Michigan was a very bad inside zone team again vs PSU

Submitted by Maizen on

Michigan had much more success with their power and gap plays. They also finally put some guys in motion (still not nearly enough) and that had success as well. Is the IZ a permanent byproduct of hiring Frey, Pep, and Scot Turner or do you think at some point Michigan will realize it's simply not working (sans the IU game) and scrap it all together? As Brian said in his game recap Michigan "is caught between two different approaches on the ground." It just feels like all the clever gadget plays from the first two years and Harbaugh's Stanford teams are gone and there is no identity on offense. I realize some of that is magnified with the OL and QB issues, but there is a difference between having an average offense and the current one which is teetering on total ineptness. 

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newtopos

October 25th, 2017 at 3:00 AM ^

UM's rushing yards per attempt over the past decade hit its peak in 2010 (5.58) under RR.

UM's yards per play over the past decade also hit its peak in 2010 (6.75).

UM's passing rating over the past decade also hit its peak in 2010 (145.99).

 

Joined: 09/26/2009

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bronxblue

October 24th, 2017 at 7:02 PM ^

I think JBB has been decent at running the ball. He has his dorfs, but when he doesn't he is effective at moving the guy he's blocking. Kugler has underwhelmed, and I think Cole in his spot would lead to dramatic improvements in the running game. I sort of assume that when run or pass play gets blown up because of multiple missed blocks (as opposed to the wrong call) it's because there isn't good communication on the line, and for better or for worse that duty tends to fall on the center.

Joined: 11/22/2008

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Fezzik

October 24th, 2017 at 10:28 PM ^

I think Kugler has been solid for us compared to the rest the line. From rarely ever playing to how he is holding up this season I'm impressed. RT has been the consistent weak link but the other OL positions are taking turns struggling.

Joined: 09/11/2015

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StephenRKass

October 25th, 2017 at 9:33 AM ^

Agree and disagree with Maizen.

"Inside zone teams who are really succesful at it like Bama and Georgia run it almost exclusively."

 IIRC, Michigan ran more inside zone early this year. They want to transition, but don't have the horses yet to do so. They finally were forced to switch back to power maybe after MSU?

You just can't make inside zone work without both the coaching, the practice, and the players to implement the scheme. I think we have the coaching, but having enough players and the right players on the OL takes LOTS of time.

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TrueBlue2003

October 24th, 2017 at 7:33 PM ^

wtf this is awesome, but wtf has that been kind of games.  In their defense, we had a ton of injuries that year.  IIRC Henne didn't play in the loss to Wisconsin in the second to last game of the year and then we ran him out there against OSU, along with Mike Hart that had an ankle issue and combined with really rainy, terrible conditions we couldn't do anything on offense.

On the one hand, I wanted to see what Mallett could do, but on the other, he was terrible thus far in the season and I felt like Lloyd was letting Henne give it a go in his last game in the Big House.

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Doc Mango Gibbs

October 24th, 2017 at 6:36 PM ^

I wish I knew more about what makes an offensive line good.  I just don't get it.  Blocking people in front of you doesn't seem like it would take years to master. 

Joined: 10/23/2017

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Doc Mango Gibbs

October 24th, 2017 at 7:20 PM ^

I'm not suggesting that it's easy. I'm saying it doesn't seem very complicated from the outside, which I why I'd be interested to learn more about it.  

(Piano seems extremely complicated just watching it)

Joined: 10/23/2017

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xtramelanin

October 24th, 2017 at 8:22 PM ^

Lots of contingencies upon contingencies, split second decision timing, intense physical exertion, and trying to communicate while tens of thousands of people are screaming. Not like piano

Joined: 12/09/2014

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wahooverine

October 24th, 2017 at 9:25 PM ^

Close your eyes and imagine: you’re a tackle and Rashan Gary, or some other large, fast, strong and violently aggressive athletic gentlemen is lined up across from you and you are responsible for blocking him on 3rd down. At the snap he may go to your left, or your right or maybe straight into you. He may feint and go the other way, he may do a swim move or a rip move. Maybe the guy lined up next to him comes across you while Gary goes inside. Maybe there’s a linebacker blitz. You have to react in a split second and identify what you’re supposed to do and have the technique to mirror, move appropriately while maintaining strength and leverage against whatever happens.

That’s just in pass blocking. Imagine also run blocking in a complex, multi-formation offense and with different blocking schemes against all the stuff a good D-line can do to trick you or get you out of position.

Oh and if you fail in either case the whole play is prob blown up or at least neutralized. No pressure.

So, good o linemen are highly prized cause they can do all that stuff well and consistently.


Joined: 11/14/2011

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Blueblood2991

October 24th, 2017 at 6:39 PM ^

Completely unrelated to this thread, but not worth it's own post. For anyone wondering, both Drevno and Pep do not have buyouts on their contracts. The only people with buyouts are Don Brown (a slim $250,000) and Mattison (which is a comical $50,000).

So yes we are paying our assistants a shit ton, but they are insanely Michigan friendly contracts. This gives more credence to Harbaugh's "Meritocracy" that you will earn your paycheck. i've seen a lot of negative comments about Harbaugh hiring his coaches at high salaries strictly because they were his Stanford buddies. There's plenty to criticize, but that's just an unfair shot.

Joined: 06/11/2015

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newtopos

October 25th, 2017 at 2:47 AM ^

I couldn't find a copy of Pep Hamilton's contract online, but Jedd Fisch's 2015 contract (first year at UM) and his 2017 contract (two-year UCLA contract) are both available.  Couple quick points:

1) We're paying Hamilton a lot more than UCLA is paying Fisch.  

2) Both contracts have mitigation clauses if the University terminates the coach without cause.  (I.e., the coach is still paid his salary for the remaining portion of the contract, but is obligated to seek appropriate replacement work, and any revenue from the new job offsets the University's obligations.)

3) UCLA's contract (which, is general, appears stingier than UM's) has an interesting clause: if UCLA terminates Mora's contract or if Mora leaves, UCLA can terminate Fisch and does not have to pay him the remaining salary.  This provision overrides the clause regarding paying Fisch if he is terminated without cause.  In short, if UCLA fires Mora at the end of the year, they can fire Fisch as well, and Fisch will get nothing from UCLA for the 2018 season.

4) One of the reasons for terminating a coach with cause in the UM contract is "Conduct of the Coach which offends public decency or morality as shall be determined by the standards prevailing in the community."  If I represented the University, I would at least mention (good naturedly) to Hamilton's representative that we were considering whether Michigan's passing game this season offends public decency so as to trigger this clause.

[Disclaimer: I represent none of these parties; this is not legal advice; etc.]

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xtramelanin

October 25th, 2017 at 5:48 AM ^

"If I represented the University, I would at least mention (good naturedly) to Hamilton's representative that we were considering whether Michigan's passing game this season offends public"

and if it gets repeated game after game, that falls into the harrassment or stalking areas.  so they better get this figured out, stat.  

Joined: 12/09/2014

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Fezzik

October 24th, 2017 at 10:46 PM ^

Yeah let's call people names who did nothing to you because THEY are the asshole... That makes sense. How does our offense and what it runs not interest you? I like reading about what scheme we seem to be doing well or struggling with from game to game. Is your fandom about feeling superior to other fans?

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H8anythingState2

October 24th, 2017 at 7:34 PM ^

“This is a spiced honey mead whine that I have really been into lately.”-Maizen

“Please follow Sir Brad, he is going to give you a private tour of the Pit of Misery.”-Mod

“Dilly, Dilly!”-MGoBlog Banquet

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Perkis-Size Me

October 25th, 2017 at 9:19 AM ^

At the rate Franklin is recruiting right now, he'll bring in another Barkley sooner rather than later. Even if Moorhead leaves after this season, Franklin isn't going to go away from what works, and if you ask me, our secondary was what got burned the most that whole night. I assume at least some of the guys who burned us are coming back next year. Their run game may not be as dynamic without Barkley, but it'll still be dangerous. 

Joined: 11/30/2011

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bamf16

October 25th, 2017 at 6:59 AM ^

Depends on who your players are and what they do well.

 

My eye test: Higdon doesn't run as well behind a zone blocking OL; he's a one cut downhill runner. Isaac on the other hand, does a lot better behind that same OL with more patience and a "quick enough" first step.

 

Just watching these guys run toss sweeps, Higdon and Evans often look like they're racing to the edge, while Isaac is slower, looking for a lane to cut it up.

 

It's ok to have both in the arsenal, but in the bigger moments, what are the coaches calling? When your OL and your RB aren't great with the inside zone, why are they calling it on 3rd and 6 when trailing in the 4th quarter at a spot in the field where you're not going for it if you don't make it?

Joined: 01/05/2014

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Reader71

October 25th, 2017 at 7:45 AM ^

This is true but overstated the difference between inside zone and power. I’m of the opinion that you can’t be good at outside zone and power. But inside zone and power can work. Look at Onwenu. He’s the prototypical road grader. He can run power, although I like him downblicking on the playside more than pulling, and he is a good inside zone guy, since you get him downhill and on double teams, but I wouldn’t even have recruited him if I was an outside zone coach.

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bamf16

October 25th, 2017 at 10:00 AM ^

I'm not sure how it's overstated, but I can find something with which we agree, that the similarities between inside zone and power run blocking make success at both more probable than say emphasis on power and outside zone.

 

A covered lineman (mostly G and C) in an inside zone is using very similar technique to power to move the man in front of him. But one of the biggest obstacles to overcome in inside zone is the abandoning of the doubleteam. Once the uncovered lineman engages and creates the doubleteam, when and how is the decision made for the covered lineman to move to the second level vs. the uncovered? This is where repetition in practice, but more importantly game reps are really important. I guess it's why we saw it a lot more early in the season, even when it wasn't working all that well. Get the reps.

 

I think we as fans cared a whole lot more than the coaches did about how badly UM beat Air Force, Cinci, etc. But when you're going into the half down at Purdue with a backup QB, when you can't pass the ball in the rain against MSU, and when a better-than-expected Indiana team just won't die, cut down on the reps of what doesn't work and focus on winning the game. 

 

The other side of that is that when you can't run the ball well on 1st down, you set up 2nd and predictable, 3rd and long, and red zone troubles, allowing defenses to run downhill against the pass rush and blow up the passing game (or knock out the starting QB for the year.)

Joined: 01/05/2014

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Reader71

October 25th, 2017 at 11:29 AM ^

I didn’t mean the overstatement as a criticism of your comment. I just think you kind of conflated inside and outside zone under the term “zone”. For example, think Higdon is a pretty good runner on IZ precisely because he’s a one cut runner who likes to pick a hole and go, whereas I don’t see him being the type of guy who presses the line patiently and waits for a cut on a stretch. Your point on double teams is excellent, and it is the main difference between IZ and the doubles you see in gap blocking. On power, if you’ve got a playside tackle and guard doubling on a 3 to a mike, there’s a huge probability that the tackle will come off the double, whereas with IZ, either guy is liable to have to peel off.

Joined: 08/30/2009

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ST3

October 25th, 2017 at 12:02 AM ^

I just watched 8 offensive plays from the game. ESPNU is replaying it. I saw 1 awful blitz pickup from Evans causing a throwaway and 1 awful blitz pickup from Higdon leading to a fumble. I saw Bredeson get rocked back 5 yards and Cole not block anyone. I saw Poggi get called for an iffy penalty and Hill miss a block. I saw Schoenle fail to get a block. JBB looked competent compared to the rest of them. It is a team-wide failure. You can blame scheme or coaching or JBB or Speight/JOK all you want. The simple truth is that there is no simple answer. The entire offense is FUBAR. EDIT: watched a few more plays. Crawford completely missed a block and Gentry dropped a pass. JBB was a turnstile leading to a hurried throw and Cole gave up a sack. JOK took a delay penalty. Every play it's someone different screwing up. I hate to say it, but the offense is Hokian-level incompetent.

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Bigly yuge

October 25th, 2017 at 9:51 AM ^

I hope our 2017 offensive line class end up being studs. I like the prospect of what the OL could look like next year if those 2017 & 2016 dudes come into their own.

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