unlike Pulisic), but they are both smaller in stature and can be overwhelmed by physical play and big/fast midfielders.
However, if we're going into a match like England where we'll look to absorb pressure and then counter, the McKinnie/Musah/Adams midfield is elite at covering ground and breaking up an opponent's rhythm.
Thinking aloud, I wonder if, in the Iran game, we would consider playing Musah a little deeper in Adams spot, moving Adams out to right back (Dest is unreliable), and playing LDLT and Aaronson together ahead of them. That way we keep Adams and his calm intangibles on the field, but have get a little more juice and playmaking in the middle.
MMA midfield I think has to be the default. My guess is Aaronson will enter every match at the 60 minute mark and will replace whoever makes the most sense tactically for that match (Musah, Mckennie, Pulisic or Weah/Reyna)
I agree on the starting 11 and substitutions. The most unfortunate of all the injuries this team has had is Miles Robinson, who I thought had won a spot. Dest, Zimmerman and Antonee are locks to start. How much time has Richards played with the team this year? I love Dest's game but he does not seem to be on the same page with the others as much as the Robinsons. Will Yedlin, Cannon and Long all be on the plane?
I've been really impressed with LDLT the last few games. He is so calm and collected on the ball. However, Musah and Aaronson are electric, Adams plays more defensively and McKennie can do everything. I like Aaronson as a false 9 because his engine doesn't quit and can drop if needed. Musah (and LDLT in a slower way but with the ball at his feet) can drive up the middle. The potential on this team is really exciting.
Steffen can be a great keeper, but he has barely played and should have left City to stay sharp.
Yeah, Grenada has a population that is 2/3 of my city, Tallahassee--I have watched their teams practice in the national stadium. That was a joke, apparently a CONCACAF-mandated one, but. . .
I think we've got a fun, young group of pretty interesting guys. Injuries seem to be conspiring against Berhalter a little, which I regret. We're a World Cup away from serious contention, but getting out of the group stage would be very special.
I don't think keeper is as much of a problem as we thought. Sean Johnson looked really good against Uruguay and he's playing regularly in MLS. If need be, he would be a solid starting option in my opinion.
After last night it's pretty clear that Turner, Johnson, and Steffen should be the 3 keepers they bring to the WC and I'm thinking that order should be the depth chart for the position as well.
Keeper is only a problem if 1) None of the options are playing regularly at their clubs this fall and/or 2) Gregg decides Steffen is the top choice (because he's terrible).
Unfortunately one or both of these are quite possible.
The only unknowns are at number nine and at keeper. They better not put Steffen at keeper.
For striker, nobody has stood out consistently. They are going to have to pull a name out of a hat unfortunately. I personally think they should pic for striker the best player among wings midfield and pure striker that’s available.
I enjoyed the Harry Potter series, but i've never really been able to get into professional quidditch.
Honestly, I am shocked that none of the Ultra Rich have built a Quidditch Experience similar to all of the Space (all hail Zoltan) tourism companies. I'd pay $10k to play a legit game of Quidditch on a hover-broom.
You could always give a VR headset a try.... or drop acid....
And we all read a blog that largely covers a team in a sport that nearly 0% of the world gives a shit about outside of the US.
i didn't know soccer fans were so sensitive.....
They will have a couple matches in September played in Europe, so the top players don't need to travel far. Friendlies against Asian countries as final World Cup prep.
https://twitter.com/thegoalkeeper/status/1533591682180161537?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1533591682180161537%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mlssoccer.com%2Fnews%2Freport-usmnt-to-play-2-asian-powers-in-europe-during-september-international-win
Effort last night was good, but field conditions made the actual play pretty much meaningless. I think they've turned a corner and will be a tough out in the WC. The talent level is off the charts compared to previous iterations.
Came here to say the same thing. There is a 2-match FIFA window September 19th thru the 27th which will be filled with friendlies if it already hasn't been.
The rumor is games with South Korea and Saudi Arabia somewhere in Europe.
My biggest concern is not having figured out who our #9 is. We all thought it’d be Ricardo Pepi in mid to late 2021 but his form for both country and his new club in Germany hasn’t been great as of late.
I echo your sentiments. We clearly don't have the talent to depend on the #9 spot to deliver goals on the "world stage".
Both teams played on that field. No excuses.
No one made any excuses. It was a horrible game of soccer and ended evens. So it's whatever. I think the point is that there's very little if anything to be gleaned from that game.
I think that's a bit of a narrow view of the situation. Why do you think the small countries set up games in these trash fields in the first place? They do it because they know on a legit field they can't compete with the talent or athleticism of the bigger countries like the us. By playing in a mud pit they neuter their opponents Superior skill and turn it into a sloppy slugfest where one goal may make the difference. There was a corner kick that the US took late in the game were half of the ball was covered in mud. The problem with arguing that it affected both teams equally is the assumption that both teams had the same number of chances and that the quality of the chances was comparable.
Best guess for starting 11, backups in parentheses:
GK: Turner (Steffen)
LB: Robinson (Bello)
LCB: Long (Cannon)
RCB: McKenzie (Zimmerman)
RB: Dest (Yedlin)
LM: McKennie (Acosta)
CM: Aaronson (Musah)
RM: Adams (Lleget)
LF: Pulisic (Morris)
CF: Wright (Ferreira)
RF: Weah (Reyna)
Was really pulling for Ricardo Pepi and John Brooks to make the roster but it looks very doubtful for both
WTH happened to Pepi!? Looks like he wasn't ready for a move to Europe. I guess you don't know until you try? Time for John Brooks to move on. I appreciated his contributions to the USA, but his time has come and gone.
Pepi is playing in a tough league on a very bad team and getting 0 service. If he was on Dortmund or Bayern (he would never see the field, obviously -- but assuming all the guys in front of him got hurt and he started playing regularly) he would score more, surely.
You have Cannon as a backup CB?
I think he'll make the team, but not there.
Also, I think Ferreira does more off the ball work than Wright (and since neither can score); that will make the difference for me. But then again November is a LONG way off yet and GB will go with the hot hand. Hopefully Pepi finds some form (which might be hard playing on a very bad Bundesliga team).
A lot would have to go wrong for Lleget to get a call up at this point. He’s not even close. Same with McKenzie, I bet.
Haji definitely isn’t a starter, may not even make the Qatar team.
Acosta is going to be Adams’ back up as the #6, not McKennie.
I'd be shocked if Zimmerman isn't starting in the back, and kind of surprised if McKenzie even makes the team. Zimmerman's basically started every game with any stakes for the past year (and McKenzie's struggling to get time in the Belgian League).
I'd also be pretty nervous about Aaronson instead of Musah in the midfield, at least to start. None of our centerbacks are great passers, nor is Adams and I could see a team that has real problems moving from the back into the attack. Musah's biggest skill (which basically no other player on the team has) is his ability to carry the ball from the deep midfield into the attack. That mid-field seems more like one that you play if you're down a goal and a team is conceding possession.
Kinda some wild swings here.
Just as a note, any lineup that doesn't have Yunus Musah as a starter is wrong. Not that yesterday matters, but he was easily the best player on the field (if that's what you want to call it). What does matter is that he's a LOCK to start, like he has basically every meaningful match that he has been healthy since September.
Along the same lines, Walker Zimmerman is a LOCK to start at CB, like he has basically every meaningful match since October.
Wright just got his first call in and barely did anything to warrant being in the 23 much less the starter in Qatar.
The other CB is an issue. If Miles is injured (likely) then it should be Richards. But GGG may go with Long, which would be a bad choice. Either way, Cannon isn't going to be backing any of them up.
Also really hoping for Richards. Zimmerman/Long/Adams seems like it's going to have some real problems building out of the back.
Zimmerman's shown some ability to pick out long passes, but Adams seems to have significantly plateaued as a positive passer from the deep midfield (he still reads the game very well and is vital, particularly if he's going to play as a solo DM), and Long is basically a stopper without much ability to read the game from the back. That's potentially really an issue in the first game, where I expect Wales to give the US the ball.
No offense but did you write this a year ago? Seems like a lot of these have been decidedly ruled out over the course of this cycle.
For example, Zimmerman is a locked in starter and Mckenzie is on the outside looking in for even making the roster. Acosta is 100% Adams backup at DM. Ferreira is clearly ahead of Wright and all the other strikers (though that is one spot that is clearly very unsettled and subject to change). Lletget is out of the picture at this point (if they take another CM it will likely be Roldan or Busio). Morris is the 6th Winger (behind Pulisic Weah Reyna Aaronson and Arriola) and will be a tough call if he makes the roster.
Probably something more like this:
Turner (Steffen)
LB Robinson (Scally/Peredes?)
CB Zimmerman (CCV)
CB Richards (Long)
RB Dest (Yedlin)
DM Adams (Acosta)
CM Musah (De La Torre)
CM Mckennie (Aaronson)
LW Pulisic (Aaronson/Arriola)
ST Ferreira (Pepi/Wright)
RW Weah (Reyna)
Randy stop drinking and go home.
The responses to you are legit and way more accurate.
Zimm is CB1 with the injury we suffered. Otherwise he had earned CB2.
Haji was so bad against a garbage team even his coach called him out. Sat him at half
#9 is an eternal issue for the US side. I would try someone like Weah or Reyna at this stage. It's audacious in a country of 330M we don't have a single #9 of real quality.
I was really perplexed by Berhalters comments on Wright. He missed a chance, but otherwise was OK. Ferrera was just as unimpressive in the 2nd half. But I guess that 1 chance was all that matters to Berhalter and Haji's now out? Never mind that he was scoring like a goal a game the last half of his season.
Seemingly getting the start at the 9 against Grenada was like winning the striker sweepstakes for the usmnt. That amazing 4 goal performance against a rec ed team likely landed Ferrera the starting job.
Re: playing in terrible field conditions: Somewhat reminiscent of playing in a blizzard in the mountains, isn't it?
General thoughts re: the USMNT: I have no clue on the roster and who should or should not be playing. And frankly, it doesn't matter. As much as I love the game of soccer, it is plainly a tier-2 sport in this country that can't hope to compete with what is going on around the world. Until things change at a base level around this country's interest in the sport to match what it is elsewhere (it won't), the USA men's team is forever doomed to be a regional contender (not dominant force, mind you) that will continue to be bounced from the WC in the group stages on the regular. The USA has invested heavily in bringing the game up from what it was in the 90s and before, at the youth level in particular. But there are still no academies, nor will there be anytime soon. And grassroots hipster support of local clubs made up of 25-year old former D-II bench players can only capture the imagination so long. Even Pulisic, who is fantastic by our standards and a shining example of the progress that's been made to date wouldn't get a sniff by some of the teams that many delusional USMNT slappies think we have a chance of competing with. Progressing out of the group stages should be celebrated as the accomplishment it is. And if we are being honest with ourselves, it should be celebrated as a massive overachievement.
This comment is straight out of 2005.
And it rings just as true today as it did then.
USMNT WC results:
- 1994 - loss in round of 16 to Brazil
- 1998 - loss in group stages (4th place, behind Iran)
- 2002 - loss in quarter finals to Germany
- 2006 - loss in group stages (4th place, but hey, we tied Italy)
- 2010 - loss in round of 16 to Ghana
- 2014 - loss in round of 16 to Belgium
- 2018 - did not qualify - behind Costa Rica, Mexico, and Panama
- 2022 - ?
So wait, you're saying that the US made it out of the group stage in 4 of the last 7 WCs, yet doing so again would be a "massive overachievement"? That makes no logical sense even before considering the massive leap in player quality on the team over the last 10-20 years.
Seriously, try to pick out a player from the 1998-2014 era who would undoubtedly start on this current team. It's hard to find one. We have more players playing in top 5 European leagues than ever, and players are getting over there as teenagers now.
Oh, and MLS is a huge league now. It can be argued that that's done more for the region than for the US, but it's still a huge growth to the game overall.
Your comment is kinda just really ignorant.
Getting out of the group stage this year, and doing it on the regular will be a massive overachievement, I believe. The consensus appears to be that our squad now is light years beyond what it was, pointing to players playing in Europe, growth of MLS, and the like. I would point to other indicators like - the bulk of our foreign-based players are legacy or moved overseas to get the kind of development that is needed to play at a high level. While we may have more players playing abroad than we did in the past, that doesn't necessarily translate to success at the national level. It's certainly an improvement, sure, and I hope the soccer we play is more than just trying to outwork opponents like it was in the past, but we'll see.
And importantly, you're forgetting that, in the past decade of growth and transcendental growth, the US completely failed to qualify for the WC in 2018 and was hardly impressive in its qualification bid for the current cycle. But hey, the Canadians are coming on strong.
Also, MLS is a huge league now? It has money because corporate sponsors want what the leagues in Europe have. And to do that, they've turned the league into a cross between a place for cheap young talent and a retirement community for world-class players that can't make it in other leagues. Watching Rooney, at his advanced age, destroy younger players in the MLS was eye-opening about the gulf between talent levels.
Please don't mistake my lack of giddy optimism and kool-aid drinking for ignorance. That term is thrown around far too recklessly these days.
"Getting out of the group stage this year, and doing it on the regular will be a massive overachievement"
lol the US definitely has the 2nd best betting odds in the group, which would mean getting out of the group stage. Not even an ornery Englishman who hates the US would say that's a massive overachievement.
"Watching Rooney, at his advanced age, destroy younger players in the MLS was eye-opening about the gulf between talent levels."
You're bashing MLS as if the best American players don't play for major European clubs.
https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/roster-prediction-2-0-who-usmnt-could-bring-to-qatar-2022-world-cup
Matt Doyle predicts the roster here. Of his 13 locks, only 3 play in the MLS.
Sorry if you don't like the term "ignorant" but I stand by it, esp after this last comment of yours. Knowing who Wayne Rooney is doesn't make you knowledgable.
Your argument, frankly, makes no sense. Are you saying because the majority of the current national team had their development happen overseas that it diminishes the quality of the team? Like, what? You know that this is extremely common all over global soccer, right? Like, it's not even worth bringing up because it's so ubiquitous. And even if it weren't, who cares where our players are being developed? What difference does that make to the quality of the team? The fact that they are able to go to these overseas academies and show out and make it on to the first team speaks volumes.
And you are majorly underselling MLS. It's true that no superstars in their prime want to play there, but that's also true of every league in the world outside the top 5 European leagues. What is also true is that a ton of young US players have been sold from MLS clubs to mid and high level European clubs in the last 5 years. That's how global soccer works and it's a testament to the improved development in US soccer that these players (Busio, Sands, Vines, Bello, Slonina, Pepi, McKennie and Aaronson a while ago) are being given these opportunities. This simply wasn't happening a decade ago.
I'll ignore your comment about this cycle since it seems like you didn't even watch the games, or else you'd know that they demonstrate superior skill and dominate possession and shots against every team they play in CONCACAF, including Mexico. The fact is they created more quality chances than any other team in qualifying, but were let down by some unlucky/poor finishing, not to mention crazy injuries. Oh, and they were by far the youngest team in the world this whole cycle.
Keep banging that ignorant drum, though.
This is so off base for everything that has happened in the last decade. In the past, the US would be happy to have a handful of players on EPL rosters, like Dempsey at Fulham or Howard at Everton. Today, USMNT players litter the rosters of the top teams in the world, regularly playing in domestic cups and champions league. Dest at Barcelona, Pulisic at Chelsea, Mckennie at Juventus, Reyna at Dortmund, Adams at RB Leipzieg, Weah at Lille, etc. Is the US the same as France? No, but this is a top 15 roster with top 10 potential in the next 5 years. The US is one of the youngest teams in the world and deeper than they've ever been.
And not sure why you think there are no academies. Most MLS teams have regional academies now and more are on the way, and that's lead to the boom of young talent. FC Dallas has turned out McKennie (Juventus), Ricardo Pepi, Chris Richards (Bayern Munich), and Reggie Cannon alone. Philadelphia, NY RedBull, Seattle Sounders, NYCFC, LA Galaxy all have great academies that have been running for a long time, continually churning out prospects. More players are being found younger, evidenced in this year's WC roster.
Are they guaranteed to advance out of groups? Of course not, that's hardly a guarantee for all but the top teams in the world. But to insinuate this is the same old USMNT and nothing has fundamentally changed in the US soccer landscape is misguided.
I agree that there has been a lot of progress made in the USA, but while they are steps in the right direction. And this point should be understood clearly by looking at the development of the players you listed as examples of the USA's progress:
- Dest - born in the Netherlands and developed in Dutch academies before going to Barcelona
- McKennie - began in Germany, later development through FC Dallas - good number of appearances for Schalke and Juventus before injury
- Reyna - legacy player - 8 years with NY club (until 13), joined Dortmund's academy
- Adams - NY product, made the jump to first team, then sold to Leipzig
- Weah - son of legendary Ballon d'Or winner George Weah, who was coached by his father and uncle before moving to PSG's academy at the age of 14
- Pulisic - started in England, played in Michigan! and the midwest growing up, signed by Dortmund at the age of 16
Half of the list you provided as an example of USA's progress is composed of players who were hand-groomed by their family of professional soccer players or born and developed abroad. Even the players that spent time in the US still look to make the jump abroad. Has the US made progress? Of course. Has it made meaningful progress such that we should expect to make the quarter-finals every cycle? There's a long way to go for that.
I view the legacy players--generational transfer of soccer abilities--as evidence of of progress and a certain kind of development.
Also, your comment above that there are no academies remains just flat out wrong. Are the academies on the same level as those in England or Germany, no, but they exist and they are producing some good quality young players. There's more work to be done, of course.
Dude, you are setting a ridiculous bar to try and make your point. Want to guess how many nations have made the QF more than 3 times out of the last 6 tournaments?
The answer is 4: Argentina, Brazil, France, and Germany.
So, yeah, if your point is that we're not on the level of those nations yet, you've got us.
Yeah and it sucked the US didn't qualify but Italy has now failed to qualify for the 2nd cycle in a row (granted UEFA is tougher). I believe France didn't qualify like 8 years ago. France didn't qualify in 90 or 94 and they've had some terrible performances even after getting in.