OT: USMNT Discussion
For those who follow the USMNT, the US played at El Salvador last night as part of the CONCACAF Nations League qualifier round. The field conditions were, bar none, the absolute worst I've seen for any professional sport. I'm honestly not sure I ever played on a field that bad in high school. The US escaped with a 1-1 draw, thanks to a 90th minute goal from Jordan Morris. It was sloppy, ugly, dirty, and a game that felt like one the US usually would have lost. I'm fine with the result, given the awful conditions.
That said, I believe the next time we'll see the men's team is when they kick off against Wales in November, for their first WC group stage game. (I could be wrong here, but I don't see any scheduled games until then. Seems a long break with no games.)
I'm curious the board's thoughts on who you like for the roster, who you don't, and who you think will ultimately be part of the group heading to Qatar in November.
So, I quit prostethyzing a long time ago. Like the team, don't like the team. I don't care. We share club fandom, (howay!) so maybe that's why I'm even bothering to write anything. All of that to say, just as someone who is on-looking, your argument is weird and confusing... or wrong in some cases.
You mention the lack of academies. For all of his faults, Juergen revolutionized the US Academy system. Honestly, that's largely what we're seeing in terms of the bounty of European based players at high level European clubs now.
But I don't want to nitpick weird shit.
Most rational people will look at the placement of guys like Dest, McKennie, Reyna, Adams, Weah, Pulisic, Aaronson, Steffen, and even "projects" like EPV, CCV, Dike, etc etc. as a SIGNIFICANT improvement even on 10 years ago. You are saying they were "hand groomed" for this by their families or developed abroad? I dunno man. Honestly, you can look at nearly every top national side and see a bunch of guys who had options. The Germany teams in the 00s were basically a bunch of polish players. France constantly raids northern Africa. No one makes this argument about other countries. Either way though, there's no "fair and honest" way to look at the amount of americans at top european sides as anything but progress. Otherwise you're spending your time splitting hairs and reading birth certificates for "proofs."
Also you've noted the WC performance as a negative? Everyone agrees not qualifying in 18 was awful. But even the iconic sides like Netherlands England and Italy have had times of not qualifying since 1990 when we've literally qualified every time. And only failed to get out of group twice as well. Thats actually an accomplishment. I guess it comes down to what you deem as a success and what you don't.
That said, the original point was until the country supports the team then it'll always be a second class citizen and not worthy of fandom. (paraphrasing) I've been following this team since Italia 90, and the leaps that domestic fandom have taken in 30 years has been immeasurable.
But again, your points of contention to me are mostly long term signs of success. I dont think that the USSF is bulletproof by any stretch. And I have considerable issue with Gregg and honestly the US's attitude toward coaching in general.
I don't think it's realistic to think that this team should be performing at the level of Spain, Germany, France or Brazil. Maybe some day, and I think that's realistic given where they were and where they are now given a relatively short amount of time. But even those teams don't ALWAYS make the Quarters. Shit they don't always get out of group. Getting out of group is and should be the reasonable goal. Win the next match and you're in the quarters. That's a big success.
Anywho, again, I'm not in the business of converting "sinners." You don't have to like the team. My preference isn't to see a bunch of American fans cherry picking national sides, you're born into it. But I don't get a vote. That said, I think maybe your overall attitude toward the team was probably bred a while back, and you may be carrying some of those opinions forward, even though the reality has changed. Just a thought.
Howay!
I'm definitely not intending to tell anyone whether the USMNT deserves or doesn't deserve their fandom. And I certainly was around and following the team long enough to have my current opinion shaped in part by past iterations of the team. I'll also acknowledge that my comment about there being no academies was wrong. I also may not be aware of the extent to which they are developing players capable of playing on a national team that has the ability to regularly make it out of the group stages. I'll also acknowledge that I may not be doing my best to make myself understood as I'm dividing my attention.
I could try it all over again, but I'm guessing that a mea culpa will have to do and that it'd be better to just have this discussion over a pint at the bar in person.
LOL I'm not sure that you need to do any of those things. My guess is there will probably be enough piling on either way. The fact of the matter is, you really don't have to like the team. That said, the psyche of a stateside fan, in particular the USMNT, is an interesting thing. And is also what likely breeds such strong responses. (The comments at The Athletic are particularly bonkers)
If they're anything like me, they've spent the better portion of the last 30 years hearing domestically how it's not a sport, and abroad how everyone is content to marginalize the US. As such, you've got a bunch of fans who are like mutant indie rock fans who have a band they've been obsessing about their entire life, who are definitely hitting it big in the main stream, but still have naysayers, and carry a generation or two worth of latent baggage from when they were just a little niche thing that barely anyone cared about (and when those people who didnt care said anything, it was basically just to shit on it).
I'm just personally at peace with the idea that not everyone has to love the thing I love. Even if they like similar things (sports, soccer) or are technically fans due to birthright.
I don't see why you're trying to frame this as some kind of epiphany. Of course our best youth prospects go outside of domestic academies to the world-class clubs... that's normal for every country in the world outside of England, Germany, Italy, and a handful of others.
Look, the US' World Cup success in the past has come purely on the back of grit and effort. We're known for leaving everything on the field and hanging in with nations far above our weight class... but we've never actually been serious contenders to win because we just didn't have the talent and you can't consistently win without having the ball.
That's just starting to change, where if you squint you can see the makings of a team that has the potential to go toe-to-tie with the heavyweights. When the US played Germany in the 2014 World Cup, Germany had 68% of the possession. Now, maybe that's only 60-62%. Maybe in another four-eight years, we can get it down to 55%.
Also, nothing in the way this USMNT is assembled that isn't sustainable. Look at Canada's national team: there's proof of concept in players like Davies, David, and Buchanan that North American domestic leagues are capable of developing world-class players, and the likelihood that the quantity/quality of players coming out of these academies will increase as well (since the majority are less than a decade old). I can see a future where the majority of US players will have a similar development path as Brendan Aaronson vs hopping over to a European super club as a teenager.
Can't wait to see what this team can do. I just wish we had a true #9. Seems like the one position that we can't seem to develop. We've had / have amazing goal keepers. Solid backline. True talents in the midfield. Why can't we get just one #9 that is talented enough to compete on the world stage.
The good news is the primary options (Ferreira and Pepi) are both super young and could make big strides in the next 5 months.
Also Ferreira is already pretty dang good.
There will be one more window in September. We'll be playing Asian teams in Europe.
As for the roster, Sean Johnson over Horvath for me (we have to have at least one GK who's getting playing time), Jordan Morris needs to be there, Haji Wright ain't it at striker. I think Ferreria does more work off the ball and we all know Berhalter wants that.
Brooks is obviously good enough to be on the team, even if he's not been great for the US in his most recent appearances, but there's clearly more to this story that the public may not know about for a long time, so I would say don't expect to see him.
Aaron Long will probably get that last spot, along with Richards, Zimmerman and CCV now that Miles Robinson is out.
I absolutely ADORE Aaronson (he reminds me of a young Landon Donovan with his style, not necessarily the same level of dominance LD had though) and de la Torre has really impressed me the last few outings as well.
Oh also, I'm just gonna go ahead and brag -- but I will be at the World Cup!! :)
SWAG indeed!!! Congrats on being there at the WC. What an experience that will be! Also, I agree on Aaronson and hope dl la Torre continues to develop.
Agree completely on Johnson. Having the top two keepers second choice for their teams is extremely scary. Steffen, in particular, seems totally uncertain every time he plays.
I've never been convinced by Morris, he does get into dangerous places but just doesn't seem to have the technical ability to do anything when he's there (either as a finisher or a combination player) but with a 26 person roster, it's likely that he goes. I hope we only take one of Morris or Arriola, though, as they seem like basically the same player.
I'm still hoping that Pepi can find some confidence, because he provides both combination play and finishing in a way that no other striker in the pool does when he's playing at his best. As of right now, Ferreria has to be the starter (though it seems like he'll play somewhat withdrawn).
De la Torre and/or Aaronson are going to be key for the first game, either starting or as subs. Wales is going to sit deep and let the US have the ball, but if the US does their "send it to the overlapping backs on the wings/cross it in" thing, they're going to eat that up and really hit us on the counter. The US is going to need guys who can play quick combinations through the middle to unlock their defense.
Why does Jordan Morris need to be there? Unless he regains a lot of what he has lost to injury, he seems pretty far down the winger depth chart to me, and he has done almost nothing impressive in the last couple windows.
Well he's only been in this window and last. Everything else has been a year long injury.
As far as nothing impressive, and by the way I'm NOT a Jordan Morris fan or MLS slappy with a proclivity to insta-defend MLS players, if you saw last night's match, you saw exactly what Morris can do. It's not ball moves, or work rate, or really put the team on his back or any of those things. But when the team needed him, he stepped up to the moment in the 90th minute (something he's done in the past as well), absolutely BEASTED some poor Salvadoran defender, and finished by putting a corner in the net. He was big, thicc and the defender could do literally nothing. The guy ended up on his back and never even looked at the goal, he knew he had no chance.
I think there needs to be room for specialists. We need a guy who can come in and has the "knack" to find the back of the net when called upon. I don't think I was a "Jordan in the 23" guy until maybe last night.
I don't disagree with any of this, I just think the unique skills he brings are really only suited to slugfests in CONCACAF and against higher quality sides he'll get exposed badly. I also think what he brings isn't that unique to what, say, an Arriola does and we don't need both of them.
I also think you are suffering from major recency bias. He played in all of their 5 last competitive matches and until last night's goal was *completely* invisible.
I'd maybe take him in the 26 if it ends up like that, but no way he's in the 23
Are Giancarlo Busio and Ricardo Pepi just the latest versions of Freddy Adu? Massively hyped because of their potential as young players, but ultimately fall flat once they get put to the test?
There seemed to be so much optimism for those guys back in the Fall, and they both seemed to have fallen away.
Also, what do the rest of you think of Malik Tillman? Rostered with Bayern Munich, but it seems he chose the USMNT because he didn't see a path to playing for the German national team.
Whoa, whoa, whoa there. Settle down with the whole Freddy takes. Ricardo Pepi is what 19 years old and has only been on the scene for 8 months? Busio has even less of a shot than Pepi. Freddy Adu was a guy who was dubbed the savior of American soccer, the "Jordan", and had YEARS to live up to the (hysterically too high) hype.
When has instant gratification ever really been a thing? Or good for that matter? These things take time and the players need that time to develop.
As far as Tillman, he's a project. An exciting prospect for sure. He had the opportunity to pick Germany, played with their U21s but wasn't likely as a 19 year old to be on their senior side in December. The Bundesliga alone is filled with Germans playing midfield who are starting in their league, and won't sniff the senior German side. The talent pool is deep and wide. Not being likely at 19 years old to make the German team right now isn't exactly something to be disappointed about. It is clear though, Germany wanted him. And he disappointed them by picking the US. Now he needs time to develop and let's see who he becomes. Maybe he's another Julian Green. Maybe he's the next Weston. Let's find out.
I can't answer for any of the Busio hype - as a Sporting KC fan, if anyone was propping him up as an uber-prospect, then I don't know what to tell you - but Ricardo Pepi has had a poor run of form.
However, you simply don't write off a U-20 striker who had a disappointing couple of windows with the national team (while out of season with his MLS team) then moved up to the second-best league in the world and proceeded to lose even more confidence. Truthfully, it was a heavy reality check and how he responds will determine his outlook. He may come firing out of the blocks this fall, it may take 2-3 years for it to click in Germany before he starts finding the net (at which point he'd still be young and have a decade with the national team to look forward to) or he could go the Josh Sargent route and just never have the game slow down for him.
Regardless, Pepi was never an Erling Halaand / Robert Lewandowski robo-striker prospect where you would never dream of taking him off the field. In fact, most world-class strikers like Harry Kane, Karim Benzema, Diego Costa, and Álvaro Morata float in and out of their national pictures depending on their form, who's managing the team, how they want to play, and how in-form their competition is. That's simply the nature of the position, so there's plenty of time for it all to shake out in a positive manner.
Tillman seems intriguing, his size and technical ability alone are worthwhile. However, there were times in this window, especially vs Grenada, where he just looked downright awful on the field and didn't seem to be reading the game at all. Granted, he's only 17, so there's still quite a bit of development ahead of him, but my biggest question with him (especially as a midfielder) is will he ever develop the mental side of the game to match his physical and technical gifts.
This is all well put about Pepi. I'll just add that transferring into a team in a relegation battle is not the recipe for short term development. Such teams get really desperate and tend to go with players that they think won't screw up and make mistakes that lead to goals/losses that have massive financial consequences.
I've never heard a great case why Pepi and his representatives settled on Augsburg, which doesn't really seem a great team to go to as a young player making a jump to a higher level (eg, it's not seen as some font of talent development, they had to know Augsburg was in a relegation battle). It's probably that it was the best offer he had, but he was getting interest from teams that do have reputations for allowing young talent to develop and flourish, eg Dortmund and Ajax.
Honestly, when he picked Augsburg, my guess was the Dortmund and Ajax rumors weren't super solid. Agree though, not sure that Augsburg was the best location, it's just so hard to know what the real options are from what the fake ones were. Transfer rumors are their own crazy, crazy beast. But if they chose Augsburg over any of the handful of better developmental options because of the deal... well, that's on them (agent and advisors). Penny wise pound foolish if true.
I am still unsure why if we have questions a Center Back and #9 why John Brooks and Josh Sargent (hurt?) aren’t even getting looks right now. Carter Vickers looked like the best CB last night so hoping he gets more looks this summer for WC in Nov. If there is no #9, which there appears to be no #9, why not take a page out of Liverpool and Man City’s book of using a false 9 and place Aaronson as the #9 and just give the USMNT the best 11 and forget a true #9. I get using as many as possible for the last 4 matches but there are a few players who are getting time in Europe who seem on paper to make this team better
Ferreira is already a better false 9 than Aaronson would be. And Reyna or Weah could also fill that role. I think the concern over the 9 is a bit overblown tbh.
Regarding Brooks, there's rumors that off-field issues are what is keeping him out of the team.
Agree on CCV. With Miles Robinson and Richards hurt, he looks like the best option to go next to Zimmerman. I'm still hoping Richards is healthy and the choice in November though.
CCV and Zimmerman are similar styles - big strong good in the air, but maybe not as athletic. I don’t think you’re going to see both of them paired up - it’s also why Long is getting a look, even though he’s still not where he was athletically before his injury. I’m guessing Long and Richards for the next step, and I’m hoping Richards steps up and seizes the position (that’s my anti MLS bias speaking)
I think Richards is objectively better, both in a vacuum and in how he complements Zimmerman, than any of the other options. I also think Berhalter thinks that too. It's all about health. Taking Zim/Richards with backups of CCV/Long isn't the worst thing in the world.