OT: Are you sending your children back to in person school if given a different option?
I apologize if this topic has already been addressed. My kid’s district allowed parents to vote on in person or virtual learning this upcoming school year. They decided to allow both. The virtual learning is 9 weeks of live, virtual teaching with re-evaluation after that period. The other option is to send them back for full time for in person learning. My wife and I both agree that although we feel that in person in the best way to learn, and we have a very sociable child, we aren’t willing to subject our kid to that risk. I’d like to hear the opinions of other MgoBloggers with relevant experiences and decisions with younger children.
August 16th, 2020 at 10:20 AM ^
Could you cite some data showing that the strep fatality rate is higher for kids than Covid?
August 16th, 2020 at 10:20 AM ^
The paper says there are 1100 to 1600 deaths in the US from strep a year and that the 5 to 17 age group is the lowest risk age group.
August 16th, 2020 at 12:53 PM ^
Where are kids "socializing in huge groups"? I'd like to know, honestly. At least here in Boston we've had limited large gatherings, certainly not on a consistent basis.
I respect you making the decision that works best for your family. At the same time, the vast majority of kids haven't been around each other in large groups since March, so my guess is the incidence rate of kids being infected is also really low. So some of it may simply be a lack of exposure due to limited social contact; it's telling that when colleges and HSes have started opening back up COVID-19 positive cases have jumped up as well for those kids.
August 16th, 2020 at 12:11 AM ^
Our 4yo will be going to PreK...they won’t mask or distance bc they’re 4 Yo’s.
I’ve been in elementary Ed for 16 years...virtual is best of a bad situation but at least right now a very poor substitute for in person instruction especially for younger kids. There will be pretty sizable gaps in learning to be made up.
Do what you’re comfortable with. Personally I’m of the opinion this is pretty overblown so I’m not all that worried. At the end of the day I’ll choose mental well being and critical socialization benefits over any (what I believe to be) small risk there may be for our son. Staying hone w an active 4yo all day is...exhausting to say the least.
With the current climate of thinking, I honestly don’t see the vast majority of American k12 schools being in person at all this year. Once one kid or teacher inevitably gets COVID the school is done.
August 16th, 2020 at 12:41 AM ^
Those of you sending your kids back to school without hesitation are right that the kids are highly unlikely to get sick. But you’re totally disregarding the fairly high odds that they will unwittingly spread the virus to others, both kids and adults. You’re not considering the degree to which packing a bunch of people into a school jeopardizes teachers, janitors, administrators, parents. Schools aren’t bubbles. Outbreaks will spread fast. They already have in schools that have reopened. Many adults will get sick and die because of parents who can’t or won’t see beyond their own narrow interests. This isn’t even disputable. But I guess you’re okay with that.
August 16th, 2020 at 1:15 AM ^
Your description is overly simplistic. Let’s go into a bit more detail:
1. If the janitor, teacher or admin in your example is a relatively healthy individual under 70, then no, they probably won’t die. They have between a 96-99% chance of not dying. Realize that if you strip out deaths in nursing homes and those with identifiable pre-existing conditions or risk factors, the number of deaths drops by well over 50% and by as much as 80%. If you doubt this data, to to forward.ny.gov, which is the N.Y. State date maintained and overseen by (Democratic) NY Governor Cuomo.
2. Many parents have watched their children suffer greatly from distance learning and being isolated from their friends. The effects on children have been significant and can alter the direction of their lives. Call me selfish if you will, but my job as a parent is to look out for my child’s well being. If there are those in the school ecosystem who are at risk from Covid, then those individuals may need to take extra precautions, including perhaps not attending school of the semester (students, teachers or children of those at risk). We simply can’t lock our kids down forever.
3. Your statements assume that kids and parents are not mixing outside of school. They are, in large numbers, whether at beaches, parties, indoors, outdoors, etc. Last week I attended an indoor dinner party with 7 families. No masks were worn and everyone had a nice time. We are in NY where the numbers are close to zero now. One of the people at the party was a teacher. She was making the same points that you are making - that school will out her at extreme risk. So she was. It comfortable being in school with 16 kids (wearing masks) in her room, but she was fine being in a house with around 30 people without masks and no social distancing.
4. During this whole pandemic, we have asked doctors, nurses, grocery store clerks, cab drivers and many others to work in close contact with hundreds or thousands of people a day. Tens of thousands pass through a busy Walmart in a given day. Hell, offices across the country are open now. And there is no outcry, because these are “essential” services. Is school not essential?
5. You realize that during this whole pandemic, day care centers have remained open and these haven’t been many, if any, significant outbreaks tied to those centers. Moreover, schools will be reopening in person in most countries that previously closed in March and April. While I would not necessarily advocate opening schools in counties or states with rampant surging infections (Cali, Hawaii and Georgia), but one states where the positivity rate is below 5%, there is zero reason to keep schools closed.
August 16th, 2020 at 4:25 AM ^
You raise the important point here: the number of people (kids and adults) already gathering in large numbers at parties, etc., inside and outside is essentially back to pre-Covid levels. I see it in my own neighborhood every day. Whatever risk schools (and communities) think they are minimizing is completely futile.
I think the reasons are, in no particular order: pandemic exhaustion, level of perceived risk, the natural inclination to socialize, and (I imagine for some) apathy. I know a lot of teachers personally, and while I sympathize with their situation (most are terrified), your example and those I have seen suggest to me that there is at least some cognitive dissonance associated with that fear; i.e. they'll attend parties with dozens of people with barely a second thought, but being in a classroom is a bridge too far.
There will be an increase in Covid associated with the return to school - it's already happening in schools that are back in session, and no one disputes that. However, the school experience (other than places like Georgia, apparently, where everyone seems to be utterly clueless, apathetic, or both) is going to be a LOT different. One-way halls, masks, staggered lunch periods, minimized physical contact, etc... And teachers who are terrified to be there. It won't be the experience that kids (or parents) remember.
Everyone, regardless of their opinions on the issue, is simply trying to pick up a turd by the clean end.
August 16th, 2020 at 1:47 PM ^
So do you live in Georgia? Because I do and I'm just going to tell you that this is a perfect example of not believing everything you see through the media. I happen to live in North Georgia near where these incidents have occurred, and people are taking it seriously, taking precautions, wearing masks and being diligent. But according to the mainstream media all you're going to hear is how we're bunch of rogue Southern good old boys that don't give a s***. Again I wouldn't believe everything I read, take it with a grain of salt. Also the large 600-bed medical system for which I work as a nurse, is now seeing a decrease in our cases so there's that....which you probably won't see reported...
August 16th, 2020 at 9:04 AM ^
Last week I attended an indoor dinner party with 7 families. No masks were worn and everyone had a nice time.
This attitude is why Covid is running wild in the US like Hulkamania.
August 16th, 2020 at 9:51 AM ^
You are wrong. The US isn’t one monolith country. It is made up of different regions. My entire neighborhood and much of my state is interacting as I described. And guess what? NY has the lowest infection rate in the country. Long Island, where I live, has less than 1% (hovering between .6 and .8% over the past 2 months). Serious question: Why is is that despite the reprehensible behavior and choices that me and my community are making, covid isn’t even ticking up in our area, let along surging? Any by contrast, what state has had the most comprehensive lockdown? Hawaii? What state is currently experiencing this steepest spike in confirmed cases? Hawaii. Can you please explain that, or is that level of factual detail not covered in the “mouth feathers are spreading this thing by now cowering in fear” newsletter?
(To look at Hawaii’s curve, just google “Hawaii Covid Stats. On this same page, you can toggle to see each state’a curve. It may be interesting to note that the curve in the mouth breathing states like Tennessee, South Carolina and Arizona Seems to be falling rapidly despite lack of distancing and lockdowns, almost identical to the downward section of the curves of the lockdown states. Hmmm? Almost as if these “mitigation” measures might not be all that the media is making them and that this virus just hits a location, runs through it, and when enough people get exposed to hit some level of community localized immunity, falls off).
August 16th, 2020 at 10:59 AM ^
That’s bullshit. I live in Westchester and despite having it relatively under control almost everyone I know limits their events to outdoors and distances unless it’s a small group of families that are akin to a pod. I have eaten at outdoor restaurants but would not be comfortable eating indoors or spending any time inside friends houses. Very few people I know are so cavalier to hang out indoors with 30 people
August 16th, 2020 at 12:22 PM ^
The fact that you don’t know people who are gathering in large groups in Westchester doesn’t disapprove that I know many, many people in large groups who are gathering both on Long Island and throughout the state. We may just associate with different types of people. Also, just for your reference, I will note that on average over the past month, West Chester (where you believe people are not gathering in large groups) has a .2% higher positivity rate for covid than Long Island.
August 16th, 2020 at 7:03 AM ^
On the flip side, you're okay with kids being at exponentially higher risk of developing psychological disorders like depression and anxiety at a critical time in their mental development, that could affect them for the rest of their lives.
August 16th, 2020 at 8:12 AM ^
What is the equation? That's what I'd like to know... as I see it the equation looks like this... (Chances of negative outcome of Covid * the Long term impact of that negative outcome) vs. (Chances of negative emotional outcome * the long term impact of that negative outcome). While the emotional outcome is more likely, the opportunity to address it is much easier.
The long term impact of lung scarring for example is difficult to address in any meaningful way. Even thought the chances are low the potential impact that is impossible to remediate is much higher. Conversely there are many ways to deal with the emotional and psychological impacts of being in quarantine.
I think that is the part that I have a difficult time with. I see and know that the psychological impacts to the family are hard. But I also believe they can be addressed. What I can't see being addressed is the very real, albeit small, risk of a long term physical impact to the child or to the family or to the staff of the school, assuming that death is such a low risk as to not be measured. (As it seems some are doing above).
August 16th, 2020 at 8:30 AM ^
itauditbill, so let me get this straight. You do not want in-person schools because of a hypothetical long-term health risk to anyone who has had COVID, but were perfectly fine in sending your kids to the KNOWN long-term health risk of flu/pneumonia that diminishes lungs for decades after hospitalization for tens of thousands of kids. That is not a hypothetical but never kept you up a single night. There actually may be no long-term impact of COVID (like its many cold cousins we catch routinely) on the lungs, but the chance there might is now your primary fear?!?!
August 16th, 2020 at 1:25 PM ^
I’m pretty sure that it is not widely “KNOWN” that there are ling term health risk that effects tens of thousands of kids. I’m not saying it’s not true, but personally I’ve never heard that and I wasn’t able to find much from an admittedly quick web search. I would think for instance, the CDC might cite this as a reason to get your child vaccinated for the flu? It didn’t come up in any searches I did on why get children vaccinated flu.
August 16th, 2020 at 9:18 AM ^
Bingo. At what point is the cure worse than the disease? IMO, we’ve easily crossed that point. Look at deaths of despair...drug use, suicide, domestic abuse...
August 16th, 2020 at 10:16 AM ^
The possible negative mental effects of remote learning on kids is such a bullshit slippery slope. As is the notion that somehow you’re instilling fear if you, you know, keep them safer by not putting them in a classroom.
August 16th, 2020 at 10:29 AM ^
I've been thinking about how people whose usual response to mental health concerns is some mixture of "It's all in your head!" and "We need more prayer in schools!" are suddenly giving a shit about it ("'THERE GONNA BE SUICIDES!").
August 16th, 2020 at 2:46 PM ^
This.
August 16th, 2020 at 10:39 AM ^
Do you feel that using stronger, more condescending language somehow makes your argument more valid? The longterm effects of social isolation on children has long been observed and documented. It's not a "bullshit slippery slope." The idea that children are at a huge risk of becoming seriously ill from COVID though?...
August 16th, 2020 at 10:58 AM ^
What you don’t cuss? You’re definitely on some bullshit then. Also, kids don’t have to be isolated, but they also don’t have to be in a school of hundreds. There are many ways to combat isolation with responsible socialization.
August 16th, 2020 at 11:06 AM ^
I'm not complaining about the cursing. It's the general nature of your comment, that it doesn't have a lot of substance. You're just kinda swearing at people and calling them names for not agreeing with you.
August 16th, 2020 at 11:34 AM ^
The substance is that citing the negative mental effects argument for putting your kid in school is a lazy argument, so is the living in fear argument. Both are being used by people who have decided to further put their communities at risk by smashing kids in an enclosed space for a few hours each day with an infectious disease still very present, a disease with many possible adverse effects. Any way you slice it, it’s a selfish act if there are alternatives, but, hey, it’s the US so do what you want and let’s all hope this just goes away on its own.
August 16th, 2020 at 12:00 PM ^
Well, if what you're saying is true, which again, you haven't really provided any sound reasoning for, then perhaps your frustration would be better directed towards school administrators across the country who have made the decision to allow kids back in schools. Do you think their reasoning is lazy?
August 16th, 2020 at 1:00 PM ^
Could you cite something to substantiate that “exponentially higher risk”? Does this compare some ideal in person scenario or consider that evidence has already shown that some number of kids will be for ed to flip back and forth because of local outbreaks, that there will be significant social distancing at many schools etc.?
August 16th, 2020 at 10:43 AM ^
You, your kids and other concerned parents and kids will not get sick from my kids being in school because you will all be self quarantined at home where it is safe. Teachers should stay home if they feel that the risks are too high, but let others return to work if they are willing. I will keep the kids away from grandpa and grandma, so they will be safe too.
Ultimately, we are all responsible for our own health. Wear your mask, social distance, wash your hands, eat healthy, exercise and get a good night’s sleep.
August 16th, 2020 at 12:57 PM ^
Where are you getting the info that once a student tests positive for COVID the school will shut down? That is different than every health department I have heard from. 15 minutes of exposure within 6 feet...
August 16th, 2020 at 12:11 AM ^
My four year-old has been back at pre-school/pre-k for 2 months. It's a very small class at this point (six kids, two teachers), partly due to Covid restrictions (a max of 10 people can be in her room, including teachers), but mostly due to kids not returning. My spouse and I are at different levels of okayness with this arrangement. I have more concerns, but the terrific teacher-to-student ratio in her class means that they can keep masks on 4 year-olds very well, and the small class size in general lessens the risk of Covid making it into her classroom.
At 4, she seems to be near the absolute minimum of risk should she get it, and has no remote learning options, so it's why she's there. If she were a few years older (8 or 9) and mildly capable of learning remotely, I think that's what she'd be doing, unless the class size was as small as we have now.
It's a really tough decision, and I question if I've made the correct one virtually every day (the alternative being to keep her home and cut back on working hours as we already did for three months). I honestly wish that they hadn't allowed preschools in my state to reopen so the decision wouldn't be mine, even tho I've chosen to send her.
Also, in two months our medium-sized preschool (120 kids normally, maybe 50 currently) has already had to shut down twice because a staff member became ill. If you do send your daughter for in-person schooling, be prepared for at least one closure. It's a near given, even during the first nine weeks.
August 16th, 2020 at 8:38 AM ^
My wife is a pre school teacher at UM. They have been open about a month. They utilize an extreme pod/bubble setup. Each class is totally separated from other classes and rarely go inside the building (bathrooms, washing, and rare weather breaks). All parent drop off is outside and 4 yr. olds wear masks (usually...they are adjusting). All food is brought from home and not shared. Ratios are about 8 to 10 students to two or three teachers. Cleanup ( sanitizing) is a big part of all involved. The outdoor learning model will obviously adjust come prolong rain spell or cold weather, but for now no cases in staff or students. I bet money is not being made.They have a huge outdoor area that allows for many separate “classrooms”. It can be done, but this is UM and not a private for profit situation and the families are definitely not a representative sample of families nationwide.
August 16th, 2020 at 12:13 AM ^
In KS they are rotating classes 50/50 at home and school every other week. I guess only having 50 percent of kids in school at one time will provide more social distancing. I just feel sorry for the working parents who may have to pay for sitters if the kids cannot be trusted as latch key kids.
August 16th, 2020 at 12:41 AM ^
Fortunately, my work schedule will allow me to be home during her school times and encourage further instruction and learning, I’m going to go the extra mile in helping to teach and develop her as best as I can, I’m sure a lot of other households don’t have that option, and don’t have much of a choice either way.
August 16th, 2020 at 8:32 AM ^
Is your wife an Ohio State fan?
August 16th, 2020 at 10:56 AM ^
If so, did he impale her?
August 16th, 2020 at 1:39 PM ^
Many, many times.
August 16th, 2020 at 2:06 PM ^
Underrated comment.
August 16th, 2020 at 8:32 AM ^
...and most of those sitters will come from the 15 - 22 year old age range that already is back to pre-COVID social habits and are far greater risks of bringing the disease in to a home than the 50-year old school teacher.
August 16th, 2020 at 3:53 PM ^
Yes, because no kids in your school, nor any teachers have kids in the 15 to 22 year old age group. If your child stays home and interacts with one babysitter, they are subject to all the next level interactions that one babysitter has, If a child goes to school, they are subject to all the next level interactions of their teacher and all of the kids in their class. Plus you have more ability to screen your babysitter for their interactions than you do your kids teacher and classmates.
If you are thoughtful about the babysitter you hire, you certainly can put them in a lower covid risk environment even with a babysitter than in a school. Disclaimer: my college age daughter deferred for a year and is babysitting/tutoring for a family. They have an understanding about what covid risks both parties are taking and because of exposures, there have been two incidents (one on each side, where each family has gotten tested before she could resume sitting).
August 16th, 2020 at 12:16 AM ^
My kids need the interaction of school. They will attend when possible. Data says risks are minute.
August 16th, 2020 at 12:18 AM ^
My daughters middle school is offering both options. They plan on having half the kids in person Monday and Tuesday and the other half Wednesday and Thursday with Friday off for the first two weeks and then everyone back after that.
We opted to keep her home. The area we live in is full of a lot of families who are not taking the virus seriously. The school is allowing students to reassess after each marking period. I anticipate we will keep her at home until at least the first of the year. I hate that the school is rolling the dice with this decision.
August 16th, 2020 at 12:53 AM ^
This is almost an impossible question to answer because no one really knows. Yeah according to what the WH, news networks, or expert data you read online that says the risk is blah blah blah fucking blah but the fact is we don't know. It's easy to have opinion especially if it's not your kids, but the bottom line is we just need to parent-up & make our own tough decisions.
It sounds like you've made your decision so what's the worst outcome of it? No one should fault you from playing it safe.
August 16th, 2020 at 10:31 AM ^
I feel bad for parents of children who are having a rough time with the remote learning routine. Two siblings of mine are at opposite ends of the spectrum. One has two self-contained teens on autopilot and the other has two in early elementary school who lost their marbles back in April.
August 16th, 2020 at 11:18 AM ^
Yeah, it's a much different calculus depending on the age of one's children.
August 16th, 2020 at 12:54 AM ^
I would - mine is out of high school anyway. I don't know what I would do if we had someone at home who was high-risk.
We consider school so important that we make it compulsory for 12 years - 12 years essential to development. We consider it so important that every taxpayer pays a significant portion of his/her income (often in the form of property taxes or higher rent), children or no children.
What is the cost of taking a few months out of that 12 years? It has to be extreme. So we need to take extreme measures - even if it means delaying the full opening of restaurants and bars, as is being suggested in the UK.
I would not, however, support resuming sports in the fall semester, at least. And given that a Zoom meeting for work is the purest form of torture known to mankind, I can't even imagine what kids would go through if they had to continue school like that.
Not sure how it could be done, but I think for the safety of teachers and to try and reduce spread, masks should also be mandatory for kids 10 or older. Practical? Not certain. But it may make the difference between failing at this or succeeding.
August 16th, 2020 at 12:58 AM ^
Affirmative, grandkids driving us nuts, going back asap to their charter school !
August 16th, 2020 at 12:59 AM ^
We won't be sending our son to in-person classes. He's prone to seizures when his temperature spikes suddenly, and he's only going to Kindergarten so we're not too pressed about doing online learning for him. The last thing we need right now is another trip to the ER. I know it's a tough decision for every parent though. I'm definitely praying for the health & safety of those kiddos and teachers going back and that the education doesn't drop off for those who choose to stay home.
August 16th, 2020 at 8:23 AM ^
Cudos. I think you really contextualized your child’s risks and made an appropriate decision based on rational thought instead of fear and hysteria.
probably the same decision I would make if I were in the same circumstance.
August 16th, 2020 at 1:00 AM ^
Yes, enrolled in private school. Every desk is 6 feet apart. Masks and social distancing will be strictly enforced. Class size is 10-15 kids. We are expecting to home school 4-5 times this year at two week intervals. Our kids are very excited to be going back to school even with restrictions in place. We have explained the expectations to our kids, we are excited for the school year. Based on what the science says kids need to be in school.
August 16th, 2020 at 1:01 AM ^
My junior will be completely remote until October 8th.
My seventh grader will be hybrid, one week in the building, the next week online.
My wife is a teacher and is already back in her building full time. We updated our wills this week. It is what it is.
August 16th, 2020 at 1:15 AM ^
We had the option of in person every day or remote with the option to transition to in person later on the year. We chose to keep our boys home. They are in 1st, 4th, and 5th. Wife used to be an Elem Teacher; and will be home with them all day.
I am a Middle School Teacher and am going back to an in person hybrid model where I will see my students 4 of the 5 days. Im excited to go back, but know things will not be the same. Schools will not be back to normal for quite some time.
I support parents who send their children, and those who choose to learn remotely. It has to be what is best for you and your family.