A Look At Wisconsin's O-Line Compared to Michigan's for 2018
I was talking to a buddy the other day who's a big Wisconsin fan and we were remarking at Wisconsin's ability to constantly churn out great O-Lines every year despite seemingly not recruiting many if any "high-profile" players out of high school. This got me thinking about it so I went through their entire roster and mapped out every player listed as an O-Lineman in some form, then retrieved their respective recruiting profiles. I then did the same thing for Michigan for a comparison.
I used the following website for roster and depth chart information: https://www.ourlads.com/ncaa-football-depth-charts/roster/michigan/91119
Obvious Notes:
- We have 2 less O-Linemen in total than Wisconsin does, and one additional lineman without any recruiting profile at all (3 for us vs 2 for Wiscy).
- We also have a higher average star rating (for what it's worth) and a higher average 247 composite rating, despite having two less players overall.
- Wiscy has been able to red-shirt virtually every single O-Line player on their roster; us not so much.
Just thought it'd be an interesting fun-fact for your Friday to see how both O-Line rosters stack up.
September 7th, 2018 at 11:23 AM ^
Wisconsin has a system in place and it works. Every 2 or 3 years its like the entire line gets replaced and then they throw the next round of linemen in there.
September 7th, 2018 at 12:02 PM ^
The irony is that this is exactly what Michigan used to do. For most of our modern existence, we out-Wisconsin'd Wisconsin.
For most of that time, Wisconsin wasn't shit.
God help us, I hope 20 years from now we aren't posting one of these about how we stack up versus mighty Rutgers.
September 7th, 2018 at 2:00 PM ^
this brings me back to the mystery - again - of what happened to Drevno while he was here. He clearly had success coaching the O-line at his previous stops, even at the 49ers. Maybe taking on the OC role got him too big for his britches. Maybe Drev+Frey was a bad combo. I remember the whole coaching from the press box vs. sideline drama from last year.
If OP's data is directionally accurate and we've had roughly equivalent talent, if not better, at OL, AND we had a coach on staff who has specialized at OL and sent several players to the NFL, and coached the OL for an NFL team that went to a super bowl with frank gore running the ball, sent 3 linemen to the pro bowl, why did all this success not translate to UM?
Even if Drevno lost focus while he was OC, or his heart wasn't in Michigan, or he had conflict with the rest of the staff, you'd still think he'd be able to build a serviceable O-Line with his eyes closed if the talent was indeed sufficient.
September 7th, 2018 at 2:32 PM ^
It just seems like an odd culmination of events that began with the transition from RR's type to Hoke's, holes in recruiting from both Hoke's & JH's staff, coaching turnover, probably some poor talent evaluation sprinkled in there on both staffs, a few incidents that caused guys to leave or get booted from the program, and a few decommits or misses on guys we thought we had. Some of it has to be luck (Newsome, LTT, etc.). Some of it has to be poor talent evaluation (Kugler, Dawson, etc.). Some of it has to be bad chemistry amongst JH, Hamilton, Drevno, Frey, etc. Some of it has to be coaching turnover. But, when you throw in all these things we can see the result. The question that we continue to wonder is how long will it take to fix? Only time will tell, but it seems like a few more years.
September 7th, 2018 at 3:11 PM ^
Ehhh...some things were Drevno's fault, but the OL was already in dire straights when Harbaugh and Co. got here. Had Harbaugh emphasized a need for more OL like the giant red flag it was, the program and OL wouldn't be in the state is is now.
Instead, in his 2015 transition class he picked up: OT Newsome, OT Ulizio, and OT Runyan.
Then he followed that up in 2016 (the class where it should have been a MAJOR priority with 5-6 linemen) with OT Bredson, OG Onwenu, and OG Spanellis. That's it. He signed three goddamn TEs that class. WHY?!?!?! How much better is the OL this year if 1-2 of those TEs are offensive linemen?
And even 2017 isn't that great. They got C Ruiz, OT Filiaga (now plays guard), OT Ja'Raymond Hall (now plays for CMU), OT Joel Honigford, and OT Andrew Stueber.
Four seasons in, and the OL is much worse off than it was when he got here. Because at least that 2015 OL had Magnuson, Braden, Glasgow, and Cole -- four guys that are in the NFL. Would be surprised if anyone on this current OL outside of Ruiz (assuming he improves) is headed for the NFL.
September 7th, 2018 at 4:31 PM ^
You are 100% right in that they totally re-load & it took years to accomplish that status.
I'm going to cut & paste a post I had over on Rivals, b/c the thread from yesterday over there is directly on point. Here's my post from Rivals yesterday:
******
******
Wisconsin can reload because now they have the pipeline, all they have to do is “hit” on 1-2 OL per class (recruiting 3-5 to get those hits).
But if a team isn’t there yet, in order to get to that Wisconsin type of line FROM SCRATCH, one of two things has to happen:
Scenario 1: Ideal but almost impossible.
You get a single unbelievable OL recruiting class of 5-6 guys where 2-3 are good enough as true freshmen to start, AND the other 2-3 all are good and eventually ARE quality players with redshirts intact. If you do this then maybe you don’t suffer 2-3 years of terrible OL since the D1 ready freshman plug the immediate wholes BUT you don’t suffer the “early” departures because the other 2-3 guys in the class ALL hit and kept their RS.
Basically the lucky horseshoe opposite of our 2012 and 2013 OL recruiting classes.
But this so rare. Even if you got 2 turn key OL freshmen that can plug in, most OL recruits are hard to project. They wash out, get injured, etc.
Scenario 2: short term pain & long term gain.
Step 1: Hire an excellent and proven OL coach and give him a long term contract.
Step 2: Pick a blocking philosophy & don’t change it. So even if the OL coach departs, the philosophy/technique remains constant. Try to hire the OL coach’s protege or promote from within to maintain terminology & philosophy.
Step 3: Make OL one of the top 1-2 priorities for a few cycles in a row. OVER recruit (or at least for God's sake don’t UNDER recruit) the numbers & make sure it’s a good blend of OT and interior guys. Do this for an uninterrupted 3 years even if you are insanely successful the first two years. Basically do what you think is necessary, then do another 30% more on top of that.
Step 4: Red shirt the hell out of them, even if it means sacrificing some OL production for a year or two, even if your current OL is shitty. Your fan base, boosters, QBs, media, the Offensive Coordinator, RBs, WRs, and the young OL players themselves (and their parents) will be SCREAMING at the HC and OL coach do otherwise. Those folks are all very focused on the short term modest gain you MIGHT get from ripping off a redshirt of a young & talented guy. The problem is, if that guy was going to develop into a great 5th year OL, you're basically sacrificing a HUGE upside 5th year in exchange for a very modest up side immediately (i.e., mortgaging the future OL to get a modest bump immediately).
The HC and OL coach need to ignore these people if they have interest in building the OL long term. Other than hot-seat desperation (basically a selfish move to save their own job), the only reason a head coach should even consider ripping off a redshirt IMO is if they are in a "peak" year roster/schedule-wise, and that modest bump could plausibly mean the difference in winning the conference championship or getting into the CFP. But doing it just to win 9 games instead of 8, or doing it just to beat a rival in an otherwise mediocre year doesn't seem worth it to me IMO.
Step 5: Profit.
Step 6: When it is 100% clear you have a base layer of very solid Wisconsin OL type talent in the 2 deep (with 1st string appropriately 1-2 years older than 2nd string for succession planning), AND when you know that you still have quality OL pipelines coming in the door in the next wave of recruits, THEN you can process out the OL guys you over-recruited in the initial 2-3 year surge. At that point, recruiting OL each year can return to normal numbers of 3-4 per year like Wisconsin does versus 5-7 like you were doing during the surge.
Scenario #2 is far more reliable in creating a sustainable OL long term. But, also it costs a lot of time, “political capital”, wins in the short term, and extra scholarship #s (which means your talent suffers elsewhere OR you get insanely lucky/efficient with ID'ing talent elsewhere on the roster) until you finally stabilize it at the higher plateau 3-5 years later.
As a result of all of this, unless a coach already has that great OL & only has to sustain it, most coaches, fan bases, boosters, etc don’t have the patience and willingness to TRULY invest the time & resources required to build a great OL.
September 7th, 2018 at 11:25 AM ^
Soooo what you’re saying is our O line is trash and that our coaches aren’t doing a good job ??
September 7th, 2018 at 11:28 AM ^
Braylon, is that you?
September 7th, 2018 at 11:45 AM ^
Come on man, it clearly says Marcus Ray. Geez!
September 7th, 2018 at 11:59 AM ^
I think it’s Marcus Rays dumber brother.
September 7th, 2018 at 12:07 PM ^
Have you listened to the actual Marcus Ray on BTN? Not sure he has a dumber brother...
September 7th, 2018 at 3:07 PM ^
God I wish the voting worked.
September 7th, 2018 at 11:27 AM ^
Fun-fact for a Friday? You and I have different meanings of the word fun. This is depressing.
September 7th, 2018 at 11:29 AM ^
I suppose it's more interesting than fun?...well, at least to me it's interesting just to see comparisons like this. Maybe I'm weird.
September 7th, 2018 at 11:34 AM ^
It just stinks that we have the higher rated players without the on-field success like Wisconsin. It is interesting to see the comparison.
September 7th, 2018 at 12:35 PM ^
Go get'm Blue!
September 7th, 2018 at 12:43 PM ^
...except that Wisconsin has had three head coaches in the past 7 years, which is even more than we've had. So coaching turnover in and of itself is clearly not the problem.
I agree that firing Harbaugh is a non-starter. But let's also not pretend that the ongoing issues with the O-line and other aspects of the program aren't tremendously disappointing given the level of hype he came in with. This is year four and and he's had enough time to put his stamp on the program.
September 7th, 2018 at 12:48 PM ^
They've also had Alvarez as the AD (or coach) since 1932 and he never allowed any incoming coach to make drastic changes to their system.
September 7th, 2018 at 1:50 PM ^
This.
September 7th, 2018 at 1:12 PM ^
..and they also play in the demonstrably weaker B1G West. To pick just one example, UW has lost 9 of their last 10 games against Ohio State. Sound familiar?
They've lost their last 3 games (2016, 2013, 2012) against Penn State as well.
Don't get me wrong -- they are a very good program (certainly more consistent and better than UM for the last decade) b/c they have an identity, as driven by Alvarez.
But their schedule plays a big part. If they were in the B1G East, they'd be wracking up tons of 3rd and 4th place finishes.
September 8th, 2018 at 6:26 PM ^
They also rarely schedule difficult non-conference games
September 7th, 2018 at 1:13 PM ^
Problem is "Year four" is the direct result of what happened from year -1 through year 1.
Ya know, back when it was "Crazy Jimmy" and the OMGShirtless antics to get anyone interested in coming to AA. He obviously needed to sleep over at more OT's homes.
Heck he brought it so hard he scurred the SEC and they made the NCAA stop his satellite camps. No wonder recruiting took a downturn last year.
Thankfully there are some guys in the pipeline right on the edge of being ripe and ready to go that are a definite upgrade.
September 7th, 2018 at 1:59 PM ^
Year 4 with one Freshman on the roster suggests to me they didn't learn their lesson. Yeah, Ryan Hayes is missing from the list and would give us 2 guys in this class, but I would really have liked to see 3 or 4 linemen in this class to try to build back depth. What happens if Mayfield or Hayes don't work out, or get injured or decide to transfer, or if Hayes can't put the pounds on? What happens if Mayfield is pressed into starting duties this year? We could be looking at 0 5th year seniors on the line 4 years from now. That's not a comforting thought to me.
September 7th, 2018 at 1:22 PM ^
Well stated.
I had put together this same chart and posted it yesterday in another thread.
With respect to the OLine, my main take away is the EVERY SINGLE STARTING linemen has been in their system for 3 YEARS minimum. Same coaching, same training regiments, same offensive philosophy. They have been doing it for 20+ years from now. You can’t ‘out talent’ the OLine. It’s the most developmental position in college football. And yes JH has a huge gap in bodies to fill up that pipeline. 2 more years of recruiting OL just to fill the pipeline.
Same can be said for QB. JH arrived on campus and most likely had a minor heart attack when he looked at the QB position. Peters is his first pick and he is stocking the pipeline with McCaffery and Milton. Again the benefits of the stocking the roster will show up in a year or so but for today and the past 2 years he band aided it with transfers. Hit pay dirt with Rudock, missed on O’Korn and I believe struck gold with Patterson (FWIW - I think Patterson played well against ND. Certainly better than anyone last year and better than what Rudock did in his first game)
So to wrap this up, all things are relative. To a Michigan fan 8-5 sucks. I agree there. But I have an issues with the Chicken Little’s in this fan base that cant maintain for vision or patience.
September 7th, 2018 at 3:27 PM ^
Zach Gentry was his first QB pick, Harbaugh flipped him from Texas just weeks after being named Michigan's HC.
As for how long, or not, Michigan's starting linemen have been in the Harbaugh system, all but one is in at least their third year, the two starting tackles are in their fourth and fifth season at Michigan. And let's not forget that Harbaugh told Swenson thanks but no thanks, then infamously didn't replace him. Speaking of which, in that same class of 2016 Michigan did land the nation's #5 Offensive Tackle prospect...of course he was immediately moved to OG.
September 7th, 2018 at 1:24 PM ^
You're my boy Blue!
Well said.
September 7th, 2018 at 1:30 PM ^
You do know Wisconsin has had 3 coaches in a shorter period of time right...and yet their OL is still WAY better than ours!
September 7th, 2018 at 3:16 PM ^
Yes, their OL is ... this season. They are not necessarily a better team though.
According to most metrics that account for strength-of-schedule, Michigan had a better team than Wisconsin in two of Harbaugh's first three years.
Man, I'd love to be in the B1G West. Just put our feet up and wait for the Championship Game.
September 7th, 2018 at 6:34 PM ^
Chryst was Bielema's OC, so it's not exactly like they've had whiplash. Alvarez micromanaged the hell out of Andersen while he was there before replacing him with someone from the lineage again.
September 7th, 2018 at 1:35 PM ^
So we should immediately hire Barry Alvarez?
September 7th, 2018 at 3:28 PM ^
How many seasons do we give Harbaugh?
I am not saying he deserves to be fired but this is now his 4th season. This is his team. He owns this mess.
September 7th, 2018 at 7:38 PM ^
You are correct, Blue.
September 7th, 2018 at 11:27 AM ^
17 of their 18 lineman have redshirted and the last dude is a freshman.
September 7th, 2018 at 11:40 AM ^
Every position has 1 year more experience than our OL. Also, the system has been consistent. That make a huge difference.
September 7th, 2018 at 12:22 PM ^
Aren't Hudson and Filiaga RSFR? Interesting comparrison, but bad data = Bad chart.
September 7th, 2018 at 12:46 PM ^
Bunch of guys on the MI list have red shirted. Even though it only lists one.
September 7th, 2018 at 2:20 PM ^
Harbaugh's practice is to list academic years, not football years. Hence only 5th year seniors listed as redshirts.
September 7th, 2018 at 12:57 PM ^
This is what I can't figure out.
MLive, MGoBlue, and ESPN all list the exact same data, and don't show any RS at all...just a couple of 5th year guys.
OurLads, the site I used as a source has lots of players on Michigan's roster listed as RS, just not many on the O-line. So for instance, McCaffrey is a RS FR and that's exactly how he's listed on OurLads.
So I'm not sure...
September 7th, 2018 at 1:37 PM ^
As far as I know, Bredeson, Onwenu and Ruiz are the only guys in our OL group who did not redshirt. All of the rest have.
September 7th, 2018 at 1:44 PM ^
Is there a source of truth I can look at for this info? Cause obviously the primary websites are showing conflicting info.
September 7th, 2018 at 3:16 PM ^
Mgoblue does not list RS until they are used. (meaning they play more than 4 years removed from HS) But if you click on their bio, it shows their participation by year. So for a player like Runyan his freshaman year shows "no game action". so he is a Sr, but he has only played 3 years giving him the possibility of coming back for that RS SR year.
I think other schools just list them that way as soon as they saw "no game action" in a year.
September 7th, 2018 at 3:21 PM ^
Ohh! Thank you. That's really good to know. I'll have to redo the chart then.
September 7th, 2018 at 11:28 AM ^
Lower star rating yielding better results.
Huh....You know if I didn't know better I'd swear the quality of coaching has something to do with this.
September 7th, 2018 at 11:49 AM ^
Having actual OT's probably helps too. But, the lack of such for UM outside of the true/RS freshman falls squarely on the coaches as well, just in a different way.
September 7th, 2018 at 1:26 PM ^
Mgrowold,
perhaps my sarcasm detector isn’t fully functional anymore but I’m having a hard time parsing out your stance.
This week you were all, “Maizen was right!”
Now you see Maizen’s biggest fear, lower rated recruits, yet those recruits are having all the success needed and you blame the quality of coaching.(Current or just Drevno/Frey?)
Sidenote** import all of Wisconsin’s Olinemen to M at the start of last year what is M’s record? Surely not 8-5 and 0-1.
I guess your stance is Michigan must get 5 stars but will still coach them horribly for a ceiling of mediocre?
Do you think that in the next 2-3 seasons Harbaugh will have more OL on the roster and the Filiaga/Spanellis/Stueber/Honingfords will have had that extra year the Wisc players get and M will be in better shape? Or do you just assume Harbaugh will screw it all up with zone vs power mistakes anyway?
Do you give any chance that Harbaugh learned anything from The Drevno/Frey situation and the “original sin” of not getting enough tackles soon enough (likely because Drevno was an ineffective recruiter)?
September 7th, 2018 at 11:29 AM ^
Steroids?
September 7th, 2018 at 11:30 AM ^
Either that or a steady diet of cheese.
September 7th, 2018 at 11:46 AM ^
Fried cheese curds and beer.
September 7th, 2018 at 11:47 AM ^
The diet of champions!
September 7th, 2018 at 12:03 PM ^
The steroids of junk food.