Legacy and Legends - Who did it best?
As a non-Michigander, but someone who went to UM, I don't know as much about the history of UM as most of you old timers. I'm also getting old, but I grew up a Penn State fan.
I was thinking about the legacy of some of our current and recent players, and in light of the transfer portal, how infrequent in the future we may have those types who came in, stayed, achieved great things and left with no drama. As i started thinking back, many players seem to have had some issue/beef along the way, or after their time at Michigan.
Who do you see fitting in the list of maize and blue, through and through, without any drama along the way?
To me, currently, we have Corum. If JJ does something uber special this year that shall not be named, I'd put him in this list, but if he just has 2 great seasons, I don't know where that puts him.
* Brady - Super tumultuous time at UM. Was booed by the faithful and was just the ho hum guy who went on to be the greatest ever. But his time at Michigan was full of drama
* Woodson - Almost left the team midway before he became the legend he is today.
* Howard - Was there any drama? Seems not, but before my time.
* Ty Law - Not sure what his deal was, but seemed to harbor some resentment when he was in the NFL
* Hutchinson - (the young'un) - I'm not sure his career was legendary, but he did put us over the top against a foe we had been dying to beat, got us to a B10 title outright, and took us to the playoffs.
Who else came, saw, conquered, without a blip along the way?
September 7th, 2023 at 12:56 PM ^
I read this first as Legends and Leaders and almost had a panic attack. What a weird time.
September 7th, 2023 at 1:05 PM ^
The Northern Michigan Football League (high school) still has the Legends and Leaders Division --- and a Legacy Divison too!
So if anyone wants to talk some East Jordan, Kalkaska, Ogemaw Heights or Benzie Central football, this could be a thread for that too!
September 7th, 2023 at 1:29 PM ^
How you gonna leave TC St Francis off your list?
September 7th, 2023 at 1:47 PM ^
Just trying to give some love to the conference also-rans. :-)
Per the michigan-football.com site, TCSF is a combined 111-2 against Ogemaw, East Jordan, Benzie Central and Kalkaska since 1950. 111-2!
September 7th, 2023 at 3:03 PM ^
Fair enough. Also, good lord at that record. It's like FSU in the 90s ACC.
September 7th, 2023 at 4:52 PM ^
"To hell with Benzie Central." - Bo Schembechler
September 8th, 2023 at 11:27 PM ^
Apparently we can now make that 111-3.
September 7th, 2023 at 3:12 PM ^
Just stepped over a sewer grate made in East Jordan, Michigan while playing golf in Georgia. This is not newsworthy but how often does East Jordan come up in one day?
September 8th, 2023 at 7:13 AM ^
Surprisingly frequently when talking about sewer grate production facilities.
September 7th, 2023 at 1:22 PM ^
Apparently the same idiot also named the Lincoln MkZ, MKX & MKC. To this day I couldn’t tell you which car is which, what one was an SUV? and I also still don’t know which teams were in what division. p.s. FBS & FCS is stupid too,
September 7th, 2023 at 12:57 PM ^
Rickey Leach AKA "Quicksilver lighting" would at the top of my list. And the kid in the endzone with turned out to be pretty good himself and would meet your qualifications for inclusion
September 7th, 2023 at 1:41 PM ^
mostly - except when he called us out for shitty academic standards on our team?
September 7th, 2023 at 5:32 PM ^
Dude what are you doing? Trying to stir up shit for the fun of it? Just an odd OP and odd follow ups.
September 7th, 2023 at 4:49 PM ^
Fucking badass trousers young Harbaugh!
September 7th, 2023 at 1:02 PM ^
Edit: pls delete
September 7th, 2023 at 1:02 PM ^
I think the traditional path was (and for many still is), sit your freshman year, contribute your sophomore year, and then start your junior year and either you excel then or you come back your senior year and excel. But most players have 2 years as real starters - going to the NFL early has forever been a thing. The QB who breaks out his senior year usually isn't legendary. One great year is the norm for most players, with maybe a bump up year before that lets you know "oh man it's happening."
I dont think the transfer portal changes that too much. Oluwatimi had one great year here - I'm always going to think of him as one of our best centers. Meanwhile, Cesar Ruiz had 2 good years...Will Johnson started contributing last year, like JJ started contributing the year before. If we get 2 excellent years with either of them, I think that puts them in legendary status. Heck, Hutch had a "oh he's got something" 2019 and then an injury plagued COVID year before he had a Heisman worthy 2021 - he will forever be a legend. His legacy is ending the streak.
This is college. 1 great year is excellent. a 4-year starter like Henne or Hart (or Corum, for that matter) is rare but yes, absolutely legendary. But short timers are a part of the history of this weird, stupid, lovely sport. At other schools, Marcus Dupree and Cam Newton are still legends at OU and Auburn respectively - despite just one great year each.
September 7th, 2023 at 1:17 PM ^
Was gonna say--a guy like Ruiz or Oluwatimi might make people at Schembechler hall bow down in awed respect. Who gets the crowds going is another matter.
People are mentioning some important names, though: Hart, Henne, Hutchinson (all day, IMO), Woodson (D goat!). Someone might be remembered for a play or a game: Alan Branch, standing over a PSU player after lowering the boom. Paul Sainristil doing the Paul Bunyan pose. (Though someone did that a few years before. . . ?) Biakabutuka after running over, around, and through OSU. Denard broke the NCAA single season record and scampered for a TD on his first play from scrimmage, for cryin' out loud. Might have the all-time most electric highlight reel.
And go back, my friend. Tom Harmon was the most popular man in America for a while.
September 7th, 2023 at 1:30 PM ^
Germany Schulz, Wille Heston, Benny to Bennie...
September 7th, 2023 at 1:52 PM ^
Henne was a 4 year starter, but I don't see what he accomplished. Hard, when you're the QB, to not win something important and be in the all-time great conversation. Easier for others, e.g. Hart, who are less the face of the team, traditionally, than the QB.
I don't have any issue at all with Hutch. I think the thing is, traditionally, Michigan players were judged for achievements over multiple years... winning multiple B10 titles and beating OSU multiple times. So, relative to where we were before 2021, he's probably very near the top of the list, but overall, I would say not.
September 7th, 2023 at 2:33 PM ^
Henne was a 4 year starter, but I don't see what he accomplished.
He quarterbacked us to the Big Ten title his freshman year.
September 7th, 2023 at 2:46 PM ^
he did, but he was 0-4 against OSU and that was a shared title.
Not doubting that we love the guy, just.. accomplishments don't list heavily.
September 7th, 2023 at 6:11 PM ^
I accept the idea that Henne might not be up there with the all-timers. But so many people crapped on the guy, and he was really, really good. . . if maybe not transcendent? I'm not transcendent most days, either, so. . .
September 7th, 2023 at 1:05 PM ^
Mods please delete this post so the Big Ten doesn't get any more division naming ideas.
September 7th, 2023 at 1:43 PM ^
Legals and Eagles?
Lables and Fables?
Lords and Ladies?
September 7th, 2023 at 1:08 PM ^
The OP is confusing to me. I don't recall a lot of what is being discussed.
For example, I attended every home game Tom Brady started, and I don't recall him being booed. Certainly not significantly. And I was particularly attuned to such things at the time.
Don't remember Ty Law issues or Woodson issues. And which Howard are we talking about?
And this statement about Aidan Hutchinson: "I'm not sure his career was legendary."
...what?
Aidan Hutchinson could have gone pro after getting hurt during a dismal 2020 when the program was at a nadir and fans like me were calling for the coach's job. Instead he came back, became the leader and locus of the locker room, had a DOMINANT season, came as close as any defenseman to winning the Heisman trophy since you-know-who, led Michigan to its first win over Ohio State in many years with one of the most singularly dominant performances in the history of the rivalry, and was drafted #2 overall by the local NFL team.
Aidan Hutchinson is the most important Michigan player of the 21st century. The list of guys that are clearly ahead of him in the history of this magnificent program is basically a list of guys that have won Heisman trophies and maybe a former QB or two, one of whom became Aidan's head coach.
September 7th, 2023 at 1:16 PM ^
Agree with every point you just made Stephen. The post felt like one of those conversations you get forced into during big holiday dinners with a far-away cousin who isnt a football fan and doesnt know anything about Michigan but knows you are so they want to talk.
I just saw an opportunity to post a great pic of Rickey and you-know-who.
September 7th, 2023 at 4:28 PM ^
agree - especially the Brady comment. But time for more turkey so let's just talk about whatever
September 7th, 2023 at 1:16 PM ^
I think he's trying to get a good discussion going but yea I disagree with his premise - which seems to be, you need more than one stellar season to be a legend. While there are players who've had multiple Heisman worthy seasons, that's just not how this game typically works - players are still developing, physically and mentally - and they leave before they hit their peak. It's sort of one of the joys of this game.
So yea, it leads to him saying "Hutch isn't a legend" which you very eloquently and convincingly push back against.
September 7th, 2023 at 1:24 PM ^
Here's a bit of the scoop on Woodson (from 2016)...
"Speaking on the Rich Eisen Show late last week, Woodson explained how a disagreement with coach Lloyd Carr had him on the verge of leaving transferring from Michigan to Miami. That all stopped when defensive backs coach Vance Bedford called Woodson's mother, Georgia."
Ty fought the Law and the Law won.
September 7th, 2023 at 1:50 PM ^
Correct. and it was documented in the 1997 documentary on the B10 network... with Carr talking about it specifically... Woodson was getting pissed and close to walking out.
September 7th, 2023 at 2:17 PM ^
As with many situations like this that never get discussed, Woodson's flirtation with leaving was not public at the time, not the subject of headlines or discussion, and isn't that remarkable. I strongly suspect we'd be surprised how much stuff goes on behind the scenes with our favorite teams and players that we never hear about.
September 7th, 2023 at 2:29 PM ^
100% agree - which is why I'm asking for the historic view.. not just who's the best right now. There are probably hundreds of stories of potential comings/goings that could be brought to light. Given how many folks may have considered leaving, I wonder how many almost came to UM that we never knew about.
September 7th, 2023 at 1:34 PM ^
I'm like 99.999% sure he means Desmond, unless he's randomly interjecting Juwan into a discussion that otherwise exclusively mentions football players.
September 7th, 2023 at 1:49 PM ^
Yes, just football. No comment on Juwan. meh.
Denard is a good one
September 7th, 2023 at 1:40 PM ^
TITCR
September 7th, 2023 at 1:49 PM ^
Yeah, and even if they had some challenge, obstacles, or “issues/beef” (as OP put it) during their time at Michigan, it doesn’t reduce their status as a Michigan legend. It’s a part of their story and path to greatness. Trying to figure out what player was great with 100% smoothness along the way is a useless & stupid endeavor.
September 7th, 2023 at 2:32 PM ^
The internet is a pretty useless and stupid endeavor. A blog is as well. And commenting on a post on a blog on the internet has no useful or purposeful outcome in the real world. But we do it. So take your shitty attitude and tell me more how you don't care at all.
September 7th, 2023 at 1:53 PM ^
Well, I was there too. The calls for Henson were incessant .. all week and in-game. Folks were after the next great thing well before they realized they had one right in front of them.. even though Brady was a statue.
September 7th, 2023 at 2:16 PM ^
There was certainly a QB "controversy" and quite a bit of discussion. I saw Drew play football at Brighton and even caught a bit of a basketball game he played at Pioneer when I was a student there (same year as him). Tumult may or may not be an accurate description but it was certainly eventful. The public debate was real.
The booing was not. Michigan fans rarely, rarely, rarely ever boo our own. Wanting to see Drew Henson get snaps is a lot difference than booing Tom Brady. As I said, I was attuned to this at the time: I still basically believe that you don't boo your own players, but I believed this particularly strongly in 98 and 99 and it would have left a serious mark if it had been a significant occurrence.
September 7th, 2023 at 2:36 PM ^
99 was my freshman year. How you describe it, Stephen, is how I remember it. My group of friends were pulling for Brady that year and bought jerseys with his number.
September 7th, 2023 at 3:22 PM ^
Yes. The whole thing has been exaggerated by Valenti types and others who weren't there.
I was in the student section for 1999. There were some students who wanted more Henson, especially early on. However, most were fine with Brady being the starter from the get go.
My roommates and I were never on the pull Brady for Henson hype train. I remember arguing with a few frat kids in the student section once. Not much more.
Halfway through the year it was clear Brady was better than Henson to anyone with eyes. The MSU game was the 6th game of the year. After that game there was zero doubt by anyone who was better. Really, Carr should have known before that game and not played Henson as much as he did in that game.
September 7th, 2023 at 5:06 PM ^
Weren't some people yelling "Drew" and not "boo?" My last year of undergrad was 99 and I don't remember boos in the stadium. I do recall the controversy over the golden boy vs Brady, but not the boos.
That said, to call Brady's 2000 season "ho hum" as the OP did was just wrong. That season ender against Bama in the Orange Bowl is an all-timer.
All that said, I grew up a UGA football and GT basketball fan and didn't know much about UM until my older sister started attending there in '92. Got acquainted with the Fab 5, Ty Wheatley, Ty Law, Desmond Howard, Amani Toomer, Todd Collins, et al, but the history was a mystery.
September 7th, 2023 at 9:12 PM ^
I've heard Brady never started a game at Michigan and I've heard Brady wasn't good at Michigan. Never heard that he got booed at Michigan. That's a new one for the false files.
September 7th, 2023 at 6:17 PM ^
Who you remember is personal, too, of course. But as important as Hutchinson is, I think one might make the case that Denard kept more spirits afloat during a more protracted period of pain than anyone this century. If going on to play in the NFL is a requirement, okay. But if having some sense of the person is a piece of it. . .
EDIT: Sorry, wrote this without having seen what follows.
September 7th, 2023 at 1:09 PM ^
Denard Robinson - Is one of the best college football players I have ever seen and stuck it out all the way despite insane levels of incompetence around him. Switched to running back with a broken hand to end his career because that is what Michigan needed.
He may not have conquered anything due to the incompetence referenced herein, but I will always remember him as one of the best ever at Michigan.
September 7th, 2023 at 1:13 PM ^
He beat Ohio, which is worth something even if it was a crap Ohio team. He also beat Sparty - something we also only did once in those dark times. He was the bright spot.
September 7th, 2023 at 1:39 PM ^
My Fandom started during the dark ages. I'm not from Michigan and had no reason to care for the school except for the fact that I attended. Without Denard, I don't think I'd have ever cared about Michigan sports.
September 7th, 2023 at 2:05 PM ^
Very true on the incompetence around him, especially defensively. Imagine denard with a top 20 defense and better OL play/weapons. Wonder how Harbs would have used him differently. Does Jimmy have an option type offensive playbook in him (without Greg Roman)?
September 7th, 2023 at 1:10 PM ^
Mike Hart; still the all time rushing leader at M. Yeah, he made that Little Brother comment about Sparty but it took Dantonio to make a big deal about it, otherwise it was only a wisecrack. (OK, one blip, there)
Jake Moody- our money man for FG and extra points. Not much said or done that caused controversy.
Brian Griese- just managed Michigan at QB to the undefeated and National Champion Wolverines in 1997-98.