OSU and Rutgers - Per JUB
November 7th, 2023 at 3:35 PM ^
At this point, with as much information as is flying around out there, Bacon and Webb are really the only ones I can look at the updates for and say "yeah that's probably true." Especially given how truly plugged in they are to the program.
This won't exonerate Michigan. And it shouldn't. But it goes directly against this whole BS argument about a decided competitive advantage that Michigan supposedly had. Purdue had all our signs ahead of time and it didn't make a damn bit of difference. If the counter-argument is "Well you just have way more talent than Purdue," then okay, but so what?
I've been hearing for YEARS about how OSU is just so vastly more talented than Michigan across the board, and a lot of times that has been true. But if that's the counter-argument, that Purdue just couldn't compete because of the talent disadvantage despite having our signs, then Michigan having OSU's signs shouldn't have made a lick of difference one way or the other.
November 7th, 2023 at 6:05 PM ^
Talent is one thing but nobody touches Michigan in player development and JH is unmatched in that ring
November 7th, 2023 at 7:00 PM ^
You can trust Bacon. JUB is not guessing at Michigan's information, he is being given Michigan's information . . . by Michigan.
He is the faucet of drip, drip, drip.
Michigan is fighting back.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:35 PM ^
So Ohio State appears to have known Michigan's signs before the game, changed their own signs and still got beat 22 points at home.
November 7th, 2023 at 7:02 PM ^
We only know that Purdue knew our signs before their game. We don't know about Ohio State.
But if Rutgers is out there giving away Michigan signs, then shame on Ohio State for not trying to get them in advance. Which they probably did.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:35 PM ^
I woulda thought JUB was spending all his time hiring a team of lawyers to fight off the Stapleton lawsuit.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:35 PM ^
It was also Ryan Day and his 2 brothers that illegally HACKED UM computers...law enforcement is investigating
November 7th, 2023 at 4:25 PM ^
How do you know this? I want it to be true, but being evenhanded is a lost art I’d like to revive.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:36 PM ^
Was there discussion of Sportsmanship?
I'm trying to figure out how Collusion supports the "Sportsmanship" topic.
I guess it's in the "comradery of sport". Schiano was part of the Buckeyes organization at one time, wasn't he?
It's probably just an "honest mistake".
November 7th, 2023 at 3:37 PM ^
Time for Petiti to sit down and let this thing ride out with the NCAA. Or suspend every big ten coach for 2 games.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:40 PM ^
Gonna voice an unpleasant truth that this, while a bad look for all three schools and a good counter-example to what’s going on, could also be explained as something of a retaliatory strike by schools that (as is documented) already believed Michigan was stepping over the line.
Doesn’t mean it’s defensible, but neither does this in itself suggest that there was already a culture of ethically gray signal-scouting that Stalions simply built upon.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:50 PM ^
It could equally be that Michigan, knowing their signs were stolen and shared amongst conference foes, employed CS as a retaliation (equal the playing field) against said collusion.
November 7th, 2023 at 5:25 PM ^
It sounds like everyone does it to a degree, Big Ten and NCAA looked the other way, the thinking being that the teams would handle it themselves, all using the same tactics, but then someone squealed and they were obligated to address it. Singling out one school to use as an example, or whatever it is they're doing, is wrong-headed and won't turn out well for them.
November 7th, 2023 at 7:04 PM ^
culture of ethically gray signal-scouting that Stalions simply built upon
Stalions had said as much, before all of this.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:51 PM ^
OK, let's take all that as true for the moment. But now OSU, Rutgers and Purdue, having been complicit in a sign stealing scheme against Michigan are "outraged" and urging the league to take action against Michigan due to lack of sportsmanship? Explain that one.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:54 PM ^
If collusion between coaches/programs in order to defeat us (or any other program) isn't tantamount to the existence of an ethically gray signal scouting culture then I have no idea what one might look like.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:55 PM ^
Unless OSU, etc. were stealing signs before they ever heard of Connor Stalions. In fact, it seems to be a known practice that coaches/staff will contact their "friends" who work at other programs and exchange stolen signs. Somewhat of a "stolen sign exchange." Connor, not being part of that "vast network" or not knowing about it, decided to create his own scheme. It's tough for OSU and others to argue that they only did it, "...because they did it first!"
November 7th, 2023 at 3:58 PM ^
To my neighbor from Duluth:
Retaliation equates to impunity? Whatever happened to the old "Two wrongs don't make a right" adage?
November 7th, 2023 at 4:03 PM ^
Does it matter who "started it?" You hit a guy after the whistle, you get a flag, regardless of who instigated.
This gives the lie to the argument that we had a big competitive advantage, which is what should matter to the commissioner.
November 7th, 2023 at 4:18 PM ^
According to the Richard Johnson Tweets thread, the accompanying documents (which I assume are the e-mails and texts the analyst is holding) demonstrate that the collusion goes back to at least 2020.
November 7th, 2023 at 4:29 PM ^
Which is before CS joined the staff.
November 7th, 2023 at 4:36 PM ^
It's before he was hired, but he was working as a volunteer.
It is, however, before there's any evidence of the "network," which would make it hard to claim that the collusion was a retaliatory strike.
November 7th, 2023 at 4:49 PM ^
The difference between "he started it!" and "everyone is doing it" defense vectors. As the youngest of many siblings, I'm familiar with, and have used, both.
I think even taking "Michigan started it!" as the truth, these facts shows what the kids call "unclean hands". You think Michigan was scouting and stealing signs in the past two years? Why share Michigan's signs with Purdue? Why not report Michigan to the principal's office then and there?
Oh...because *you* also were doing some level of sign stealing/scouting/crowdsourcing signal decoding. Got it.
All of this boils down to one point: The Comish better be verrrrry careful about instituting mob justice this week. Especially when the hands that carry the pitchforks and torches are stained with mud.
November 7th, 2023 at 4:59 PM ^
That's a terrible defense. "They're doing it!" Who cares? You know how much work it must have been to do this level of sign stealing? Obviously, they didn't just start doing it in retaliation.
November 7th, 2023 at 5:16 PM ^
I don't think that's "truth" at all.
November 7th, 2023 at 5:17 PM ^
This is a fair point. But the correct tack by OSU et al would have been to make the allegation, rather than essentially commit the same penalty. And in their case, evidently, the decision to do this came from above. This ultimately makes what they did a worse offense, in terms of culpability and sportsmanship.
November 7th, 2023 at 7:05 PM ^
My excuse is that I'm outraged . . . is not serving our country (or the rest of the world) very well.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:40 PM ^
If UM and OSU are 11 -0 and game day wants to come to Ann Arbor I say deny them and if they do come I call on ALL in attendance to ROAST them..with signs
November 7th, 2023 at 4:04 PM ^
Respectfully, I'm not going to spend any valuable tailgate time paying ANY attention to ESPN.
November 7th, 2023 at 6:25 PM ^
2 sided signs in front, behind and on each side of the stage! Make it impossible for them to show the stage without seeing the signs!
November 7th, 2023 at 3:42 PM ^
There's a guy over on 247 that's been pretty accurate who said the next big shoe to drop is that Ohio State had our practice footage and obtained it illegally obviously.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:52 PM ^
My boss breathes from his mouth, AKA is an OSU slappy. Please, please let this come true. This news helps, but that news would be glorious
November 7th, 2023 at 3:55 PM ^
my only question is how would they know? I wonder if they caught and questioned the person recording? Or if this is part of the computer hack?
November 7th, 2023 at 3:56 PM ^
Double post
November 7th, 2023 at 3:59 PM ^
It seems clear based on all of the rumblings (as well as the putting in of the fence) that Michigan knows that someone was spying on their practices. But it's odd to me if Michigan actually knows who it is, since, unlike the other stuff (and certainly unlike the Stallions stuff), the spying on the practices is actually a big deal and would genuinely provide a real competitive advantage. Which is to say, I would have thought they would have raised it, and the NCAA would have had no choice but to act on it, at the time. Will be interesting to see if the 247 source is right.
November 7th, 2023 at 4:04 PM ^
Might lend credibility to the idea that this is selective enforcement. Maybe Michigan did bring it to their attention and nothing was done, but we decided to say whatever and not air out the dirty laundry at the time. Now with the league coming after us for this, why not put it out there?
November 7th, 2023 at 4:45 PM ^
I'm certainly not saying that you're wrong (there's been a lot surprising in this whole saga), but, even now, it would be surprising if the NCAA was aware of spying on practices and didn't do anything about it. I say that because, unlike Stallions buying a ticket for his idiot friend to go watch a game with 80,000 other people, spying on practices genuinely creates an obvious, significant, and unfair competitive advantage.
Which is to say, I agree wholeheartedly with the latter part of your comment...if that happened, and the NCAA or the B10 didn't act, Michigan's lawsuit will just be a copy of the e-mail they sent the B10 about that and the words "arbitrary and capricious" repeated 7,000 times.
November 7th, 2023 at 5:24 PM ^
Who says the NCAA actually wanted to go after Stalions? The stuff went public, and to the B1G, at the same time the NCAA got it, which forced their hand. Who knows what complaints they’ve gotten through “proper channels” and decided to quietly investigate and then put away, that never leaked?
November 7th, 2023 at 6:30 PM ^
They no longer get to quietly investigate those issues. If I was in their position, I would publicly indicate that there are active investigations into those schools as well and any judgment levied against Michigan would also be levied against them. Start issuing notices to those schools as well or allow the NCAA judgement to prevail and step back from the ledge.
The problem is that OSU would simply bring in Urban to stand in for Day! So you have to ensure that is not an option either.
November 7th, 2023 at 4:43 PM ^
There's a guy over on 247 that's been pretty accurate who said the next big shoe to drop is that Ohio State had our practice footage and obtained it illegally obviously
November 7th, 2023 at 3:43 PM ^
Ryan Day is never beating the bitchmade allegations.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:45 PM ^
Day and Schiano - two sactimonious cozy twats.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:46 PM ^
I’m shocked.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:49 PM ^
Well, well, well. I can't stop smiling at the fact that we have actual receipts for Third Base having OUR signals last year and still getting curb-stomped. Nice.
November 7th, 2023 at 7:13 PM ^
We don't know if they had them in advance of Michigan - OSU. They gave them to Purdue in advance, after Michigan - OSU.
However . . . for them to give them to Purdue that comprehensively only one week later, seems to indicate they were likely recording our signs electronically in-game . . . which is illegal.
November 7th, 2023 at 3:50 PM ^
The Athletic has finally addressed($) the new reports, with Stew Mandel calling the scandal "juicy and farcical." But he seems to still think that M is in the wrong, although he doesn't take a position in this article on what sort of penalties M should face (previously he said in-season penalties were justified)
November 7th, 2023 at 4:02 PM ^
Fuck that guy
November 7th, 2023 at 4:15 PM ^
yea, i cancelled the athletic. and there was some of their coverage i LOVED but...they're hacks.
November 7th, 2023 at 4:30 PM ^
Seriously. Through his writing in that piece and others you can see a clear anti-Michigan bias. He seems to believe that Michigan's (legal) defense and Ohio State's offense are on the same moral plane.